mr2-digest Saturday, 8 March 1997 Volume 01 : Number 880 MR2 sticking gearshift Mk 1 MR2 Message not deliverable Re: MR2 MKIIT Blow Off Valves MR2 MK1 Clutch replacement MR2 dave cristall's problem MR2 Mk1: Lowering it. Oh yes. MR2 william brandt concern Re: MR2 some interesting info that may cause a panic! MR2 MKI- sc &intercoolers Re: MR2 MKI- sc &intercoolers MK1 MR2 steering problems MR2 C&D shootout and radar detectors MR2 Roadster shootout in Car & Driver MR2 stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "William L. Brandt" Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 01:40:07 -0800 Subject: MR2 sticking gearshift Mk 1 My white '86 went though the same thing. I heard that it was clutch wear! But the car didn't slip. You'd really have to force gear lever into 1st... Another Toyota mechanic told me that it is caused by dirt getting in the throwout bearing. Problem has gone away...for now. If it was the synchros wouldn't you hear the gears grinding when upshifting? I had a Camaro years ago with the junky Muncie transmission - 2nd gear synchros would always go out & car was hard to upshift... Bill William L. Brandt wlb@calweb.com Sacramento, CA ------------------------------ From: "Administrator" Date: 08 Mar 1997 05:31:05 GMT Subject: MR2 Message not deliverable Status Distribution The message regarding "mr2-digest V1 #879" sent on 3/8/97 3:25AM was addressed to the following invalid recipients. PETER DIEFENTHALER at HSOS2P01 Please consult your cc:Mail Administrator. ------------------------------ From: "Kostas G. D. Chryssos Ph.D." Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 18:41:52 +0200 Subject: Re: MR2 MKIIT Blow Off Valves At 17:26 07/03/1997 -0500, you wrote: >I've noticed that aftermarket blow off valves are a popular upgrade on >turbo cars, and I was wondering what their real benefits are. At what >boost level does the stock blow off valve become inadequate? Does the >stock valve respond a whole lot slower than an aftermarket one? Do the >aftermarket ones significantly improve performance and turbo longevity, >or do people just like the way they look and sound? > >Brad Burns > > > Brad Hi, Seems that the stock is NOT a blow-off valve after all. If you take out the stock MR2 one and look at it you see that the pressure cannot open it since it works in the same way the spring does. It is the vacume in the plenum that opens it, so it is used to release boost when the throttle is closed ONLY. Our stock system depends only on the wastegate for over-boost. Maybe this is the reason those blow-off valves are so popular Kostas G.D.Chryssos Ph.D. ELFON Ltd. 30 Ikarias str., Glyfada GR 16675 Athens HELLAS (GREECE) Tel: + 301 9628212 Fax: + 301 9628539 e-mail: sv1bt@otenet.gr - sv1bt@compulink.gr ------------------------------ From: Matt Smith Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 12:33:09 +0500 Subject: MR2 MK1 Clutch replacement It is that time to replace my clutch. I was racing this Eclipse GSX at the stop light and I unloaded on the clutch and it was about 3 seconds before the engine decided to get going. It's pointless to have a fast car if it won't go. I have a 1988 SC and I was wondering how difficult it is to replace the clutch myself. My friend did his on his GTI and I did it on my 1979 MG Midget. Is it major problems? If so, what are the advantages to getting a beefier clutch put on it? (centreforce?) Any advice on where to buy and what to do would be helpful. Thanks! Oh, BTW, I was down in daytona beach on sunday March 2 and I saw a car identical to mine. It was the same color blue SC as mine. Was this any of you all? Matt Smith shorty@vt.edu 1988 MR2 MK1 Supercharged ------------------------------ From: Jeff Bihn Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 12:16:22 -0600 Subject: MR2 dave cristall's problem dave, i think this is a natural toyota mkI problem. i had an 86 n/a for a few years and after time they just wear out. my mechanic and a toyota engineer told me the same. my mkI could never get into 1st, so i had to trick it. i would go fourth to first to get into the first gear from a light. i almost couls never get it into 2nd when driving the car. i had asked if it cost alot to fix and they told me yes, with the answer being the tranny should be rebuilt. they said since they had to take it apart to replace parts and gears that i should just have the whole thing redone. anyways that is what happened to me. i didnt get rid of my mkI because of this, basically it got stolen. 8( type to you soon jb REBEL MOTORSPORTS (601-875-3164) visit us at - http://www.southwind.com/~jsbihn/ ------------------------------ From: Jorn Innset Date: 08 Mar 97 19:15:58 +0000 Subject: MR2 Mk1: Lowering it. Oh yes. Spring has finally arrived in Norway, and my mate Inge and I set forth installing the Tokico springs I bought last fall to complement my yellow Koni's. We started around noon, and finished around 5:30 PM (including a coffebreak). I measured the distance between the tyre and the arch on all four corners both before and after: | Before | After - ----------------+---------------+--------------- Left front | 65 mm (2.56") | 30 mm (1.18") Right front | 60 mm (2.36") | 30 mm (1.18") Left rear | 55 mm (2.17") | 25 mm (0.98") Right rear | 60 mm (2.36") | 30 mm (1.18") I guess my (probably) original Toyota springs really needed replacement, as the