Beams vs. Honda K20

[Roman]

*puts my hand up too*

The 2 litre touring cars, running race gas only make ~300-320hp.

And that's a dedicated race engine, which probably gets pulled down after every race.

I am calling mega BS on the 400hp claim.

Also, torque output has a lot to do with rod to stroke ratio, and stroke/bore ratio.

The reason that the beams makes more torque, is also the same reason that it cant rev as high in standard form.

Beams is a square bore engine, whereas the K20A is a short stroke engine IIRC.

[Jason.MZW20]

Also, torque output has a lot to do with rod to stroke ratio, and stroke/bore ratio.

The reason that the beams makes more torque, is also the same reason that it cant rev as high in standard form.

Beams is a square bore engine, whereas the K20A is a short stroke engine IIRC.

Both are perfect square motors at 86 x 86 mm. The BEAMS can rev high, and it does. The single VVT-i cuts at 7200rpm I think, and the dual VVT-i cuts at around 8000rpm (some special models cut at 8500rpm). Single uses 11:1 CR, dual uses 11.5:1 CR, while the K20A uses 11.0:1. I believe the K20 cuts at 8200rpm or thereabouts.

[X_RoninBlade_X]

Hmm, I didn't know there were different variations of the BEAMS engine. Does anyone have a BEAMS engine in their car?

[Roman]

The single VVT-i cuts at 7200rpm I think, and the dual VVT-i cuts at around 8000rpm (some special models cut at 8500rpm).

Single VVTI engine cuts at ~7400, and the dual VVTI engine cuts at 7800rpm.... definitely not 8000 or 8500!

Unless you're counting the TRD engine, but that's hardly a stock engine.

[Jason.MZW20]

Single VVTI engine cuts at ~7400, and the dual VVTI engine cuts at 7800rpm.... definitely not 8000 or 8500!

Unless you're counting the TRD engine, but that's hardly a stock engine.

I put around 7850rpm for the dual, but I saw what someone from Australia said and changed it. I didn't think it would be 8000rpm. That's like 20v 4AGE and 2ZZGE revs.

[puretone]

www.todaracing.com individual throttlebodies stroker kits you name it Vtec killer cams............. wowzor

www.todaracing.com individual throttlebodies stroker kits you name it TODA VVTi cams............


had to update it a little bit



now if only we could somehow engineer our own VVTL-i for the RedTop or BlackTop....we could then possibly be of some concern to K20 owners...

[puretone]

Hmm, I didn't know there were different variations of the BEAMS engine. Does anyone have a BEAMS engine in their car?

Welcome to the BEAMS RedTop Engine in Car forum.....

[mr220v]

The beams motor is going to be faster off the line than the k20. VVT(i) gives a nice lowend torque enhancement. 160lb/ft, thats getting close to old non vvti 1mzfe numbers.

If the beams is anything like the 20v, the objective was to produce a motor with a superwide powerband. Honda motors tend to be way more peaky.

Is it worth swapping into a mk2? No way, not with the cost and problems associated with doing a swap like this.

[Mekkahfire]

There's no way to tell what "engine" will be faster "off the line". It depends on the car it's put in...

[mr220v]

We're talking about mk2 mr2's, thats what the thread is about.

[mk1matt]

the thing I have heard most (even from honda guys) is that the motor is very high maintnence and with a 11:1 compression it is pushing its self hard to make the power, so in the end it gives you a short engine life. IMO if the beams was in some cars that we had over here there would be alot more aftermarket parts, and more tuners that have put out some impressive numbers like what has been done with the k20.

But also IMO I bought an mr2 because im not as into the 1/4 as most, ya it is fun but I like some turns and thats why I own an mr2. And lastly IMO honda just isnt worth the price, for whatever your goal is there is a car that will do it better for cheaper.....

[mr220v]

I got my beams motor for $900. A k20 is going to be at least twice as much, probably more.

There's a lot to be said for these JDM toyota orphan motors.

[Edophus]

the thing I have heard most (even from honda guys) is that the motor is very high maintnence and with a 11:1 compression it is pushing its self hard to make the power, so in the end it gives you a short engine life. IMO if the beams was in some cars that we had over here there would be alot more aftermarket parts, and more tuners that have put out some impressive numbers like what has been done with the k20.

Beams redtop is 11:1 compresion and black top is 11.5:1, its more likely high revs that will shorten engine life, especially on tuned honda engine, where the rev limit has been raised with aftermarket cams and valvetrain, which will wear out quickly.

Some more aftermarket support would be really nice for us beams owners, I've found a lot of stuff, but its all at high prices from big japanese names, and its just to much money to import these parts. I think thats where the k20 really wins, the beams just doesnt have the same support.

