Best year for rally cross?

Lachlan · 10-31-2008, 10:12 PM

I know this is the autocross forum, but there's no rallycross forum, so I thought I'd piggyback. I'm considering getting an AW11 for rallycross next season, and I'm wondering if there's a "best model year" to select for race? Any year that had better (or worse) structure, suspension, weight, etc? Or is it a wash?

te51levin · 10-31-2008, 11:15 PM

An interesting question. It depends on what you are allowed to change and what must remain stock in your race class. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but here are my thoughts:

1985 is the only year NA to get a rear sway bar as standard. This is useful for SCCA Solo guys who are sometimes not allowed to add sway bars to a car not originally equipped. Most '85s and '86s I see have power package, cruise control, A/C, etc.

1986 is just like a 1985, mechanically speaking, but without the rear sway bar.

1987 got bigger brake rotors, which is good, and also an improved (marginally stronger?) transmission. The rear suspension geometry was altered to be more stable and less twitchy. Some cars got a T-top roof, which is bad for racing: it adds weight high on the car and (we assume) causes a lack of torsional stiffness. Some cars came as "base" models with cheaper seats and no power equipment. 1988 and 1989 NA models are largely the same as 1987 mechanically.

If you are allowed to modify the chassis, any year will do. Find the cheapest rust-free hardtop you can and go like hell.

Lachlan · 11-02-2008, 08:00 PM

Thanks. For stock rwd it pretty much has to be factory fresh; however, I would probably be shooting for the prepared rwd or modified 2wd. In Utah I had a friend that drove an MR2 in prepared rear but complained that it lacked power despite its light weight. If that's the case I may do an engine swap in the future, which would push me into M2, which allows just about anything you could need. Brakes aren't as big a deal in rally as they are on tarmac, so the brake change isn't a concern for me, but I'm wondering about the rear suspension. But it sounds like the biggest thing to worry about is getting a hard top.

Matchbx · 11-03-2008, 01:39 PM

I rallycross my 85 hardtop and it's decent. I need some more seat time to get used to it though. It seems very easy to flick around at the higher speeds, but the tighter turns it tends to push a bit more than I like.

I started out in a 93 AWD Talon that I ran for 3 seasons. Then I switched to FWD for 2 seasons and now I'm on to RWD. I competed in M2 for most of the year (even though my car just barely gets bumped out of SR into PR). The 4AGE has plenty of power. It seems to come down more to handling for me. And as I said before, I still have to get used to this drivetrain.

As far as years go, I can't really say much. I like my 85, but I've put alot of work into it to get it up and running. The only thing that puts me into PR is my racing seat. I have an all aluminum Kirkey racing seat. It makes a HUGE difference in how you can drive the car in rallycross!! The one thing you will want to invest in is some decent winter tires (i.e. Blizzaks or Hakka's). They won't bump you up in class and they make a big difference on pretty much any surface you run on.

Hope this helps a little. If you have any classing questions or anything, let me know. I'm the Land O Lakes region Chairperson and my good friend is part of the national rallycross board of directors.

Lachlan · 11-03-2008, 05:59 PM

Are there many hard tops around anymore? Almost everything I see is a "sports roof."

curvesrgood · 11-03-2008, 06:27 PM

You can find hardtops... they're just a little harder to find because you only see 85 and 86 hardtops... in 87 they got t-tops and sunroofs (only right?). I got my hardtop 86 ex-race car chassis for a great deal (free pickup across the state from me), but haven't gotten it on the road yet. Can't wait to though! Just keep an eye out, you can find one somewhere out there. There were a fair number of them in 85 and 86.

jamesp · 11-26-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lachlan

Thanks. For stock rwd it pretty much has to be factory fresh; however, I would probably be shooting for the prepared rwd or modified 2wd. In Utah I had a friend that drove an MR2 in prepared rear but complained that it lacked power despite its light weight. If that's the case I may do an engine swap in the future, which would push me into M2, which allows just about anything you could need. Brakes aren't as big a deal in rally as they are on tarmac, so the brake change isn't a concern for me, but I'm wondering about the rear suspension. But it sounds like the biggest thing to worry about is getting a hard top.

---resurrecting a dormant thread---

If it were me (and it probably will be next season...), I'd put bilsteins and good snows (Kelly Magna Grip) on it and run it in SR, or a race seat, LSD (legal in PR in 09), and rally tires and run it in PR.