new springs made the car have identical distance tyre - arch all around. Sort of - I guess the left rear probably was lower since I had just stepped out of the car. How about performance? After a short drive we concluded that the car was definitly stiffer, more sincere. The dive when breaking was almost non-existant. And the lower look of the car made a huge difference - the Mk1 has way too high a ride, and lowering it makes it look downright mean. The wheels really fills the arches well now. The new springs has also made the car a whole lot more tailhappy, which I'm not too sad about...:-) I'm gonna have a camber/caster adjustment in a few weeks, to sort out the handling. And install the HKS lightweight flywheel and the Centerforce dual friction clutch I *also* purchased last fall. :-) One bad thing about the new springs - the left front tyre occasionally rubs against one of the nuts on the arch. I'm going to have to get a nut with a smaller head, I guess. Funnily enough, there's no problem on the right side. It might have something to do with my weight, though. :-) The rubbing was there before as well, but the new springs made it slightly worse. I can't wait to get out on the track to try it out, but that will have to wait until the clutch and flywheel are installed. Jorn - -- __ Amiga /// | Jorn Innset | Check out my /// | jorni@sn.no | homepage at __ /// | | \\\/// | Thor 2.3 | http://home.sn.no/~jorni \XX/ ------------------------------ From: Jeff Bihn Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 12:28:01 -0600 Subject: MR2 william brandt concern hello to all, in response to bill's concern about the head gaskets, i have this to say. the toyota supras have an extremely bad problem with their head gaskets going bad. this is a really bad problem for them. i have a supra that i am sponsoring in n. california and i called to get a price on one of these. they are not cheap. the supra people are trying to get a petition together to force toyota to realize the problem and do something about it. toyota knows it is happening but they really want do anything or admit to it. if we can get a petition together also, we can send it in to toyota for them to recall the toyota head gaskets and have them be replaced. see, even if we dont have a problem now, we may in the future because of this. consider it and let me know. i will manage the petition if anyone is interested. also, let any other mr2 or newer (88+) toyota what we are trying to do. toyota is a very good company, but every now and then even the good ones need a push start (car pun). - -- type to you soon jb REBEL MOTORSPORTS (601-875-3164) visit us at - http://www.southwind.com/~jsbihn/ ------------------------------ From: whitemr2@juno.com (Matt Gawlowski) Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 13:32:19 EST Subject: Re: MR2 some interesting info that may cause a panic! >Should you do the same? If you've installed the red Toyota antifreeze, >consider it. Again, they haven't proven this conclusively but on engines >that have been flushed earlier and replaced with non-factory coolant, and >have been torn apart, head gaskets show no signs of corrosion. This is an >internal search and Carey has a top mechanic at a dealer who was telling him >this info... This is very interesting, Bill! Hmm, I KNOW we've dicussed coolant in the past, but I don't think there was ever a consensus to wheter NON-TOYOTA coolant would damage the system? If I flushed all the Toyota stuff out and installed some Prestone, for example, it should be just fine, right? Matt Gawlowski, '91 White NA MR2, whitemr2@juno.com http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/8906 ------------------------------ From: " Andrew N." Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 11:15:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: MR2 MKI- sc &intercoolers Howdy, With all of this talk about superchargers and intercoolers, I was wondering if any of you folks have tried centrifugal superchargers and if these deliver more power than the rootes type? Also I was wondering how much power a larger than stock intercooler produces, such as the one that people are buying via the group purchase? Andrew P.S. I am looking for a low mileage 88-89SC NOT RED. - --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com - --------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Dan Barnes Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 12:43:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: MR2 MKI- sc &intercoolers On Sat, 8 Mar 1997, Andrew N. wrote: > With all of this talk about superchargers and intercoolers, I > was wondering if any of you folks have tried centrifugal > superchargers and if these deliver more power than the > rootes type? > Andrew This is not something I have thought much about, but now that it is mentioned, it seems interesting. It is possible to kluge a big Paxton centrifugal blower, more commonly seen on 5.0 Mustangs, into a Civic, but the install would be much neater on the MR2. This would allow doing all sorts of silly things with boost levels, without any lag problems. You wouldn't have to mess with twincharging, either, because the capacity of the blower would be so much greater than the engine. Anybody out there know more than I do about Paxtons, or have you seen anything like this done? What about you guys with turbocharged