Another Black Top Swap Begins: Project Tuesday.

[FelipeT]

Greetings all!

First, many thanks to you fine folds for this site. I've been reading a lot on here and have learned a great deal. Since I'm new here, a little introduction...

After many years, I've finally gotten myself an MR2 (I've wanted one since high school, when a friend of mine had a white 85 hardtop, and subsequently a black, non-turbo 91 T-top.) Mine is a white 87 T-top which I got cheaply because it didn't run. The price was such that even if it wasn't something simple to fix, it would still be worth it. Well, guess what--it was simple. I needed a new engine...

And I have one! I picked up a 20V Black Top with (supposedly) uncut harness, transmission, and computer. I'm already starting to regret it. Either this engine came out of a car that was wrecked hardcore, or shipping was unkind to it. Either way, it's pretty banged up. I don't know if there is one accessory pulley that is still round, there's a hole in my cam cover, and, worst of all, the plenum is damaged. Oh, and that "uncut" harness... Well, it's actually two harnesses--and both are cut.

So far, what I've learned:

The distributor cap from a 94-97 Previa (Wells PN: JP962) looked like a promising substitute for the 20V cap. It was used with the same rotor, but was clocked differently. Alas, the mounting tabs were slightly off. JP964 and JP968, which were also used with the same rotor as the Black Top (JA995) in other Toyota models looked even less likely to work, as they had only two mounting ears.

I'm missing one of the connectors to the ECU. This would be really annoying, but as it turns out, the connectors from a '93-97 Mazda MX-6/626/Ford Probe are identical. Yes, all three ECU connectors match, and I happen to have plenty of those sitting around. So, if you ever damage your 20V computer connectors, just go to a junkyard and snip them off of a Probe. They won't be hard to find there!

So, some questions I've had to far, that I haven't really found an answer to in my searches...

Is the factory Black Top header mild steel or stainless? If it is mild steel, I'm thinking of cutting off the flange, and welding two elbows and a Y-pipe assembly to it. If it is stainless, then it might be a little more tricky. Any other suggestions for dealing with the exhaust?

Are there any US market cars that anyone has run into that have suitable plug wires that can work on the 20V, or am I stuck getting the originals? Oh, did I mention that my ignition wires are damaged and the distributor cap is broken, too?

Will the camshaft seals or valve cover gasket from a later A-series work on the 20V, or am I going to have to add that to my order of JDM parts when I get my timing belt and distributor cap?

Toyotapartscheap.com has the water pump for $105.58. Is this about what I can expect to pay? If it is, I think that I'm going to hold off on that until the next time the car is due for a timing belt change.

So, I'm left wondering if it really was worth it after all...

Anyway, I think that is all for now. Thanks all!

[mr220v]

I can resolve your harness issues, and whatever else the importer left out. Send me a PM if you're intrested in my harness service. The service includes any plug you might be might be missing.

[mr220v]

You can order the cap, wires, seals, and a lot of other parts for the 20v from aaron at lithia toyota (vendor on this board). He also makes a custom Bpipe for the 20v header.

If you ended up with a reasonably clean motor, there shouldn't be a lot to do in the way of replacing parts.

If you want to post pics, I can probably tell you what can and can't be reused from the 16v motor. The 16v crank pulley can, for example, be used on the 20v. You can use the 16v alternator, and if you want A/c, you're best off using the 16v a/c compressor. A dented airbox is ugly, but not a big deal. Lots of guys with blacktops ditch the box anyway.

The main judge of a good motor is the color of what's inside the motor. If it's silver or golden, it's good. If it's black with tar, it's less than desirable.

[te51levin]

Thanks for the mention, mr220v. There is a surprising amount of 20V stuff available in the US, and we can get more from Toyota than I thought we could.

I've got the stuff I need to build a few more 20V downpipes and hope to have a couple done this weekend for standing orders. I'll be building more as I find time so there's no need to modify the 20V header. The pipes I build make the exhaust a bolt-in affair.

