3sgte build

DangerousType · 10-21-2009, 09:48 AM

Hey Aaron, was wondering if you could figure out the mystery as to why people recommend ( mechanics, force induction junkies ) to upgrade my fuel delivery system. (injectors, fuel pump, rails..etc). Here's my build

3SGTE GEN2 :

short block:

Bore: 86.5mm
wiseco piston
eagle rods
bearings acl/or clevite (cant remember)
cometic 1.5mm head gasket
arp head studs
oem oil pump
oem waterpump
belt..
etc..

head:

kelford cams rated 258
1mm oversized supertech valves
springs and retainers
full port and polish job

sorry if this information is too little, just need a general idea, The turbo im gonna be using is a ct20b. So the question is do i have to upgrade my fuel system to run a ct20b? ive already manage to pick up and install the walbro 255 but i was recommended that since the head will flow more air that i need bigger injectors...( but even with bigger injectors, would be useless without an ems right?). Do i need to upgrade my fuel system to run a full port and polish head?

DangerousType · 10-21-2009, 02:58 PM

anyone ?

mr2magic · 10-22-2009, 06:54 AM

Prolly because the GEN3 which used the CT20b had 550cc injectors as standard (factory overkill) whereas the GEN2 used 440cc. If you smack a CT20b on a GEN2 and want to get the maximum out of it you're going to be at the limit of what the stock pump and 440cc injectors are capable of.

My 0.02!

HarrisRacing · 10-22-2009, 02:14 PM

Get the bored fuel rail and the FPR...or just get the bored fuel rail and some 550's. But yes, I would upgrade one of those two parts of the fuel.

Patrick

DangerousType · 10-22-2009, 03:41 PM

Thanks for the .02nts fellas, i apreciated.. But curiosity makes me wonder if i can run this head with just 440cc injectors?? To think about it, ct20b turbo in a 2nd gen without the use of 550cc has been a fact and establish already right? why is it different when you throw in the variable of a fully ported head instead of stock when the rule of thumb is when you upgrade to larger turbo, you need to upgrade your fuel delivery system? No mentions of the head... this is why i posted this on atsracing thread so i can get an answer from at least Aaron...

mr2magic · 10-22-2009, 04:49 PM

It only becomes critical when you're pushing the limits. If you smack on a CT20b and keep a reasonable amount of boost you're prolly not gonna have a problem (prolly!) If you push the envelope though......I wouldn't want to take that chance. Don't forget - with a p&p the gen2 head has a better VE than it was ever designed for, so you're flowing more air (plus increased boost!) than toyota ever thought you may reasonably flow - ergo you run lean.....bad karma!!! I would say upping the fuel pressure is a minimum if increasing boost by that much - adding 550's or even supra 800cc injectors is just a failsafe.

Anyone else care to comment??

HarrisRacing · 10-22-2009, 05:17 PM

I am running 266 whp and 272 wtq on my stock gen 3 motor (forged pistons), and stock CT20B at only 15-16 psi. I think 440s can handle that, but the fuel rail definitely should be bored and I am going to highly recommend the FPR mod from ATS as well. The gen 3 rail is bored bigger from the factory to prevent fuel pressure drop-off at high demand.

Anyway, run the 440's just watch your fuel when you tune.

The point being, the head isn't going to make THAT much more flow as the turbo is the limiting factor now. Sure it could make more in the midrange and such, but on top end the turbo will be done. I found that bumping from 16-18 psi only made 4 whp difference on the top end. At the bottom it made 20 ft lbs of torque though and the difference slowly tapered as rpms went up.

Patrick

MR210 · 11-01-2009, 04:14 PM

It would really be a shame if that nice motor got shot because of slightly small injectors.

DangerousType · 11-01-2009, 11:37 PM

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DangerousType · 11-01-2009, 11:38 PM

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Sang · 11-02-2009, 01:46 AM

I don't want to step on Aaron's toes by posting here, but...

Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerousType

The turbo im gonna be using is a ct20b. So the question is do i have to upgrade my fuel system to run a ct20b?

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerousType

ive already manage to pick up and install the walbro 255 but i was recommended that since the head will flow more air that i need bigger injectors...

You need a bigger rail more than injectors. The stock rail cannot flow well enough to compensate for a bigger fuel pump. Injectors closest to the t-belt will run more pressure and gradually go down as you move down the rail closer to the distributor where Injector 1 should be close to stock pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerousType

( but even with bigger injectors, would be useless without an ems right?).

Could go rom tune. But 550's aren't needed with a 20B. You are knock limited more than fuel limited at 16-17psi and 270-280 whp. Even if you have 550's, you're still knock limited to ~17-18psi. So either way, if you want more power you're going to need race gas. And since race gas is very tolerant to rather high AFR's, you can run the 440's pretty lean.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DangerousType

Do i need to upgrade my fuel system to run a full port and polish head?

No.

DangerousType · 11-02-2009, 09:12 AM

Great information, Thanks Sang..