MKIs - is there some technical aspect of the problem that makes a turbo inherently superior? Dan Barnes dabarnes@orion.ac.hmc.edu Under the Smog MISTRS2 http://www2.hmc.edu/~dabarnes/carguy.html These are just opinions, and only my opinions. They may be wrong, so don't act on them in a way that could cost you lots of money without getting several others first. They aren't the opinions of my school or my employer. ------------------------------ From: "ncheng@slip.net" Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 15:00:53 -0800 Subject: MK1 MR2 steering problems I just drove my friend's 85 MR2. His steering felt a lot tighter and heavier than my 85 MK1. Come to think of it, my car is a tiny bit too light for manual steering. His car had last body roll and just had a more solid feel. His car is bone stock and my car is stock except for tokico illumina's. Is it the springs? Is it the bushings? help!!!! reply by email too!!! :) thanks! Norm ------------------------------ From: Phil Cutajar Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 18:01:15 -0500 Subject: MR2 C&D shootout and radar detectors Greetings digest, I have a copy of the April Car & Driver, with a shootout between Porsche Boxter, BMW Z3, and Mercedes SLK. From what I see in the pics and the results I'd say the Boxter is in a class by itself, a lot like the MR2. The price is around $40k. Seeing this new charmer from Porsche I'd say the new Toyota MRJ will have a big challenge. One strage thing about the Boxster though, the engine is only accessible from below the car! Another odd thing, the skidpad result was 0.81g on Bridgestone Potenza S-02 tires. C&D claims the tires are the cause for the poor skidpad numbers. Other performance is decent, 201hp at 6000 RPM, 0-60 in 6.2, quarter mile in 14.8 at 93 mph. I'm not ready to dump my MR2 yet, but if I ever grow tired of it (not likely in the next couple of years) the Boxster may be a natural progression. For anyone looking for Radar detectors, C&D did another radar detector shootout. The Valentine One came out way ahead of the pack, including the price category ($399 ouch!). But, if your licence is points challenged then Valentine is your only insurance. It's range in all bands excluding lidar is double any of the others(in lidar its only marginally better), and it also has the widest angle of detection (105 degrees front and 154 degrees rear). Furthermore, its VG-2 proof (can't be detected by police detectors - very important in Canada and certain states). Overall scores are as follows: Valentine-One: 97, Bell-855STi: 54, Escort-Solo: 48, Cobra-RSA-515: 45, Whistler-1490: 42, Uniden-LRD-6399SWS: 41. - -- Phil Cutajar 93 MR2-T, Arctic White mailto:cutajar@ibm.net ------------------------------ From: Phil Cutajar Date: Sat, 08 Mar 1997 17:23:55 -0500 Subject: MR2 Roadster shootout in Car & Driver Greetings digest, I have a copy of the April Car & Driver, with a shootout between Porsche Boxter, BMW Z3, and Mercedes SLK. From what I see in the pics and the results I'd say the Boxter is in a class by itself, a lot like the MR2. Best of all, it's priced around $40k. Seeing this new charmer from Porsche I'd say the new MRJ is going to have one hell of a challenge. One strage thing about the Boxster though, the engine is only accessible from below the car! Another odd thing, the skidpad result was 0.81g on Bridgestone Potenza S-02 tires. Performance is decent, 201hp at 6000 RPM, 0-60 in 6.2, quarter mile in 14.8 at 93 mph. I'm not ready to dump my MR2 yet, but in a couple of years this could be a natural progression. - -- Phil Cutajar 93 MR2-T, Arctic White mailto:cutajar@ibm.net ------------------------------ From: Steve Bagdon Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 18:07:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: MR2 stuff Forwarded message: >From major@validgh.com Sat Mar 8 15:49:06 1997 Date: Sat, 8 Mar 97 12:51:54 PST Message-Id: <9703082051.AA07840@validgh.com> To: owner-mr2@validgh.com From: owner-mr2@validgh.com Subject: BOUNCE mr2: Message too long (>5000) >From tools@tooltech.qc.ca Sat Mar 8 12:51:49 1997 Return-Path: Received: from netra.validgh.com (netra32) by validgh.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA07834; Sat, 8 Mar 97 12:51:49 PST Received: from Obiwan.microtec.net by netra.validgh.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id MAA20940; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 12:51:51 -0800 Received: from tom (as51-2-ppp1.microtec.net [205.236.248.77]) by Obiwan.microtec.net (8.8.2/8.6.12) with ESMTP id PAA24104 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:52:02 -0500 Message-Id: <199703082052.PAA24104@Obiwan.microtec.net> From: "Tommy Guttmann" To: "mr2 Digest" Subject: Mk1 SC Intercooler Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:50:43 -0500 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Sorry if this has been definitively explained before, but I've heard > from several people that the Supercharged car intercooler airflow is > non-existant, and from others that the natural flow is from underneath > the car and out the engine lid vent. If I put the car on cruise > control, have a buddy steer from the passenger seat, and half-way crawl > out of the car and put my hand on the engine lid vent i should be able > to tell, right? Either there will be a sucking or blowing