[FelipeT]

Originally Posted by mr220v

I can resolve your harness issues, and whatever else the importer left out. Send me a PM if you're intrested in my harness service. The service includes any plug you might be might be missing.

Thanks, I appreciate the offer. I've heard nothing but good about your work on here. However, I want to do the wiring myself. I'm one of those oddball few that enjoys doing the wiring. Truth be told, I'm starting to think that wiring is going to be the part of this swap that I enjoy most.

Yes, I know how much of an oddball that makes me.

Of course, that doesn't mean that I won't be on here asking questions about it!

Originally Posted by mr220v

You can order the cap, wires, seals, and a lot of other parts for the 20v from aaron at lithia toyota (vendor on this board). He also makes a custom Bpipe for the 20v header.

Thanks. So I've heard (read...) I'll probably end up going this route for parts soon. I think that currently, the plan is to compile a list of everything I need, then, once I get it ordered, start working on the harness while I wait for the stuff.

Originally Posted by mr220v

If you ended up with a reasonably clean motor, there shouldn't be a lot to do in the way of replacing parts.

A lot of the stuff I'm looking at replacing doesn't "need" to be replaced, but I'm kind of picky. For me, if I have a motor out, it is almost always standard practice to replace vacuum hoses, cam seals, crank seals, and the oil pan gasket. It is all reasonably cheap, and it will never be easier than it is now.

Originally Posted by mr220v

If you want to post pics, I can probably tell you what can and can't be reused from the 16v motor. The 16v crank pulley can, for example, be used on the 20v. You can use the 16v alternator, and if you want A/c, you're best off using the 16v a/c compressor. A dented airbox is ugly, but not a big deal. Lots of guys with blacktops ditch the box anyway.

I'm planning on re-using my 16V crank pulley. The one on my 20V doesn't look to be out of round under cursory inspection, but it does look like it has made contact in a few places, and I'm pretty sure that if it were measured for runout, it would be obvious.

As far as the AC goes, does anyone keep it? I keep going back and forth on whether or not I want to keep it. If the 16V ran, I could find it if my AC even works. I would really hate to go through the trouble of keeping it, only to find out it doesn't work. I'm in AL, so it would be nice to have, but at the same time, it doesn't bother me that my 76 RA29 Celica doesn't have it, and it's brown!

Anyway, I think that I will proceed as if I'm going to have AC, and hope that the damn thing works!

Dented? I guess that I was a little vague. If my plenum was only dented, then I wouldn't have mentioned it. The lower lip is crushed so it won't come close to closing, making it all but useless. If I can't find a replacement, I guess that I'll try to practice some hammer and dolly techniques, but I think that this is well beyond my metal-bending abilities.

I just hope that I can find one of those guys you've mentioned that have ditched their airbox!

Originally Posted by mr220v

The main judge of a good motor is the color of what's inside the motor. If it's silver or golden, it's good. If it's black with tar, it's less than desirable.

You know, that was the first thing I checked when I got it! For now, I'd give my motor a B-. It's dark, but, at least from what I can see through the oil cap, it doesn't look like it has sludgy tar deposits. We'll find out when I take off the valve cover, as soon as I can get a replacement gasket!

Also, while on the subject, I've read that the 7AFE oil pan gasket is the same. Can anyone verify this? Mine doesn't look to be leaking but... You know!

Originally Posted by te51levin

Thanks for the mention, mr220v. There is a surprising amount of 20V stuff available in the US, and we can get more from Toyota than I thought we could.

I've got the stuff I need to build a few more 20V downpipes and hope to have a couple done this weekend for standing orders. I'll be building more as I find time so there's no need to modify the 20V header. The pipes I build make the exhaust a bolt-in affair.

I expect to be e-mailing you a list in the coming days. I just want to make sure that I don't miss anything!

