Getting very close to fitting my itb's -any comments on this please?...

RST · 02-06-2009, 02:23 PM

I’m doing a bit of thinking again at the moment as I’m close to getting round to fitting my itb’s –hoping to get the car booked in within the next month so I have it back for the sunny weather.

I was wondering whether I can bounce a few things off you guys; see what you think…..

…..BTW the guys doing the work for me have recently itb’d a Celica with a rev 3 3SGE and got something in the region of 200hp at the wheels during mapping with a Link G1 (though there was a fair bit of internal work performed and the CR was raised –allot of which I would have thought is stock in the red top from the start). The itb’s used weren’t great (had to be machined) and had very short trumpets which put the power band up too far for my liking.

Before we go anywhere –I will be fitting the ITB’s onto a backing plate to accept a sausage shaped filter. Discuss air boxes vs. filters/socks elsewhere please. The itb’s are 48mm ID 4AGE items –using a custom red top adapter manifold which I bought second hand and I plan on using 48mmID x 40mm long trumpets available from Jenvey in the UK. The bolt pitch is wrong on the Jenvey trumpets so the filter backing plate will be used as an adapter also.

MAP line’s we’re intending running vacuum lines off each throttle to a common point with a small chamber and running the MAP sensor line from that.

Brake boost lines we’re intending running lines off each throttle again to a common point with a small chamber and tapping the brake booster line from there.

…both these arrangements based on the experience with the recent project. I want to keep my MAP line separate whatever we do –in line with all the recommendations I’ve seen before and the one’s in my ECU instruction manual.

PCV lines I am intending running them to an oil catch can which currently has no attachment for a breather filter –this will be machined and a fitting screwed in to take a small breather filter.

The Phoenix Power Exhaust header seems to be out of production so I’ve asked them to quote for an equal length custom stainless 4-1 manifold –they’ve suggested 1.5” ID header pipes down to 2.5" to mate with my existing 2.5” Blue Flame twin exhaust system. I don’t particularly wish to change to a single exit so can’t see a reason to change from my current exhaust at the moment (I prefer the twin exit look by far)?

A high flow sports cat will probably be fitted as I may be loosing my friendly garage for yearly MOT’s / emissions testing so keeping the de-cat section may not be a great idea. Having said that –it supposedly passed emissions on the CAT test last November no problem though I didn’t enquire into it.

I have a twin 11” Spal fan kit which is going on the engine lid shortly –will be switched through the ECU. I recently drilled and bonded in short studs in the engine bay lid to bolt the fan mount to rather than relying on the existing (tired) screw holes. I’m not too sure what temp to base switching the fans on yet -I have to do a little more thinking on that one.

I will probably install 2 mouldings that I have which slightly extend the side engine bay vents to scoop a bit more air into the engine bay when the car’s moving. I will probably remove the stock drivers’ side fan and install 2 ducts from coiled tubing secured at the vents and routed back to the filter to feed air directly to the filter.

The engine will be going for a service /advisory at the start of the works and any parts such as oil / water pumps inspected etc. The G3 XLEM I currently have fitted should be more than capable of handling the set-up with the itb’s. The C-One flywheel and Helix Stage 1 Organic clutch I have fitted have only done a few thousand miles since fitting back in October 2008.

Power-wise I’m not spectating as I'm certainly not chasing figures any more though a couple more hp would be nice –it’s currently running 183hp at the wheels. I am using the same garage and mapper / dyno centre as I used last time so I should have an accurate comparison of before and after (hopefully I should be able to get the same dyno op as well). BTW the car was mapped before on 97RON BP Ultimate and is never run on anything else –this is the most reliable source of decent duel for me.

….sorry for the long post guys, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts or pointers. I see there’s another itb’d red top appeared recently. That reminds me –I must drop Wayno a message to see how he’s getting on with his. Haven’t seen him on for a while.

Thanks for looking / contributing.

