mr2-digest Tuesday, 12 December 1995 Volume 01 : Number 061 87 MR2 mileage too high? RE: Engine "whirring" after ignition? 360s and Slide Control Turbo Specs Drip.. Drip Re:Slippery 360s Re: Suspension changes Engine noise.... License plate frames (The final chapter) Re: MR2 accessories Re: 91->93 susp changes cold starts? (no subject) 1986 Suspension changes St. Andres 350HP MKII kit. re: How's a Turbo Work? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: uunet!sirius.UVic.CA!fgibbins (Frank Gibbins) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 95 20:32:45 PST Subject: 87 MR2 mileage too high? Hi there, I have been looking for a 87-88 normally aspirated MR2 for four months now. The "must have's" for this car are, T-tops, very clean in and out, original paint, and a good maintenance record. I was also hoping to keep the mileage below 100k kms (or 60k miles). Here's the problem. I have located a car in Victoria B.C., where I live that is all this and more. Power package, new rubber, A/C, T-tops, every option you could conceive. But... it's got 121,000 miles on it (192k kms). The guy has owned it since it was a year old, and only drives it in summer. He has every receipt and does very good maintenance on it(belt, timing belt, oil changes, coolant flushes, water pump). He wants about 7500.00 Canadian. I think this is too much for ANY car with that many miles. But, I can't deny all the options, and the fact that it is a generally solid car. What I would like to know is what it the lifetime of these cars, and what sorts of things can I expect to go wrong with it in the next few months. Has anyone got a similar high mileage vehicle that is still going strong? Anyway, I just need some feedback. Thanks so much. Frank Gibbins, University of Victoria. Victoria, B.C., Canada. BMOC...Biochemists and Microbiologists on Campus Toyota MR2s on the Internet... because on the Information Superhighway, you can drive as fast as you want. Try the MR2 Web Page at http://mr2.com. Meticulously maintained by MR2 master, Geoff Seely. ------------------------------ From: uunet!BATES.MIT.EDU!BRANT Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 8:56:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: RE: Engine "whirring" after ignition? Hi Chris, I have the same problem annually with my 87 NA MKI (85K). The starter solenoid will not let the armature pull back in until it warms up. This gets progressivly worse as the temp falls below freezing. The solution that I have found is to remove the starter, usually on that extra cold sunday before final exams start, bring it inside to a workbench and spend an hour or two cleaning all of the gummy deposits out of the mechanisms. This year I flushed out the dirt & grease with penatrating- oil then relubed the bearings with white lithium grease. I also tried graphite powder on the shaft to see if it would help in the long run. Dont forget to clean the solenoid contacts, they are two copper "L" shaped pieces and a copper washer located under the solenoid end cover plate. Mine were pitted from arcing and really needed cleaning. Today it was 9 deg F. and the starter worked perfectly so I think it will be ok for another year. One other note, if you remove the starter's heat- sheild (1 10mm machine screw) before removing the starter from the engine, you should not have to remove the exhaust pipe & more as shown in the Haynes repair manual. The complete job should only take a morning of mess. Have fun Brant Binns Brant@aesir.mit.edu 87 MK-I, Red w/road salt ------------------------------ From: "Burns, James B." Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:15:00 EST Subject: 360s and Slide Control Dean G. asked about oversteer recovery in his MR2. The best thing to do is to keep practicing and experimenting, since different techniques work in different situations. In general, I've found that being slow with throttle changes but quick with steering seems to work best. I learned this at a racetrack session where we drove old police cars with bald tires on a watered skidpad, and it seems to work on my MR2 as well. As a matter of fact, after the skidpad session I took my car out on the track and while gently powering out of a hairpin turn with snowmelt running across it, the back end got loose. I instinctively made a steering correction but didn't change the throttle much and it worked perfectly - smoothly came back in line without snapping around the opposite way. The instructor said, "Very nice correction." which really helped my confidence. As I said before though, different techniques work for different situations and you have to practice and learn this. I've found that if lifting in a turn caused the slide, then getting on the throttle can help. But if the slide happens while at a constant