From what I've seen, the FWD cars have more grip, and they're hard to beat in a RWD car if the FWD driver is even moderately good. I run a Neon in M2, and every RWD car I've ever run against isn't even close, especially on tight courses, where you can left-foot brake and walk a FWD car around it's front wheels.

just my .02...

james phillips
98 Neon SCCA RallyCross M2

powderballz · 12-10-2008, 01:24 PM

Honestly, with RallyX, the weight difference between a T-tops car or a hardtop probably won't effect your times greatly. Rally is way more about driver control than anything else, having a couple extra pounds on the car won't effect you times as greatly as it might in autoX because RallyX is a whole different beast.

Matchbx · 12-10-2008, 01:28 PM

I think the only thing I would worry about with a t-top car would be flexing the body enough to make the t-tops leak later on.

jamesp · 12-11-2008, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchbx

I think the only thing I would worry about with a t-top car would be flexing the body enough to make the t-tops leak later on.

I'm more worried about the T-tops exploding above your head when you roll it. Rollovers happen, I've seen two.

Matchbx · 12-11-2008, 11:40 AM

Yeah, we've had 2 as well over the past 10 years. They were from people over driving their cars. One was a fully prepped rally car and the other was a semi-prepped one. Niether caused harm to the occupants.

powderballz · 12-14-2008, 01:57 AM

I' just gonna go out an a limb and say that if your fear about rolling over is shattering the T-tops, you're not thinking very good. LOL

Plus, if you rollover, its not like the glass is going to fall on you...your going to be on your roof

328FTW · 12-14-2008, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powderballz

I' just gonna go out an a limb and say that if your fear about rolling over is shattering the T-tops, you're not thinking very good. LOL

Plus, if you rollover, its not like the glass is going to fall on you...your going to be on your roof

I have been watching this thread and you were the first to notice that (finally lol). It is all about pillar strength cause t-top or hardtop the bit in between does almost nothing for you it is the pillars holding your head off the ground which is why speedway midgets and such don't even have a roof just open sky and a cage.

jamesp · 12-15-2008, 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powderballz

I' just gonna go out an a limb and say that if your fear about rolling over is shattering the T-tops, you're not thinking very good. LOL

Plus, if you rollover, its not like the glass is going to fall on you...your going to be on your roof

You should test that theory for us, and report back. The rollovers that I've seen at rallycrosses don't support it.

powderballz · 12-15-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jamesp

You should test that theory for us, and report back. The rollovers that I've seen at rallycrosses don't support it.

Quoting Billy Madison "I Know from experience dude,"

Not RallyX, but this was at our Ohio Fall Foliage meet in 07.....

Car rolled onto the roof, and just stayed there, you can see my red 93 in the background.

Matchbx · 12-16-2008, 09:21 AM

The really bad thing about t-tops or even a glass sunroof in a rollover incident is that once that glass breaks, if you are rolling a few times over, your arms can fling out of the opening and get crushed between the ground and the roof of the car. And like you said, it reduces the structural integrity having t-tops. I believe they design the t-top cars to have strength in the chassis from twisting and not for protection in rollover situations.

And as stated before, if you roll at a rallycross you are seriously not paying attention to what you're doing. You are WAY over driving your abilities and the terrain. We've only had 2 rollovers in over 10 years of putting on rallycrosses. We design our courses and keep tabs on the degradation of the course to minimize it as much as possible. Many times we have to make changes to the course (move a corner a little, etc) between runs to compensate for the degradation of the terrain. But it can happen at pretty much anytime if the conditions are right.

328FTW · 12-16-2008, 06:33 PM

People that do not hold onto the steering wheel hard and passengers that don't sit right deserve to have their arms crushed. I cannot tell you how many people get their fingers crushed cause they hold onto the cage during a race even though they are told not to and it is enforced strictly

Then there are the ones that try to hold the roof up when they roll. I know crashing is a shock but they are briefed every meeting at our club on how to sit and where to put there arms at all times and ignore the warnings then wonder why officials tell them to leave. And when I stand in as an official I know no matter how stupid what they were doing was it is my ass on the line. And yes I ranted my away from the topic of t-tops onto morons.

Matchbx · 12-17-2008, 09:25 AM

I've heard of this happening too with the grabbing of the roll cage. I don't know if I would want to hold onto the steering wheel though. If the wheel hits right and spins the steering wheel, you're gonna break your wrists. Grab your harnesses or grab the sides of your shirt. That way the centrifugal forces can't pull your arms toward the roof.