Celica RA45 · 02-06-2009, 10:43 PM

i have waynos engine at the moment. but his inlet is 68mm long plus 74mm for the throttles and 30mm for ram tube and he siad he has about 75mm from ram tube to fire wall .i am doing so more mods on fwd inlets to see if i can get them down to 60mm for the inlet so that it gives a bit more room .
on braking for booster i just use 1 inlet port, dont have to balance them all together ,and will brake fine ,and waynes is the same

RST · 02-13-2009, 11:52 AM

Actually I've been doing some re-checking as I haven't had my itb's for a year now (they've been sitting on the shelf down at Rogue Motorsport).

I asked them to double check the throttle bore and they are 45mm at the outer face not 48mm as I thought I remembered. Strange though as I looked back through my past orders and I did get a supposedley 48mm ID trumpet which effectively mated up with them so I need to check out a 45 and 48mm trumpet as well before I buy the lot.

Quote:

on braking for booster i just use 1 inlet port, dont have to balance them all together ,and will brake fine ,and waynes is the same

...Yea that's the bit I'm not too sure about. The garage said that gave really poor braking on their celica. We'll have to see when mine gets down there I think.

Ta muchly.

Roman · 02-13-2009, 12:43 PM

I dont have much to contribute, apart from saying... Good luck!

I look foward to hearing about how it goes. And sounds.

RST · 02-13-2009, 02:26 PM

Quote:

I look foward to hearing about how it goes. And sounds.

...Cheers -in the mean time can you stop taunting me with videos of itb'd beams engines please. Making me very

with the noise alone

I'm hoping it should all go together reasonably well. I think my mapper is keen to see the itb's fitted. Just got to be a bit careful with inlet air temps -planty of ducting to m ake sure they're fed with clean air etc. Should be do-able though.

I'll have to make sure I get a good write-up when I get it done. If I can get the car dropped off in about 3 weeks time hopefully that'll be the start of it.

Roman · 02-15-2009, 12:54 AM

Yeah should be able to get some nice cold air going to it... Can you monitor air inlet temps? You could experiment a bit to see what works best.

But yeah, mine is so close to firing up too, I know the feeling.

If not for a stupid mistake last weekend, I'd be annoying the neighbours with a rowdy, quad throttled, exhaustless beams 3S by now.

Will hopefully have it running this week, fingers crossed.

Will post a vid when I do!

And keep us updated, that is gonna be awesome!

RST · 02-15-2009, 06:26 AM

I didn't know you were going quads as well at the moment. Good luck with them.

The Link Display lets me see everything the ECU does -I noticed my inlet temps dropped a fair bit after I made up my filter shield.

...never thought much about this before but where do you put the IAT sensor with quads? I guessing if I'm going for a single "sausage" filter it can sit poking through the aluminium back plate?

Roman · 02-15-2009, 08:44 AM

Yep sounds logical, that's where the air is being sucked from.

Do you think the aluminium plate will heatsoak from the engine much though? Like heat transferring through the block to intake to the IAT sensor... They are usually mounted in the plastic intake piping quite far from conductive engine heat.

Maybe have it insulated with plastic or something?

Might not make a difference either way, but just a thought.

RST · 02-15-2009, 08:53 AM

I think a little shield behind the plate might get fitted though every itb set-up I've seen just sits there beside the engine. I was thinking maybe using a rubber grommet round the sensor rather than fitting it directly to the plate -like they use in the stock 3SGE air box.

MANDALAY · 02-17-2009, 07:07 PM

How you going with the link ? Any need to retune at all, cold start etc ? Did you have an OEM ecu originally and what diff do you reckon the link has had.
Love to see you getting the ITB's in

Good luck with it all.

Roman · 02-17-2009, 08:16 PM

If running a MAP sensor, then yes, definitely need a retune.

The signal when taken from a plenum is massively different to when taken from just the small volume in the intake runners.

puretone · 02-18-2009, 11:18 PM

PICS OF YOUR ITB'S OR YOU DON'T HAVE THEM!!1!`

RST · 02-19-2009, 03:47 PM

I've had them up already guys -see pic below!!!!

