Toyota MR2 Message Board - View Single Post - Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction

mrturrari · 06-29-2008, 08:42 PM

I'm seeing a lot of posts with people asking how to make power on a 5SFE and getting some pretty unhelpful responses. So I put this together to maybe help them out:

Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction

First let's just get this right out in the open. NA power is never cheap and it is not something you can just throw together expecting great results. You can't just turn up the boost to hide mismatched parts or poor design like many of the turbo guys do. The benefits though are quick throttle response and predictable, consistent power which is very desirable at the limits. The power comes from the combination of all the right parts and synchronicity of design so everything is going to have to be working together to give you a great results.

Ok so where do you start? As has been said by myself and others many times, "Always start with the cams". I'll give TomsMR2 credit for spreading that very important point.

More then anything else, the cams determine where your torque will be and how much of it you will have. The cams are responsible for the highest torque peaks you see in any dyno graph. Everything else, valve size, valve angle, ports size and shape, whatever is all secondary to this. These other things are not going to be significant road blocks until you are trying to get all of a motors potential and we are going to be no where near that. The problem is you need to plan ahead so your cams match your ultimate goals. Don't buy a mild set of cams and expect them to be able to take you much past 150rwhp.

The second most critical part is the header. A good header will take torque from places you don't need it and add to places you do. Pipe diameter and primary length are the two most important things to look for although you should also make sure the pipes are mandrel bent with smooth transitions and a good collector.

The third most important is the exhaust. Mainly it just needs to be smooth and not too restrictive or too big at the RPMs where you want to make power.

For practicality I am going to split 5SFEs into 3 groups:

Mild Build

First group is the mildly built 5SFE. 99% of all current 5SFEs fall into this category. Cams are either stock or mild enough not to require tuning (294 grind equivalent) or fuel system modification. These will have all bolt-ons, just the stuff you find from board vendors or on ebay. They would include the basic I/H/E (intake/header/exhaust) and sometimes things like a shaved head or a lightened flywheel. We have all seen these builds producing everywhere from 110-145rwhp and are often still reasonable gains for the money.

For this level a header with 1-5/8" primaries and 28" or longer runners will probably give you the best overall power. Generally a 4-2-1 header will give you less of a peak but a broader power band if that is what you want. Avoid really short runners and anything with 1-7/8" or larger outside diameter primaries. Those would put the torque gains beyond the power range of the cams. The exhaust should be at least 2" up to 2-1/4" OD and be as smooth and high flowing as possible. Mandrel bends are best. A stock turbo exhaust works ok at this level and if you need a CAT to pass inspection then get a high flow one to put somewhere before the muffler.

If you pick your parts right you can spend less then $1000 and gain more then 30rwhp which puts you right up there with the gen2 3sge but with more torque. Focus on the cams, the header and the exhaust. All other mods at this level are minimal gains.

(Bare minimum)
Colt cams or Webcam 294: $400-600
Shims to install cams: $0-140
Header: $150
Exhaust: $100-600

Performance Build

The second group is for 5SFEs with street performance cams. On an NA anything above the 294 with more lift (up to 9mm) or duration up to a 101 grind or 272 advertised duration in my opinion would be in this group. These require larger injectors and tuning to be safe. They also generally require upgraded valve springs (3SGTE for rev1 or 2JZGTE for rev2) because of the extra lift. Check your coil bind and if you don't have 0.360" travel from the base circle then upgrade them.

The header needs to be something a little more purpose built but some of the ones you can buy will do. Runners can be a little shorter but I wouldn't go less then 24" and the primary diameter can be a little bigger if you want more top end. 1-3/4" diameter should be about perfect for this level. Power will move up closer to red line between 5000-6000rpms so you will want a 2-1/2" high flowing exhaust.

You don't have to raise the red line or do any bottom end mods to have usable power but at this level it is something to consider because with these cams you will able to use it. If you already have a piggyback then it is an easy thing to overclock the 5s ECU and retune. It actually got rid of some of the querkiness I had with the larger injectors. The only concern is the rod bolts when you start going past 6500rpms. It is a good idea if you exceed this to grind the crank and put in 3s rods or find an upgraded 5s bolt (no one has found some yet that I have seen for a reasonable price except the slightly stronger later model 5SFE ones from Toyota).