328FTW · 12-18-2008, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchbx

I've heard of this happening too with the grabbing of the roll cage. I don't know if I would want to hold onto the steering wheel though. If the wheel hits right and spins the steering wheel, you're gonna break your wrists. Grab your harnesses or grab the sides of your shirt. That way the centrifugal forces can't pull your arms toward the roof.

Yeah that is how I snapped my wrist a couple years back but there was no choice the car snapped around and then hit a ditch and rolled and when it landed spun the wheel. Adrenalin was still going though so I started up and tried to hook reverse but my hand wouldn't close. Car went out in the next race after hammering the guards off the wheels

For true fail the hospital turned me away when I got there and I didn't go back till the next day then they asked why I didn't come sooner

Passenger had his hands tucked in the harness cause our club enforces that with good reason.

Lachlan · 01-04-2009, 07:32 PM

I would think you'd want to keep your hands on the wheel to keep control as long as possible. Granted, when your wheels are off the ground it doesn't do much good.

10-31-2008, 10:12 PM	#1 (permalink)
Lachlan No Skills Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Best year for rally cross? I know this is the autocross forum, but there's no rallycross forum, so I thought I'd piggyback. I'm considering getting an AW11 for rallycross next season, and I'm wondering if there's a "best model year" to select for race? Any year that had better (or worse) structure, suspension, weight, etc? Or is it a wash?

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10-31-2008, 11:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
te51levin LithiaToyotaParts.com Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Copperhead Road Posts: 3,699 Thanks: 50 Thanked 324 Times in 268 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (193/100% )	An interesting question. It depends on what you are allowed to change and what must remain stock in your race class. I don't pretend to know all the answers, but here are my thoughts: 1985 is the only year NA to get a rear sway bar as standard. This is useful for SCCA Solo guys who are sometimes not allowed to add sway bars to a car not originally equipped. Most '85s and '86s I see have power package, cruise control, A/C, etc. 1986 is just like a 1985, mechanically speaking, but without the rear sway bar. 1987 got bigger brake rotors, which is good, and also an improved (marginally stronger?) transmission. The rear suspension geometry was altered to be more stable and less twitchy. Some cars got a T-top roof, which is bad for racing: it adds weight high on the car and (we assume) causes a lack of torsional stiffness. Some cars came as "base" models with cheaper seats and no power equipment. 1988 and 1989 NA models are largely the same as 1987 mechanically. If you are allowed to modify the chassis, any year will do. Find the cheapest rust-free hardtop you can and go like hell.

11-02-2008, 08:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
Lachlan No Skills Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Thanks. For stock rwd it pretty much has to be factory fresh; however, I would probably be shooting for the prepared rwd or modified 2wd. In Utah I had a friend that drove an MR2 in prepared rear but complained that it lacked power despite its light weight. If that's the case I may do an engine swap in the future, which would push me into M2, which allows just about anything you could need. Brakes aren't as big a deal in rally as they are on tarmac, so the brake change isn't a concern for me, but I'm wondering about the rear suspension. But it sounds like the biggest thing to worry about is getting a hard top.

11-03-2008, 01:39 PM	#4 (permalink)
Matchbx Just ahead of the dust... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Eagan, MN Posts: 98 Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I rallycross my 85 hardtop and it's decent. I need some more seat time to get used to it though. It seems very easy to flick around at the higher speeds, but the tighter turns it tends to push a bit more than I like. I started out in a 93 AWD Talon that I ran for 3 seasons. Then I switched to FWD for 2 seasons and now I'm on to RWD. I competed in M2 for most of the year (even though my car just barely gets bumped out of SR into PR). The 4AGE has plenty of power. It seems to come down more to handling for me. And as I said before, I still have to get used to this drivetrain. As far as years go, I can't really say much. I like my 85, but I've put alot of work into it to get it up and running. The only thing that puts me into PR is my racing seat. I have an all aluminum Kirkey racing seat. It makes a HUGE difference in how you can drive the car in rallycross!! The one thing you will want to invest in is some decent winter tires (i.e. Blizzaks or Hakka's). They won't bump you up in class and they make a big difference on pretty much any surface you run on. Hope this helps a little. If you have any classing questions or anything, let me know. I'm the Land O Lakes region Chairperson and my good friend is part of the national rallycross board of directors.