...though I haven't had them for a year as the car was delayed in the bodyshop -it will have to go back in as well as they didn't do a good job despite very good advice from Angelo very much

The pic below is a very basic shot -taken in Edophus's garage by the way -just next to a TRD set.....

RST · 02-19-2009, 04:01 PM

Angelo, sorry. The idle is a tad erratic at the moment when you start it at first. But we've had below -10oC here and I have started the car and left it to de-frost enough to move it in the car park. I would say the intiaial running for 2-3 mins was a bit rough, after that Lyndon put in a controlled Idle control / warm-up sequence and after that everything is fine. You may get on better with your local guys -I have to travel 600miles to get a decent garage / mapper and limited time to get stuff done each time.

I fitted an l/w flywheel and uprated clutch to mine so if I try and move it off from cold or whatever they fight against you for slow speed stuff. Very controllable though it isn't unpleasant. Can't say it's that much worse than stock ever was though. I imagine my itb's will chuck in a whole load of low end problems. My mapper should be able to sort out the niggles I have so far on a second shot with my engine -it's nothing major though I do hope we get to the bottom of my higher than normal temps at some point.

MANDALAY · 02-19-2009, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RST

I've had them up already guys -see pic below!!!!

...though I haven't had them for a year as the car was delayed in the bodyshop -it will have to go back in as well as they didn't do a good job despite very good advice from Angelo very much

The pic below is a very basic shot -taken in Edophus's garage by the way -just next to a TRD set.....

Whats happened ?

puretone · 02-20-2009, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Whats happened ?

how the hell did RST ninja this forum post?? He got the answer in before you posed your question.....you ITB guys must way more leet than me

RST · 02-22-2009, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Whats happened ?

..Angelo I think you were maybe asking about my bodyshop probs. There's paint bubbling in a few spots, the guy never took the doors off to re-paint round the shuts and he built up round my nicely profiled side skirts so the doors rub now, there's a few bits which look like he hasn't put an even base coat on which seem to be more prominent than before. I think the guy took me for a ride at the end of the day -unfortunately I can't go back there after that experience.

I should have taken your advice re: the lacquer -the stuff on mine seems to scratch just by looking at it.

I'll get it sorted though.

MANDALAY · 02-23-2009, 06:00 AM

Yes i was asking about the bodyshop
Sorry to hear

The 6 months they had my car, 5 months was prep work. Gee painting was done in 5 days.
Prep is the key.
My guy has done a lot of serious cars even a ferrari GTO . If you saw his shop you would say bull#### but he is really good. Mind you he got to know what im about.
I hope you get it sorted out. We need our 2's to keep looking good 20 years from now

Mind you the guy who has 001 widebody i cant believe the short cuts he has done with his respray.
Everthing should have been taken off and individually sprayed

RST · 02-25-2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Mind you the guy who has 001 widebody i cant believe the short cuts he has done with his respray.
Everthing should have been taken off and individually sprayed

...would that be the guy I know in the UK claiming to have TRD No 001 with a 3SGE 2.2L stroker engine?

Yea I have a few things to say about that build -but I am interested in his engine as it seems a one-off original N/A (forget the car and the re-build IMO).

...he's probably seen that now LoL.

Yea the guy I trusted with the car does Daimlers and RR's -re-sprays up form £30 but I paid about 10% of that for mine. But in 5 months he managed to achieve about 2 weeks work we think and about 4 months of nothing after taking the bumper and the T-Bars off. Anyhow, 2 steps forward, one back -I'll get it sorted!! No way am I going to put off my itb's this year if I can do anything to avoid it.

RST · 02-25-2009, 05:35 PM

...Funny thing on Tuesday though. I had a voicemail from Mat at my tuners who's doing the conversion. He got delivery of my 45mm bore air horns / trumpets (diameter he checked week before off my throttles so I ordered 45mm ones much to my confusion).