[Jason.MZW20]

There's no way to tell what "engine" will be faster "off the line". It depends on the car it's put in...

Because the BEAMS has more torque, it's a better all around motor. Since transmissions are torque multipliers, it's quite easy to determine how much torque you'll receive "off the line." You can then apply that to the vehicle weight (i.e. lbs per lb-ft of torque)

[BEAMS/S54
3.285 x 4.176 = 13.71 x 159lb-ft
2181lb-ft @ 6400rpm in 1st gear]

Here's where the vehicle comes in:
MR2 N/A
1.23lbs/lb-ft @ 6400rpm (very good); 2700lbs/2181lb-ft

Let's assume this engine produces 40% of peak torque at 1000rpm:
159lb-ft x .40 = 63.6lb-ft @ 1000rpm x 13.71 = 871.96lb-ft @ 1000rpm
2700/871.96lb-ft = 3.09lbs/lb-ft @ 1000rpm

[K20/6spd
3.267 x 4.765 = 15.56 x 139lb-ft
2163lb-ft at 6100rpm in 1st gear]

Civic Si coupe
1.33lbs/lb-ft @ 6100rpm (very good); 2886lbs/2163lb-ft

Let's also assume this engine produces the same 40% of peak torque at 1000rpm:
139lb-ft x .40 = 55.6lb-ft @ 1000rpm x 15.56 = 865.13lb-ft @ 1000rpm
2886/865.13 = 3.33lbs/lb-ft @ 1000rpm

Clearly the BEAMS creates more "off the line" torque than the K20. It will create 6.7% more off the line, and 8.1% more at its peak. It will still create more torque if the weights of the cars were equal. However, since engines are pretty non-linear in terms of their power production, these just give you an idea of performance.

In contrast, here's my 1MZ:
1MZ/S51
3.538 x 3.944 = 13.95 x 214lb-ft
2986.12lb-ft @ 4400rpm in 1st gear
0.92lbs/lb-ft @ 4400rpm; 2750lbs/2986lb-ft

The V6 will definitely get the car moving better than any of the other 2, even though horsepower is the same. This results in faster acceleration. Sorry for the extremely technical post.

You can also see what Honda has done to the gearing in order to make up for the lack of torque. I should note the K20A will produce more torque in 2nd gear and others because of the closer ratios, so it has a gearing advantage here. Mate it to the Civic's other 5-speed manual, and it'll fall on its face.

[Edophus]

Interesting reading, they seem close indeed, though the only issue with those figures i see, is the beams is rated at 151 lb-ft @ 6000rpm and certainly in the uk the k20 is rated at 144 lb-ft @ 5900rpm. There fairly close but when talking numbers there is always to many assumptions to be accurate though, I think the k20 still has a big advantage with its extra rev range and the six speed box.

[Jason.MZW20]

though the only issue with those figures i see, is the beams is rated at 151 lb-ft @ 6000rpm and certainly in the uk the k20 is rated at 144 lb-ft @ 5900rpm.

I was using the Altezza's dual VVT-i 3SGE since it's more comparable to the K20A. 207hp (210ps) @ 7600rpm/159lb-ft @ 6400rpm. The single VVT-i 3SGE produces 197hp (200ps) @ 7000rpm and 151.8lb-ft @ 6000rpm.

The K20A under the older SAE specs produces 210hp @ 7800rpm/143lb-ft @ 7000rpm in the RSX-S. 201hp/141lb-ft under the new SAE testing in the RSX-S, and 197hp/139lb-ft in the U.S. spec Civic Si.

[Edophus]

Yeah the blacktop is closer to the k20 in performance than the redtop, the k20 that comes in the jdm dc5 integra is stronger still 220bhp I believe!

[mr220v]

The big question is what is the k20 doing before vtec kicks in?

The 2zzge is almost identical to the 1zzfe until you hit lift.

Its a similar argument when comparing the 4age 20v blacktop to a b16a2. The b16 makes 15 more hp, but 10ft/lbs less torque.

I'd rather have the consistent performance of most of the toyota motors vs the manic/topend biased honda motors.

[TomsMR2]

the K20 is a super turd. if you're looking at motors you can swap in for a few thousand dollars, get yourself a GR and laugh at the stupid K20 nutswingers.

its really not that good of a motor. the whole point of having an na motor is great response.. if i wanted to wind my motor out to actually go anywhere, id get a turbo and enjoy the extra 100 ft/lbs of torque. look at the dynos of it, it essentially lags. kinda defeats the whole purpose doesnt it? the beams is amazingly better because it actually retains a powerband while making 200. the k20 wheezes to make what it does and when its modded it just adds power way up top.

[mr220v]

The k20 is designed to make a number, not a result.