speed or accelerating, then more throttle just makes it worse, but an abrupt lift is bad, too. This is where a quick steering correction and gentle easing of the throttle works well. There's nothing more fun than balancing the car in nice four-wheel drift. Autocrosses are great for learning these techniques since you can practice slides relatively safely and without getting arrested. More than once I've gotten sideways in a slalom then snapped around to an opposite slide and back and forth like this so that I cleared every cone while sliding sideways between each one. Not the fastest way through a slalom, but a good learning experience and a lot of fun. :-) Good luck. Have fun, but be careful and stay safe. Brad Burns '94T black ------------------------------ From: uunet!aol.com!CybrRacn54 Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 10:43:27 -0500 Subject: Turbo Specs In a message dated 95-12-12 06:19:23 EST, you write: > My Trust turbocharger is a Mitsubishi TD06 20G, Trust either can't >or won't give me any real information on it. Does anyone out there >have any quantitative or even qualitative data on this turbocharger? >The A/R ratio, a compressor map, how the compressor or turbine compare >to the stock turbocharger, efficiency data, anything would probably help. > > Unfortunately, turbos that are made from major manufacturers tend to lack any specifications and the makers just shrug when asked. I've also asked about Toyota's CT-9, CT-12. and CT-26, and not even Turbonetics know anything. A friend of mine also called Trust for turbo specs and they acted like they just started working there yesterday. Gerald San Agustin 88 Twincharger Cyber Racing, So Cal. Cyber Racing -> World's Fastest Honda : ET - 11.60 @128 mph (uncorrected for elevation) Battle of the Imports, December 10, 1995 ------------------------------ From: "Brown, Curtis" Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 09:47:00 PST Subject: Drip.. Drip Hello all; I am a little bit P___ed off this morning, I just dropped of my 92 red non Turbo this morning, here's the reason and my question; Last night after a hard day at the office. I get off the BART train and I walk to my car (Which in some strange way makes me happy) Jump in and I hear drip drip drip. I turn my head to the right and I see it; right in the upper right corner if the window there is a constant leak. So after playing with the top opening and re closing it, I give up and this morning I storm back to the dealer where I bought it less than two weeks ago. Now for the question. Is the "Dealer" responsible for the repairs, or am I? and if I am does anyone have a "guesstimate" on what it range of cost is. Thanks all for letting me vent :) Sincerely "KC" Curtis Brown ------------------------------ From: uunet!aol.com!Battmain Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:42:14 -0500 Subject: Re:Slippery 360s In a message dated 95-12-12 06:23:16 EST, Dean G A nearby industrial park beckoned us, and as I >rounded a snow packed right-hander, low and behold the tail started coming out . . . >(hmm, opposite lock) . . and out . .( uh, err) . . and around . . . and around . >.(whine, slobber, "relax Molly, I'm sure we'll stop sooner or later" ) It's possible that you went into the corner without power. This transfers weight to the front of the car making the back lighter. When the back is lighter, the tire contact patches are smaller and that equals less grip. > I'm still trying to figure out what I should have done or not done >to recover. I'm assuming I lifted mid-turn but can't recall for sure. Don't bother trying to figure out what you did, it is VERY DIFFICULT! Unless you have a video camera, just try doing it again and again untill you feel that you can produce both power on oversteer and trailing throttle oversteer. Each type is handled differently. e.g.-trailing throttle oversteer--you're supposed to go back on the accelerator to transfer the weight to the back, (make tire patch larger) but try telling that to the part of the brain that tells you to lift some more. I have my experience from the track in various race prepped cars, including the MR2. (And by the way...I still spin on the track! Un-intentionally of course! ) >At one of last years autocrosses, one of the hot shoes was telling all about >what I should do to my car (despite the fact that I don't really want to do anything >to my car besides drive it) and swore that all older MR2s have a limited slip (he >doesn't own a Mr.2 by the way) Take their advice with an open ear, but listen more to owners of the same type of car. Everyone can learn something new everyday. My 93 NA doesn't have limited slip, although I wish it did. Some corners, like at the Sebring hairpin, I can hear the inside rear tire spinning when I accelerate