He "guffawed" at me when I called back (dunno the translation)...... he screwed the measurements up and they are indeed 48mm -so he's sorted out with the supplier the direct replacement for the 45mm one's he said. LoL.

...I think I will send him a new tool kit (Including tape measure) in preparation for my build.........

...I wouldn't like him to be missing anything for when I get there.

(**should be used with adult supervision **)

02-06-2009, 02:23 PM	#1 (permalink)
RST Beams Owners Group Join Date: May 2007 Location: Inverness, Scotland Posts: 479 Thanks: 8 Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Getting very close to fitting my itb's -any comments on this please?... I’m doing a bit of thinking again at the moment as I’m close to getting round to fitting my itb’s –hoping to get the car booked in within the next month so I have it back for the sunny weather. I was wondering whether I can bounce a few things off you guys; see what you think….. …..BTW the guys doing the work for me have recently itb’d a Celica with a rev 3 3SGE and got something in the region of 200hp at the wheels during mapping with a Link G1 (though there was a fair bit of internal work performed and the CR was raised –allot of which I would have thought is stock in the red top from the start). The itb’s used weren’t great (had to be machined) and had very short trumpets which put the power band up too far for my liking. Before we go anywhere –I will be fitting the ITB’s onto a backing plate to accept a sausage shaped filter. Discuss air boxes vs. filters/socks elsewhere please. The itb’s are 48mm ID 4AGE items –using a custom red top adapter manifold which I bought second hand and I plan on using 48mmID x 40mm long trumpets available from Jenvey in the UK. The bolt pitch is wrong on the Jenvey trumpets so the filter backing plate will be used as an adapter also. MAP line’s we’re intending running vacuum lines off each throttle to a common point with a small chamber and running the MAP sensor line from that. Brake boost lines we’re intending running lines off each throttle again to a common point with a small chamber and tapping the brake booster line from there. …both these arrangements based on the experience with the recent project. I want to keep my MAP line separate whatever we do –in line with all the recommendations I’ve seen before and the one’s in my ECU instruction manual. PCV lines I am intending running them to an oil catch can which currently has no attachment for a breather filter –this will be machined and a fitting screwed in to take a small breather filter. The Phoenix Power Exhaust header seems to be out of production so I’ve asked them to quote for an equal length custom stainless 4-1 manifold –they’ve suggested 1.5” ID header pipes down to 2.5" to mate with my existing 2.5” Blue Flame twin exhaust system. I don’t particularly wish to change to a single exit so can’t see a reason to change from my current exhaust at the moment (I prefer the twin exit look by far)? A high flow sports cat will probably be fitted as I may be loosing my friendly garage for yearly MOT’s / emissions testing so keeping the de-cat section may not be a great idea. Having said that –it supposedly passed emissions on the CAT test last November no problem though I didn’t enquire into it. I have a twin 11” Spal fan kit which is going on the engine lid shortly –will be switched through the ECU. I recently drilled and bonded in short studs in the engine bay lid to bolt the fan mount to rather than relying on the existing (tired) screw holes. I’m not too sure what temp to base switching the fans on yet -I have to do a little more thinking on that one. I will probably install 2 mouldings that I have which slightly extend the side engine bay vents to scoop a bit more air into the engine bay when the car’s moving. I will probably remove the stock drivers’ side fan and install 2 ducts from coiled tubing secured at the vents and routed back to the filter to feed air directly to the filter. The engine will be going for a service /advisory at the start of the works and any parts such as oil / water pumps inspected etc. The G3 XLEM I currently have fitted should be more than capable of handling the set-up with the itb’s. The C-One flywheel and Helix Stage 1 Organic clutch I have fitted have only done a few thousand miles since fitting back in October 2008. Power-wise I’m not spectating as I'm certainly not chasing figures any more though a couple more hp would be nice –it’s currently running 183hp at the wheels. I am using the same garage and mapper / dyno centre as I used last time so I should have an accurate comparison of before and after (hopefully I should be able to get the same dyno op as well). BTW the car was mapped before on 97RON BP Ultimate and is never run on anything else –this is the most reliable source of decent duel for me. ….sorry for the long post guys, I was just wondering if you had any thoughts or pointers. I see there’s another itb’d red top appeared recently. That reminds me –I must drop Wayno a message to see how he’s getting on with his. Haven’t seen him on for a while. Thanks for looking / contributing.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