As far as the downpipe goes, the one you make is absolutely beautiful, but I'm still undecided for two reasons: First, for me the point of doing a project like this is to do as much as I can myself, and while I know that I can't produce anything like the quality you have, I also know that I never will if I don't practice my welding! Second, I don't have a factory exhaust, I have a piece of modern art, which can at best be described as a performance piece by members of the rust community to do an impression of a factory exhaust. Or, in other words, I'm planning on fabbing up my own custom (read: short) exhaust. Is there any way that you can make up a downpipe which ends right after the flexpipe? Alternately, can I get just the flange? I know that this isn't your day job, so what kind of a turn-around time are you working with right now?

[mr220v]

In my experience, the diy'er with an uncut 20v wiring harness does better than the one that is trying to work with a cut harness. Check out the padandwheels blacktop wiring writeups. They are a great BT wiring reference for someone with an uncut harness....although I take a different approach to wiring the 20v, because I have to do both cut and uncut.


On the AC, with the 16v clutch, it's basically 1 magnetic clutch control wire. It runs from the grey strut tower plug to the A/C. It's very easy to keep a working 16v compressor. Using the 20v compressor is a bit of a problem.

Taking a look under the oil cap, or getting the photo, is the first thing people should do when buying a motor. Most broken external stuff is cheap to replace and forgivable, for example you can probably replace your airbox for $50. It's getting a sludgy motor that turns what should be a $1500 project into a $2500+ project.

Check out club4ag for a replacement box. Most of the rwd corolla guys have no use for the box as it points the wrong direction.

[FelipeT]

Originally Posted by mr220v

Check out club4ag for a replacement box. Most of the rwd corolla guys have no use for the box as it points the wrong direction.

Good idea. Will try that. Thanks!

[te51levin]

Originally Posted by FelipeT

Also, while on the subject, I've read that the 7AFE oil pan gasket is the same. Can anyone verify this? Mine doesn't look to be leaking but... You know!

Well, yes and no. The 7A oil pan will bolt on to the 20V block, but technically there is no oil pan gasket. I know the aftermarket sells them, but Toyota does not; they seal their oil pans with FIPG sealant instead. Which reminds me - complete blacktop engine overhaul gasket sets are CHEAP!

04111-16330 - $175.15 - gasket set, engine overhaul, blacktop 20V

Originally Posted by FelipeT

As far as the downpipe goes, the one you make is absolutely beautiful, but I'm still undecided for two reasons: First, for me the point of doing a project like this is to do as much as I can myself, and while I know that I can't produce anything like the quality you have, I also know that I never will if I don't practice my welding! Second, I don't have a factory exhaust, I have a piece of modern art, which can at best be described as a performance piece by members of the rust community to do an impression of a factory exhaust. Or, in other words, I'm planning on fabbing up my own custom (read: short) exhaust. Is there any way that you can make up a downpipe which ends right after the flexpipe? Alternately, can I get just the flange? I know that this isn't your day job, so what kind of a turn-around time are you working with right now?

Thanks for the compliments! Sure, I can build a short one to just past the flex section if you like. Figure about $175 for that. If you want to practice your welding, I can sell you the same thing in pieces, ready to weld up, for about $130. Or I can sell you the flange for $35. On my side-job stuff, all prices include ground shipping in the US. Turnaround time on a built unit is two or three weeks right now.

[FelipeT]

Originally Posted by te51levin

Thanks for the compliments! Sure, I can build a short one to just past the flex section if you like. Figure about $175 for that. If you want to practice your welding, I can sell you the same thing in pieces, ready to weld up, for about $130. Or I can sell you the flange for $35. On my side-job stuff, all prices include ground shipping in the US. Turnaround time on a built unit is two or three weeks right now.

Getting the pipe in pieces sounds awesome--You're the man! It really sounds like a win-win, since I get to practice my welding, but I don't have to spend a load of time sourcing bends, flex pipes, etc.