This is also the level where some other mods are going to start to have a greater effect like having a custom intake manifold, bigger throttle body, head porting, larger valves and higher CR. Again if you pick your parts right you can get some decent gains for reasonable money and still have a little room to grow. Since no one has dynoed one of these yet I can only guess on power levels. Probably 150-180rwhp depending on what other supporting mods are done. The highest on record 5SFEs fall somewhere in between Mild and Performance because they had the fuel control but only mild cams. A 150rwhp or higher 5SFE should be able to be built for for less then $2000 if you find the right deals and install everything yourself.

(Bare minimum)
Webcams 763 or 101 grind: $600
Shims to install cams: $0-140
Valve springs: $50-100 plus a head gasket if you have to pull the head to install them
Header: $150-300
Exhaust: $100-600
295cc or 315cc Injectors: $50-100
Fuel Controller: $250-700
Wideband O2 (if you want to tune it yourself): $250-450
Tuning (on a dyno if you need someone else to tune it): $100-400

(Going to town)
3s rods: $200-500
Shaving the head (poor man's CR increase): $40-80
Custom Pistons (rich man's CR increase): $650
+1mm valves: $400-600
Porting $0-800
Rebuild costs: $300-500
Custom Intake manifold: $200-600
60mm Throttle Body: $100

Racing Build

This is where things start to get serious and parts need to be custom made. All the things that uninformed people always list as needed to get power from a 5SFE seem to fall into this.

Cams at 288 advertised duration or higher with lifts from 9mm to as high as 13mm, shimless buckets, double valve springs, oversized valves, professional head work, EMS mandatory, forged rods, custom high CR pistons, upgraded ignition, high flow oil pump or dry sump, balanced bottom end, light weight everything, custom header, custom intake manifold, you name it. Racing is expensive so be prepared to empty your wallet but the sky is the limit. If you really want to build a 5SFE to its potential then contact me and I can help you figure out what you need.

I know this is a pretty general overview but it should be a good start for someone. Helpful comments or questions are welcome in this thread but if you want to expound the glories of the engine swap or forced induction please put it somewhere else.

