WFX - Bad BEAMS Build-Up

[WFX]

I believe our dynos down here read different to yours over there anyway and judging from the power Red Tops are making over here its not to shabby. The power has increased mainly in the higher rev range maybe thats because I'm running 3 inch exhaust now so it gains up top rather then down low. 1st gear is about the same but 2nd gear is when it comes on full throttle.

Speaking of throttles Glenn I think I disturbed them when putting them in and they need to be balanced again Oh well will get it all done next year!

[puretone]

Originally Posted by WFX

Need to get my Tacho and Speedometer working as that was hooked up. Tacho should be easy enough as the MOTEC has a tacho wire to run to but speedo not quite sure if this needs to go to MOTEC or gearbox if someone knows already would love the heads up! I'm running a MOTEC temp sensor but need to chase down a single wire temp sensor that I can install to my stock temp guage on the cluster otherwise looks like some guages are on order next so I can keep a eye on whats going on. Ive got the MOTEC software too should I wish to connect via laptop and view what the MOTEC is doing.

have a look at the big white plug on your BEAMS clip, the dash wiring if you have it..... this is my plug comparo for the ST184 to BEAMS cluster....
ST184 to ST202 BEAMS Dash

the speed sensor on your BEAMS trans has 3 wires(sits right on top of trans close to gear selector arm...), one of them is orange, thats the speedo signal wire, that needs to go to speedo on the cluster, the others are ground and IG+. I wired up my own plug from a junkyard...wires were all different but the plug matched up (from hyundai i think lol), but from the schematic there is blue & red, those are ground & 12v +, then the third is signal

my temp gauge works just the way you had it hooked up in your write up, i ran it to an after market temp sensor as well for closer estimates to degrees F or C

MOTEC, you bastard!! Soon you'll see what i have in store!! hehehe

[Mroku]

I don't think ITB's will get you much of an increase in power, (especially by themselves). Maybe they will improve your mid-range and throttle response. Could you put up the dyno graph for that run? Interested to see what your curve is like compared to your old one.

Also did you do a dyno run on that same dyno before the Motec and quads? If so, what was the power or do you have the graph for that? Every dyno reads differently as well as conditions are usually different. Best to see what the before and after results were.

[Roman]

I dont think that fitting quads is nearly as simple as "Buy adaptor A, buy throttles B, buy ram tubes C and fit it together" if you want to get the most out of the system, or get the power at the RPM band where you're wanting it. It's easy to throw away power by having the wrong intake runner lengths, which dont come into their efficiency range until some stupid RPM like 14,000 or something, which you'd never reach with street (or race?) 3SGE.

I've been thinking about a quads setup, or possibly a revised single throttle/plenum design (Since I'd only ever run quads in an airbox anyway...)

First thing to do is work out where you want your powerband to be, and then go from there.... Find out the optimal length from back of the valves to the end of runner to get helmholtz resonance occuring at that RPM range.

Then work out the size/taper of the runners, size of plenum, etc etc.

I bet you'd find that most of your answers to these questions would be fairly close to the dimensions of the factory plenum setup.

I wonder if you could raise the effective RPM of the standard manifold by shortening/remaking the spacer that goes in between the manifold and the head... You could probably change the angle slightly to get a straighter shot at the head as well.

P.S. good article I found on the subject:

Intake Manifold Tech: Runner Size Calculations - Team Integra

The only thing I can fault it on, is that right at the end it says that helmholtz resonance does NOT occur when you're running quads... this is untrue, you dont need a plenum wall to 'reflect' the pressure wave. You might get a secondary resonance from having a plenum wall I suppose, but that's not the length that you tune for... it would give a secondary 'peak' at a lower RPM, in theory.

edit: This is also interesting FLUID DYNAMIC STUDY OF INTAKE MANIFOLDS OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES IN PRESENCE OF ACOUSTIC RESONATORS

[Roman]

P.S. Wow, check out the picture of the JUN intake manifold.

What a work of art!



P.P.S. Apologies for the thread hijack.

Your car sounds freaken awesome.

Any sort of idea of 0-100 times, or 1/4 mile times or anything?

[puretone]

Originally Posted by Roman

P.S. Wow, check out the picture of the JUN intake manifold.

What a work of art!

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4...2a56f37st8.jpg

P.P.S. Apologies for the thread hijack.

Your car sounds freaken awesome.

Any sort of idea of 0-100 times, or 1/4 mile times or anything?

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHH
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH

Sexy!!!

[Edophus]

Sounds great sorry for the questions

Have you got the dyno graph to show?

what size bodies and length of trumpet are you using?

also would be interesting to know how the vacumn for the brakes/fuel are plumbed in.

[Marco69]

Originally Posted by Roman

P.S. Wow, check out the picture of the JUN intake manifold.

What a work of art!

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4...2a56f37st8.jpg

P.P.S. Apologies for the thread hijack.

Your car sounds freaken awesome.

Any sort of idea of 0-100 times, or 1/4 mile times or anything?

There isn't anything impressive about this manifold if you've looked at the stock BEAMS manifold - basically, the same thing.

BTW, a manifold like that on a BEAMS engine is going to do squat about 1/4 mile times (if that's what you're interested in ). The BEAMS is a highly tuned engine and you'll be hard press to get anything significant in the form of HP without any serious tuning and massaging of the head and internals. Yes, you can get another 5 to 10 HP with a good set of headers and intake and even free up some of those ponies with a LWF, but that’s just about it.