effect, > right? Or neither. I want to know the truth! If anyone can give me > some details, though, I'd prefer staying firmly planted in the driver's > seat. Good idea ! Modern automotive aerodynamics have evolved into a complex science. In fact, its effects are so great, that in F1, its accepted that the differences between one design and another in this regard "alone", are probably the greatest single advantage (or disadvantage) between otherwise comparable designs. It is commonly known and accepted that the underside of ALL cars is an extremely high pressure area, which manifests itself in the form of a phenomenon known as "Lift" at high speeds. This is yet another reason (besides low COG) why Racing Cars are low to the ground and have front air dams, splitters (and a multitude of other aerodynamic aids) to minimize the effect of all this air passing underneath the car and its negative effect on handling. Spoilers are just one thing that is used to counter lift and keep the car on the ground. I used to own a 67 E-Type Jag that had so much lift, that at 150mph, turning the steering had about the same effect as trying to steer on ice, but I digress... Anyway, the point is that there is a LOT of High pressure under your MR2. This comes up thought the engine compartment and has nowhere else to go but though the only opening available. This is through the IC and out the vent on the Hood. BTW, its important that the IC seal extremely well against the hood to minimize any bleeding off of the air exiting through it. Furthermore, the hood is a low pressure area, which is why most OE spoilers and fancy aerodynamic tack-ons are virtually useless...especially at low speed. This low-pressure area, may actually have somewhat of a vacume at speed, caused by the negative pressure created by the back window area (thats why the OE louvers face forwards). > On a related note, I am considering the SC intercooler upgrade mentioned > by Tommy (too bad it's expensive), Yeah, you're not alone. Thats always a problem. In this case however I think one has to consider that this is a "one-time opportunity" only possible through a group purchase. > and wonder about the claim that it > doesn't cause premature wear on the engine. I understand that > detonation is reduced by cooler air, but I don't understand the claim > (layman scientist that i am) that the cooler air "isn't much denser" and > does not cause more pressure on the cylinder. If someone could explain > this in more detail that would be much appreciated. This was explained as... > > Intercoolers have the added benefit of effectively improving the engine's > > Volumetric Efficiency (VE) by increasing the density of the intake air. > > Volumetric efficiency is a measure of the engine's ability to pump air, > > expressed as the pressure in the cylinder at the bottom of the intake > > stroke, vs. ambient pressure. Technically, lowering the temperature > > doesn't necessarily increase pressure in the cylinder, but it does > > increase the mass of air available for combustion. Either way, the > > result is the same, added power for a given level of boost." Hopefully this explains it... > I spoke with John Broderick at MR2 PP and he suggested I try cooling the > stock intercooler down with ice water to experience (albeit very > briefly) what the effect of an upgraded intercooler might be like. Hmm...IMHO, feasible if you're on planning on using boost for about 10 second intervals between these cool down procedures. However, I doubt you could cool it down anywhere near the level of a Monster IC like this one, nor would you have replicated the less restrictive flow through it and its plumbing. >He > also suggested mounting a fan, which he sells, flush on the bottom of > the intercooler, and sucking air through the intercooler from the top > intercooler vent (hence my above question about airflow). I remember > hearing about someone experimenting with such fans, and that the results > weren't good. I don't remember the details, however, and if anyone does > they would be much appreciated too. Re IC fans on the Mk1 SC, again, its been proven that there is adequate airflow at speeds as low as 20mph to minimize any effects a fan may have. So, unless you're Drag Racing and want to reverse the direction of flow to cool things while idling, the benefits of this will be questionable once up to speed. Again, See the excellent article by Dave Kucharczyk on the SC at: http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/SuperChargerInfo.html This should be considered "mandatory" reading for all SC owners. > The added fans on the Mk2. seem to > work quite well. The Mk2 set up is completely different and should not be brought into this conversation, to avoid confusion. At this point, I guess I should try to explain that once all the orders are placed and production has started, its unlikely that further orders will be feasible on an individual basis. I mention this because I'm still getting mail from people (3 more today), asking me to tell them "next time" I get a group order going. Well, there isn't going to be a next time...at least not for me. Once "I" have my Intercooler, there is no reason for me to go through this again. Tommy Guttmann tools@tooltech.qc.ca Montreal, Canada tel (514)633-6644 fax (514)633-1680 Mk1 SC ------------------------------ End of mr2-digest V1 #880