Thanks,
MrTurrari

06-29-2008, 08:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 404 Thanks: 2 Thanked 90 Times in 58 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction I'm seeing a lot of posts with people asking how to make power on a 5SFE and getting some pretty unhelpful responses. So I put this together to maybe help them out: Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction First let's just get this right out in the open. NA power is never cheap and it is not something you can just throw together expecting great results. You can't just turn up the boost to hide mismatched parts or poor design like many of the turbo guys do. The benefits though are quick throttle response and predictable, consistent power which is very desirable at the limits. The power comes from the combination of all the right parts and synchronicity of design so everything is going to have to be working together to give you a great results. Ok so where do you start? As has been said by myself and others many times, "Always start with the cams". I'll give TomsMR2 credit for spreading that very important point. More then anything else, the cams determine where your torque will be and how much of it you will have. The cams are responsible for the highest torque peaks you see in any dyno graph. Everything else, valve size, valve angle, ports size and shape, whatever is all secondary to this. These other things are not going to be significant road blocks until you are trying to get all of a motors potential and we are going to be no where near that. The problem is you need to plan ahead so your cams match your ultimate goals. Don't buy a mild set of cams and expect them to be able to take you much past 150rwhp. The second most critical part is the header. A good header will take torque from places you don't need it and add to places you do. Pipe diameter and primary length are the two most important things to look for although you should also make sure the pipes are mandrel bent with smooth transitions and a good collector. The third most important is the exhaust. Mainly it just needs to be smooth and not too restrictive or too big at the RPMs where you want to make power. For practicality I am going to split 5SFEs into 3 groups: Mild Build First group is the mildly built 5SFE. 99% of all current 5SFEs fall into this category. Cams are either stock or mild enough not to require tuning (294 grind equivalent) or fuel system modification. These will have all bolt-ons, just the stuff you find from board vendors or on ebay. They would include the basic I/H/E (intake/header/exhaust) and sometimes things like a shaved head or a lightened flywheel. We have all seen these builds producing everywhere from 110-145rwhp and are often still reasonable gains for the money. For this level a header with 1-5/8" primaries and 28" or longer runners will probably give you the best overall power. Generally a 4-2-1 header will give you less of a peak but a broader power band if that is what you want. Avoid really short runners and anything with 1-7/8" or larger outside diameter primaries. Those would put the torque gains beyond the power range of the cams. The exhaust should be at least 2" up to 2-1/4" OD and be as smooth and high flowing as possible. Mandrel bends are best. A stock turbo exhaust works ok at this level and if you need a CAT to pass inspection then get a high flow one to put somewhere before the muffler. If you pick your parts right you can spend less then $1000 and gain more then 30rwhp which puts you right up there with the gen2 3sge but with more torque. Focus on the cams, the header and the exhaust. All other mods at this level are minimal gains. (Bare minimum) Colt cams or Webcam 294: $400-600 Shims to install cams: $0-140 Header: $150 Exhaust: $100-600 Performance Build The second group is for 5SFEs with street performance cams. On an NA anything above the 294 with more lift (up to 9mm) or duration up to a 101 grind or 272 advertised duration in my opinion would be in this group. These require larger injectors and tuning to be safe. They also generally require upgraded valve springs (3SGTE for rev1 or 2JZGTE for rev2) because of the extra lift. Check your coil bind and if you don't have 0.360" travel from the base circle then upgrade them. The header needs to be something a little more purpose built but some of the ones you can buy will do. Runners can be a little shorter but I wouldn't go less then 24" and the primary diameter can be a little bigger if you want more top end. 1-3/4" diameter should be about perfect for this level. Power will move up closer to red line between 5000-6000rpms so you will want a 2-1/2" high flowing exhaust. You don't have to raise the red line or do any bottom end mods to have usable power but at this level it is something to consider because with these cams you will able to use it. If you already have a piggyback then it is an easy thing to overclock the 5s ECU and retune. It actually got rid of some of the querkiness I had with the larger injectors. The only concern is the rod bolts when you start going past 6500rpms. It is a good idea if you exceed this to grind the crank and put in 3s rods or find an upgraded 5s bolt (no one has found some yet that I have seen for a reasonable price except the slightly stronger later model 5SFE ones from Toyota). This is also the level where some other mods are going to start to have a greater effect like having a custom intake manifold, bigger throttle body, head porting, larger valves and higher CR. Again if you pick your parts right you can get some decent gains for reasonable money and still have a little room to grow. Since no one has dynoed one of these yet I can only guess on power levels. Probably 150-180rwhp depending on what other supporting mods are done. The highest on record 5SFEs fall somewhere in between Mild and Performance because they had the fuel control but only mild cams. A 150rwhp or higher 5SFE should be able to be built for for less then $2000 if you find the right deals and install everything yourself. (Bare minimum) Webcams 763 or 101 grind: $600 Shims to install cams: $0-140 Valve springs: $50-100 plus a head gasket if you have to pull the head to install them Header: $150-300 Exhaust: $100-600 295cc or 315cc Injectors: $50-100 Fuel Controller: $250-700 Wideband O2 (if you want to tune it yourself): $250-450 Tuning (on a dyno if you need someone else to tune it): $100-400 (Going to town) 3s rods: $200-500 Shaving the head (poor man's CR increase): $40-80 Custom Pistons (rich man's CR increase): $650 +1mm valves: $400-600 Porting $0-800 Rebuild costs: $300-500 Custom Intake manifold: $200-600 60mm Throttle Body: $100 Racing Build This is where things start to get serious and parts need to be custom made. All the things that uninformed people always list as needed to get power from a 5SFE seem to fall into this. Cams at 288 advertised duration or higher with lifts from 9mm to as high as 13mm, shimless buckets, double valve springs, oversized valves, professional head work, EMS mandatory, forged rods, custom high CR pistons, upgraded ignition, high flow oil pump or dry sump, balanced bottom end, light weight everything, custom header, custom intake manifold, you name it. Racing is expensive so be prepared to empty your wallet but the sky is the limit. If you really want to build a 5SFE to its potential then contact me and I can help you figure out what you need. I know this is a pretty general overview but it should be a good start for someone. Helpful comments or questions are welcome in this thread but if you want to expound the glories of the engine swap or forced induction please put it somewhere else. Thanks, MrTurrari