Cheers,
Marco

[da_horse]

actually that manifold is a lot better than the beams one. There are a few things:
1. straight intake pipe
2. correctly reducing diameter of intake pipe for better intake velocity
3. straighter flow right to the back of the valve.

so yes the beams is similar in that it has velocity stacks, but the whole intake pipe work in this one still stands a few steps above.

sorry for the OT.

wfx, more vids in tunnels!!!

[Marco69]

Originally Posted by da_horse

actually that manifold is a lot better than the beams one. There are a few things:
1. straight intake pipe
2. correctly reducing diameter of intake pipe for better intake velocity
3. straighter flow right to the back of the valve.

so yes the beams is similar in that it has velocity stacks, but the whole intake pipe work in this one still stands a few steps above.

sorry for the OT.

wfx, more vids in tunnels!!!

All great in theory, when you put that into use in the real world, you'll realize that the gains are negligible for the cost of the manifold. I don't think 5 HP is worth the cost of the manifold.
A manifold in the 5SFE would make a huge a difference, not the case in a BEAMS. Now, if you're talking about a race engine, that's different, but the cost is even higher.

This is all my personal opinion!

[WFX]

Welcome To 2008!!!

Lets get this ball rolling again shall we... so many things so little time! :chuckles:

Had some spare time today on my day off from work so before heading down to the beach (it was 38 degrees here) decided to revamp my wheel wells with some good old black and blue paint:




Ive also uploaded my last dyno run after the tune for some discussion:



129.83 Kw (174.1 HP) @ 8600 RPM
690.68 Nm Torque @ 5400 RPM

I still need to get a few different print outs from the tuner with the RPM, Air/Fuel etc showing so I can compare with all my other runs in the past and any future runs. Ive also been looking at the higher RPM range and it seems torque has definately dropped after hitting its peak around 5400RPM or so... any got any ideas? Ive got another dyno end of the month at Motorvation so will be interesting to see the scores from that.

In summary my previous run on an Dyno Dynamics Dyno was 147.2HP @ 6800RPM and then Ive installed Quad Throttle Bodies, an MOTEC M400 with a tune and 3 inch exhaust system and now scored 174.1HP @ 8600RPM on a different Dyno Dynamics Dyno.

[RST]

Dude, that sounds awesome (jumped on a mates computer to get youtube).

Can I ask about the spacer between the head and the tb manifold -did you keep it in there -same thikness as stock? Sorry if it's been asked before.

Richard

[Roman]

Hey, I was reading an article about the design of the 2ZZFE engine, and it stated that the rubber insulator part of the intake manifold base, is purely there to reduce intake noise.

I'd imagine it's the same for the 3S engines.

The quad throttle adaptor that he runs replaces that spacer, which would account for *some* of the difference in sound.

[Celica RA45]

actully dave the rubber on the altezza and the red top are there to stop it shearing off ,if it was solid it would snap as this engine has a harmonic vibration through it at a certain rpm .nother reason why the 13 kilo fly wheel is there as well plus the alloy oil pan all to try to fix the engine harmonic
thats why i lighten the crank by 3 kilos to move it down the rev range
mine is between 2000 rpm and 3000 rpm now
before it was at 5000 rpm and 6000 rpm for the std motor
the 4age motor has the same problem it shears off alternator brackets
with the alloys they use now it seems to absorbe a lot of the harmonics ,heance every thing from engine mounts to alternator braket etc are all alloy to help
ps im not sure if the 2zz has any problems .i only know of a couple and it was mainly valves snapping the heads off and fly wheel bolts coming loose on the early models

[Edophus]

Originally Posted by Celica RA45

thats why i lighten the crank by 3 kilos to move it down the rev range

Does this have any effect on the engines ability to rev? or its that mainly down to the length of the rods etc, as in up to 8600rpm.

[da_horse]

lightening the crank as per Glenn's post is more so on the counter weights of the crank. ur thinking of another crank grinding process.

[WFX]

A quick update to say Im about to upgrade to a oil catch can and Im also still getting alot of popping out the back of the exhaust especially when you back off the revs... anyone got any ideas?

I had them before but now theyre even louder could it possibly be air being sucked in from somewhere? Cheers!

[da_horse]

got a pic of ur dyno? what A/R's? how bad is the popping? its quite noticeable in the vid you posted but i'm not sure if you were doing that on purpose

[RST]

Wayne, this was my thoughts on that one -same as I actually sent you on last message.

You could be getting back firing because you're either running on a very rich AFR curve, or your timing could be out -or really retarded timing might cause the same thing. That might give you the unburnt gasses coming through your exhaust and igniting. Could be something to look for -I'd hazard a guess to check / rule out those if it's happening when your revs are dropping.

PS: I'd called it back firing but not sure if that's technically the right term.

Richard

[Servin]

Originally Posted by WFX

I believe our dynos down here read different to yours over there anyway and judging from the power Red Tops are making over here its not to shabby. The power has increased mainly in the higher rev range maybe thats because I'm running 3 inch exhaust now so it gains up top rather then down low. 1st gear is about the same but 2nd gear is when it comes on full throttle.

Speaking of throttles Glenn I think I disturbed them when putting them in and they need to be balanced again Oh well will get it all done next year!

3" exhaust?? I know the BEAMS enigne is a highly tuned engine but i think this is overkill which is evident in that your car is only making 174 hp which is the average WHP a stock BEAMS engine puts down. I think the most you should ever go on a NA 4 is about 2.5 for a really modded 4 or if your are running nitrous. Your car still needs backpressure so that it scavages properly with what you are running its like drinking a milkshake without a straw and trying to drink it staright out the cup its just going to flow all out at once and drown you. I would look into getting a new exhaust and pick-up that lost HP.