out. Best suggestion on this one is to get your seat time. When your times get consistent, then try changing the setup of the car. The reason is that then you'll know if the setup was what changed your times. (Faster or slower.) I---End Message from The Batt Mainframe----------------------I I Brian Lyn Fatt SCCA S. Florida Region SSB MR2 I I Email: battmain@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (de' free one!)I I battmain@aol.com I I MBRK38A@prodigy.com I I 71650.1262@Compuserve.com I I------------------------------------------------------------I ------------------------------ From: uunet!aol.com!Battmain Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 13:42:20 -0500 Subject: Re: Suspension changes In a message dated 95-12-12 06:23:16 EST, "KC" writes: > I'm new here and forgive me for asking what maybe a repetitive >question, I just purchased a >92 non turbo (red) and I am a little upset about hearing that I could loose >control due to the "toe angle". Does anyone know of another solution without >"drilling new holes" ??? I really feel uncomfortable and want to correct >this potential problem. I thoroughly enjoy my MR2 and plan on pumping it up >a little. i.e... exhaust sys, better cables, maybe a header-I'm still >researching the process and the $$$. Second question any ideas ?? If I may >ask be direct, I want to get it right. Not to be snappy or anything, but try some track time instead of spending the money on the suspension. If you feel uncomfortable now with spinning, the track or a high performance driving school is the best place to experience this type of stuff. I guarantee you'll have fun and you will find the limits of the car on the track. With the track time, you'll have much more fun enjoying your 'hopped up' MR2. I---End Message from The Batt Mainframe----------------------I I Brian Lyn Fatt SCCA S. Florida Region SSB MR2 I I Email: battmain@bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us (de' free one!)I I battmain@aol.com I I MBRK38A@prodigy.com I I 71650.1262@Compuserve.com I I------------------------------------------------------------I ------------------------------ From: Derek Motloch Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 13:55:57 -0500 Subject: Engine noise.... Chris said: - ------- Date: Mon, 11 Dec 1995 16:47:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Engine "whirring" after ignition? Hi there, Does anyone know what might be causing my MR2's engine to "whir" after starting up. It's not misfiring and I'm unable to trace where the noise could be coming from. It's almost as if the starter motor isn't cutting out after successful ignition. I'll also add that it starts everytime and that reving the engine seems to make no difference. The "whir" stops after 2-3 seconds. - --------- I Said: - ----------- Tell me a bit more about your car..... I think I know what the noise is you are complaining about.... but I don't want to tell you (scare you) until I know for sure. tell me the milage, the history, and year.... I own a 91 NA..... and it had the same problem.....there is a fix...nothing to major..but it should be looked after quickly. - --------------------------------------------- Derek Motloch - 91na dmotloch@serix.com http://serix.com/~dmotloch/ - --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Carl Johnson Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 14:33:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: License plate frames (The final chapter) Alright, everyone who has ordered frames should have them by now. I have a nagging feeling that I missed an order because I have 2 frames left. If you haven't received your frames let me know. Please let me know soon because I have people waiting for the "maybe sold" frames. Thanks again to everyone who placed an order. Carl '89 MR2 (resting comfortably until the spring) ------------------------------ From: uunet!softy.softwords.bc.ca!geoff Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 13:09:18 PST Subject: Re: MR2 accessories Matt G. wrote: > About the bra, there's a one-pice design available for '91-'92, then a > 3piece for '93 and up. Is there any reason why the newer 3 piece design > won't fit my MR2 ? And mudguards aren't even listed as an option for pre-'93 > MR2s, yet all the MR2s I've seen on the road appear to have identical > geometry around the lower wheel wells. The '93+ models have a revised lower front air dam. It's bigger at the bottom than the '91 so the 3-piece will probably fit but will be "baggy" from the extra material. Yes, the '93 mudguards fit on my '91 nicely. Geoff '91t, 159,200km ------------------------------ From: uunet!softy.softwords.bc.ca!geoff Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 13:13:53 PST Subject: Re: 91->93 susp changes bob rogers wrote: > 4. the 91-92 mr2 rear tires would change toe angle as the suspension > compressed. if you are cornering with throttle and change to brake the angle > of the rear wheels will suddenly change, which can cause loss of control. > they corrected this problem for 93. in the mr2 archive there are reports of > 91's being retrofitted with 93 rear end, but it involves drilling new holes. Not if you replace enough parts :-) Kostas Chryssos has detailed the required parts upgrades on the Web site to upgrade from 1991 to 1995 suspension. It's strictly a bolt on conversion. Geoff 91t, 159,200km ------------------------------ From: uunet!netrunner.net!hkphoto (howard kuflik) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 17:24:32 -0500 Subject: cold starts? I have 86 MR-2 Mk-1 that will not idle at all when cold can someone E-me with Diagram of the cold start system if it available? or tell me the sequience to check to find the problem. After it is warm it run great... Thanks Howard ------------------------------ From: Derek Motloch Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 17:56:04 -0500 Subject: (no subject) Hey gang, anyone ever had problems with a speedo cable freezing up? My car is at Toyota right now getting both front, and back speedo cables replaced...as well as the housing that holds it in the transmision...... labour will be like 3+ hours..... Doesn't look to cheep....... but its got to be done...cruise doesn't work... I can't tell how fast I'm going....and the odometer doesn't turn.... WAIT...that's not to bad! - --------------------------------------------- Derek Motloch - 91na dmotloch@serix.com http://serix.com/~dmotloch/ - --------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: uunet!tcplink.nrel.gov!broderij Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 17:45:24 mdt Subject: 1986 Suspension changes Aly, You are correct. The '85 had the same rear toe change "problem" that the '91 has. The toe change is caused by body roll, and when combined with lift throttle in a hard corner creates tremendous oversteer. Toyota "corrected" this in 1986 by removing the rear anti-sway bar and equalizing the effective length of the rear trailing arms and tie rods. If you park next to an '86-'89 and look under the rear, you will see the difference in t-arms and t-rods. The '85 is actually the fastest NA MKI for autocross racing. It just takes some getting used to. You could find all of the '86+ parts, and make the change, but I think you would be disappointed. A simple and cost effective approach to correct the problem is to install a larger Suspension Techniques anti-sway bar on the front end only. This will tame the tail-happy rear end, while making the '85 MR2 respond with quicker initial turn-in, and flatter cornering. This setup will make the car very driveable, forgiving, and fast. The '86-'89 suspension geometry can take advantage of a larger rear anti-sway bar and performs best with the addition of both front and rear Supension Techniques anti-sway bars. John Broderick Mr.2 Performance Products 1-800-4MR-2003 mr2@earthnet.net ------------------------------ From: uunet!norden1.com!stiltner (Matt Stiltner) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 95 20:11:10 EST Subject: St. Andres 350HP MKII kit. I saw the ad in the new SCC and I was drooling. I called Mechtech a few weeks ago about the VATN and they still don't have it ready it is having massive failure problems. So I called up St. Andres when I saw they had advertised a 350HP kit. I got a guy named Eric on the phone. Asked him about it, includes the following: Upgraded Turbo EVC VBC Air Filter Exhaust NOS kit (I assume a 75HP one). The reason I think all this stuff is HKS is because the total amount that the stock injectors can take is 283HP...add 75 w/ the NOS and you have ~350HP. I asked how much. 5000 US Dollars. Not cheap by any measure, but if you break the parts down into assumed cost, it works out to being not so bad. ~3000 for the HKS Sport Turbo ~EVC/VBC (one of these is 1K dollars, I remember that) Exhaust+Filter+NOS=1K. So while it is expensive, it is the best thing to go fast for the MK2 right now. I told them to keep one in stock for me. He also told me about 1500 to install the whole kit. I need something to spend my bonus on, and what better. Matt Stiltner Pro.Image Nerds, Geeks, Computers, Graphics, Web Publishing... ------------------------------ From: uunet!getnet.com!doug (Doug Hutter) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 15:34:05 -0700 (MST) Subject: re: How's a Turbo Work? Thanks to all of you who explained the basics of how a turbo functions. My lovely wife says thanks. Then she said, "How does that differ from a supercharger?" DOUG HUTTER PHOENIX, AZ ------------------------------ End of mr2-digest V1 #61