ATSAaron · 11-05-2009, 03:59 PM

Thanks Sang. Sorry we missed this entire thread. It happened just before our Lemons race and we were distracted.

stock fuel system + Walbro + ATS FPR + ATS bored rail = good solution

Aaron

DangerousType · 11-06-2009, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ATSAaron

Thanks Sang. Sorry we missed this entire thread. It happened just before our Lemons race and we were distracted.

stock fuel system + Walbro + ATS FPR + ATS bored rail = good solution

Aaron

pm sent

10-21-2009, 09:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
DangerousType 2wicked and Beyond! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	3sgte build Hey Aaron, was wondering if you could figure out the mystery as to why people recommend ( mechanics, force induction junkies ) to upgrade my fuel delivery system. (injectors, fuel pump, rails..etc). Here's my build 3SGTE GEN2 : short block: Bore: 86.5mm wiseco piston eagle rods bearings acl/or clevite (cant remember) cometic 1.5mm head gasket arp head studs oem oil pump oem waterpump belt.. etc.. head: kelford cams rated 258 1mm oversized supertech valves springs and retainers full port and polish job sorry if this information is too little, just need a general idea, The turbo im gonna be using is a ct20b. So the question is do i have to upgrade my fuel system to run a ct20b? ive already manage to pick up and install the walbro 255 but i was recommended that since the head will flow more air that i need bigger injectors...( but even with bigger injectors, would be useless without an ems right?). Do i need to upgrade my fuel system to run a full port and polish head?

10-22-2009, 02:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
HarrisRacing Cage Fighter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lafayette, La Posts: 162 Thanks: 11 Thanked 15 Times in 7 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	My .02 Get the bored fuel rail and the FPR...or just get the bored fuel rail and some 550's. But yes, I would upgrade one of those two parts of the fuel. Patrick

10-22-2009, 05:17 PM	#7 (permalink)
HarrisRacing Cage Fighter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Lafayette, La Posts: 162 Thanks: 11 Thanked 15 Times in 7 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	More thoughts. I am running 266 whp and 272 wtq on my stock gen 3 motor (forged pistons), and stock CT20B at only 15-16 psi. I think 440s can handle that, but the fuel rail definitely should be bored and I am going to highly recommend the FPR mod from ATS as well. The gen 3 rail is bored bigger from the factory to prevent fuel pressure drop-off at high demand. Anyway, run the 440's just watch your fuel when you tune. The point being, the head isn't going to make THAT much more flow as the turbo is the limiting factor now. Sure it could make more in the midrange and such, but on top end the turbo will be done. I found that bumping from 16-18 psi only made 4 whp difference on the top end. At the bottom it made 20 ft lbs of torque though and the difference slowly tapered as rpms went up. Patrick

11-01-2009, 11:37 PM	#9 (permalink)
DangerousType 2wicked and Beyond! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	this is it... [IMG][IMG][/IMG][/IMG]

11-01-2009, 11:38 PM	#10 (permalink)
DangerousType 2wicked and Beyond! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	[IMG][/IMG]

10-21-2009, 02:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
DangerousType 2wicked and Beyond! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	anyone ?

10-22-2009, 06:54 AM	#3 (permalink)
mr2magic deutsch type skillz Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hannover, Germany Posts: 928 Thanks: 77 Thanked 36 Times in 33 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	Prolly because the GEN3 which used the CT20b had 550cc injectors as standard (factory overkill) whereas the GEN2 used 440cc. If you smack a CT20b on a GEN2 and want to get the maximum out of it you're going to be at the limit of what the stock pump and 440cc injectors are capable of. My 0.02!

10-22-2009, 03:41 PM	#5 (permalink)
DangerousType 2wicked and Beyond! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Thanks for the .02nts fellas, i apreciated.. But curiosity makes me wonder if i can run this head with just 440cc injectors?? To think about it, ct20b turbo in a 2nd gen without the use of 550cc has been a fact and establish already right? why is it different when you throw in the variable of a fully ported head instead of stock when the rule of thumb is when you upgrade to larger turbo, you need to upgrade your fuel delivery system? No mentions of the head... this is why i posted this on atsracing thread so i can get an answer from at least Aaron...

10-22-2009, 04:49 PM	#6 (permalink)
mr2magic deutsch type skillz Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Hannover, Germany Posts: 928 Thanks: 77 Thanked 36 Times in 33 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	It only becomes critical when you're pushing the limits. If you smack on a CT20b and keep a reasonable amount of boost you're prolly not gonna have a problem (prolly!) If you push the envelope though......I wouldn't want to take that chance. Don't forget - with a p&p the gen2 head has a better VE than it was ever designed for, so you're flowing more air (plus increased boost!) than toyota ever thought you may reasonably flow - ergo you run lean.....bad karma!!! I would say upping the fuel pressure is a minimum if increasing boost by that much - adding 550's or even supra 800cc injectors is just a failsafe. Anyone else care to comment??

11-01-2009, 04:14 PM	#8 (permalink)
MR210 Some Skills Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: San Antonio Posts: 95 Thanks: 3 Thanked 3 Times in 2 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	It would really be a shame if that nice motor got shot because of slightly small injectors.

11-02-2009, 09:12 AM	#12 (permalink)
DangerousType 2wicked and Beyond! Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Queens, NY Posts: 76 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Great information, Thanks Sang..

11-05-2009, 03:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
ATSAaron No Skills Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 186 Thanks: 8 Thanked 13 Times in 12 Posts iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	Thanks Sang. Sorry we missed this entire thread. It happened just before our Lemons race and we were distracted. stock fuel system + Walbro + ATS FPR + ATS bored rail = good solution Aaron

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