I'm still trying to figure out everything I will need (work has me pretty busy this week, which is good, because I could use the overtime.) It's kind of funny that you should mention the complete gasket set for $175 as "cheap." I, too, work in auto parts, so I know that a lot of people would balk at that price, but I also know that you're right--it is cheap! For the moment, I really think that I can get away with the valve cover gasket, spark plug tube seals, and cam/crank seals.

That reminds me, I still haven't taken off the valve cover (I don't want to do that until I have the new gaskets in hand) but I did get my miniature inspection flashlight to get a closer look down the oil filler cap. Everything looks good--no sludge! It's not as pretty as my Probe's V6, but that isn't really a fair comparison since I've owned that car since new and it's only had Mobil-1 oil changes since break-in, along with regular engine flushes. No tapping lifters here! (A lot of people have trouble with that on the Probe's HLAs.) I think that the next time I change the valve cover gaskets on the Probe I'm going to take pictures just to have a frame of reference for what an engine should look like. You'd never think the car has over 100K miles and is 14 years old.

Back to the MR2... I've got the engine out of the car, I just need to lift the car enough to pull it away. It will probably be Sunday before I get to work on that, however.

Thanks for all of your help so far, guys!

[te51levin]

Originally Posted by FelipeT

For the moment, I really think that I can get away with the valve cover gasket, spark plug tube seals, and cam/crank seals.

We (US Toyota dealers) don't have access to the valve cover gasket or intake cam seal because they're not used on anything officially imported into the US, and I don't think there is an aftermarket equivalent to that seal, either. For some reason Toyota does stock the complete gasket set and timing belt though. The exhaust cam seal is the same as any other 4A-GE, and the spark plug tube seals are shared with the 1MZ-FE, so of course we can get those:

90311-35040 - $6.84 - Exhaust cam seal
11193-70010 - $2.26 - Spark plug tube seal (x4 = $11.04)

Let me know when you want that downpipe kit. I'm pretty much ready to ship after this weekend. For OEM parts I need you to call and pay with a credit card, but for the exhaust stuff I take Paypal via my personal email address.

[FelipeT]

Originally Posted by te51levin

We (US Toyota dealers) don't have access to the valve cover gasket or intake cam seal because they're not used on anything officially imported into the US, and I don't think there is an aftermarket equivalent to that seal, either. For some reason Toyota does stock the complete gasket set and timing belt though. The exhaust cam seal is the same as any other 4A-GE, and the spark plug tube seals are shared with the 1MZ-FE, so of course we can get those:

90311-35040 - $6.84 - Exhaust cam seal
11193-70010 - $2.26 - Spark plug tube seal (x4 = $11.04)

Let me know when you want that downpipe kit. I'm pretty much ready to ship after this weekend. For OEM parts I need you to call and pay with a credit card, but for the exhaust stuff I take Paypal via my personal email address.

I see... Rats! It's a shame to have to get a complete gasket set just for the valve cover gaskets, but so it goes...

Does anyone have any idea if the valve cover gaskets were available in New Zealand? I know that it was strictly a JDM motor, but I thought I would ask.

If you could, e-mail me at ftorrejon *at* earthlink *dot* net with your personal e-mail so I can at least get the B-pipe ordered. I should have the rest figured out soon. It's been a busy couple of weeks at work.

Next question: does anyone re-use the stock oil-cooler, or should I just cap it off and not worry about it? I like the idea of an oil cooler, but I don't like the idea of increased complexity and decreased reliability. I've been reading about a lot of really messy oil leaks...

[mr220v]

You might be able to get some of these gaskets out of pass racing. I believe they keep the hydraulic tensioner in stock.

The stock oil cooler typically goes unused. Just cap it off and ignore it.

[te51levin]

Originally Posted by FelipeT

If you could, e-mail me at ftorrejon *at* earthlink *dot* net with your personal e-mail so I can at least get the B-pipe ordered. I should have the rest figured out soon. It's been a busy couple of weeks at work.

I understand, it's busy here too. I am just trying to aquire or build a bender so I can make hangers rather than buying them, and once that is sorted, I'll send you an invoice for the pipe.