11-03-2008, 05:59 PM	#5 (permalink)
Lachlan No Skills Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Are there many hard tops around anymore? Almost everything I see is a "sports roof."

11-03-2008, 06:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
curvesrgood three mk1's Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: NC Posts: 499 Thanks: 8 Thanked 33 Times in 28 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	You can find hardtops... they're just a little harder to find because you only see 85 and 86 hardtops... in 87 they got t-tops and sunroofs (only right?). I got my hardtop 86 ex-race car chassis for a great deal (free pickup across the state from me), but haven't gotten it on the road yet. Can't wait to though! Just keep an eye out, you can find one somewhere out there. There were a fair number of them in 85 and 86.

12-10-2008, 01:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
powderballz i is more smart then u Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Akron, OHIO Posts: 350 Thanks: 3 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Honestly, with RallyX, the weight difference between a T-tops car or a hardtop probably won't effect your times greatly. Rally is way more about driver control than anything else, having a couple extra pounds on the car won't effect you times as greatly as it might in autoX because RallyX is a whole different beast.

12-10-2008, 01:28 PM	#9 (permalink)
Matchbx Just ahead of the dust... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Eagan, MN Posts: 98 Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I think the only thing I would worry about with a t-top car would be flexing the body enough to make the t-tops leak later on.

12-11-2008, 11:40 AM	#11 (permalink)
Matchbx Just ahead of the dust... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Eagan, MN Posts: 98 Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Yeah, we've had 2 as well over the past 10 years. They were from people over driving their cars. One was a fully prepped rally car and the other was a semi-prepped one. Niether caused harm to the occupants.

12-14-2008, 01:57 AM	#12 (permalink)
powderballz i is more smart then u Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Akron, OHIO Posts: 350 Thanks: 3 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I' just gonna go out an a limb and say that if your fear about rolling over is shattering the T-tops, you're not thinking very good. LOL Plus, if you rollover, its not like the glass is going to fall on you...your going to be on your roof

12-16-2008, 09:21 AM	#16 (permalink)
Matchbx Just ahead of the dust... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Eagan, MN Posts: 98 Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	The really bad thing about t-tops or even a glass sunroof in a rollover incident is that once that glass breaks, if you are rolling a few times over, your arms can fling out of the opening and get crushed between the ground and the roof of the car. And like you said, it reduces the structural integrity having t-tops. I believe they design the t-top cars to have strength in the chassis from twisting and not for protection in rollover situations. And as stated before, if you roll at a rallycross you are seriously not paying attention to what you're doing. You are WAY over driving your abilities and the terrain. We've only had 2 rollovers in over 10 years of putting on rallycrosses. We design our courses and keep tabs on the degradation of the course to minimize it as much as possible. Many times we have to make changes to the course (move a corner a little, etc) between runs to compensate for the degradation of the terrain. But it can happen at pretty much anytime if the conditions are right.

12-16-2008, 06:33 PM	#17 (permalink)
328FTW Crazy Nasty Honey Badger Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 5,235 Thanks: 24 Thanked 266 Times in 239 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	People that do not hold onto the steering wheel hard and passengers that don't sit right deserve to have their arms crushed. I cannot tell you how many people get their fingers crushed cause they hold onto the cage during a race even though they are told not to and it is enforced strictly Then there are the ones that try to hold the roof up when they roll. I know crashing is a shock but they are briefed every meeting at our club on how to sit and where to put there arms at all times and ignore the warnings then wonder why officials tell them to leave. And when I stand in as an official I know no matter how stupid what they were doing was it is my ass on the line. And yes I ranted my away from the topic of t-tops onto morons.

12-17-2008, 09:25 AM	#18 (permalink)
Matchbx Just ahead of the dust... Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Eagan, MN Posts: 98 Thanks: 3 Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I've heard of this happening too with the grabbing of the roll cage. I don't know if I would want to hold onto the steering wheel though. If the wheel hits right and spins the steering wheel, you're gonna break your wrists. Grab your harnesses or grab the sides of your shirt. That way the centrifugal forces can't pull your arms toward the roof.

01-04-2009, 07:32 PM	#20 (permalink)
Lachlan No Skills Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 8 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I would think you'd want to keep your hands on the wheel to keep control as long as possible. Granted, when your wheels are off the ground it doesn't do much good.