02-06-2009, 10:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
Celica RA45 Beams Owners Group Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: sunny australia Posts: 628 Thanks: 0 Thanked 44 Times in 40 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	i have waynos engine at the moment. but his inlet is 68mm long plus 74mm for the throttles and 30mm for ram tube and he siad he has about 75mm from ram tube to fire wall .i am doing so more mods on fwd inlets to see if i can get them down to 60mm for the inlet so that it gives a bit more room . on braking for booster i just use 1 inlet port, dont have to balance them all together ,and will brake fine ,and waynes is the same

02-13-2009, 12:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
Roman Beams OCD Support Group Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 946 Thanks: 23 Thanked 56 Times in 36 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	I dont have much to contribute, apart from saying... Good luck! I look foward to hearing about how it goes. And sounds.

02-15-2009, 12:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
Roman Beams OCD Support Group Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 946 Thanks: 23 Thanked 56 Times in 36 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Yeah should be able to get some nice cold air going to it... Can you monitor air inlet temps? You could experiment a bit to see what works best. But yeah, mine is so close to firing up too, I know the feeling. If not for a stupid mistake last weekend, I'd be annoying the neighbours with a rowdy, quad throttled, exhaustless beams 3S by now. Will hopefully have it running this week, fingers crossed. Will post a vid when I do! And keep us updated, that is gonna be awesome!

02-15-2009, 06:26 AM	#7 (permalink)
RST Beams Owners Group Join Date: May 2007 Location: Inverness, Scotland Posts: 479 Thanks: 8 Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I didn't know you were going quads as well at the moment. Good luck with them. The Link Display lets me see everything the ECU does -I noticed my inlet temps dropped a fair bit after I made up my filter shield. ...never thought much about this before but where do you put the IAT sensor with quads? I guessing if I'm going for a single "sausage" filter it can sit poking through the aluminium back plate?

02-15-2009, 08:44 AM	#8 (permalink)
Roman Beams OCD Support Group Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 946 Thanks: 23 Thanked 56 Times in 36 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Yep sounds logical, that's where the air is being sucked from. Do you think the aluminium plate will heatsoak from the engine much though? Like heat transferring through the block to intake to the IAT sensor... They are usually mounted in the plastic intake piping quite far from conductive engine heat. Maybe have it insulated with plastic or something? Might not make a difference either way, but just a thought.

02-15-2009, 08:53 AM	#9 (permalink)
RST Beams Owners Group Join Date: May 2007 Location: Inverness, Scotland Posts: 479 Thanks: 8 Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I think a little shield behind the plate might get fitted though every itb set-up I've seen just sits there beside the engine. I was thinking maybe using a rubber grommet round the sensor rather than fitting it directly to the plate -like they use in the stock 3SGE air box.

02-17-2009, 07:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
MANDALAY Beams Owners Group Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: victoria AUSTRALIA Posts: 4,210 Thanks: 136 Thanked 112 Times in 107 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	How you going with the link ? Any need to retune at all, cold start etc ? Did you have an OEM ecu originally and what diff do you reckon the link has had. Love to see you getting the ITB's in Good luck with it all.

02-17-2009, 08:16 PM	#11 (permalink)
Roman Beams OCD Support Group Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 946 Thanks: 23 Thanked 56 Times in 36 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	If running a MAP sensor, then yes, definitely need a retune. The signal when taken from a plenum is massively different to when taken from just the small volume in the intake runners.

02-18-2009, 11:18 PM	#12 (permalink)
puretone Beams Owners Group Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aruba, #1 BEAMS Engine on the Island Posts: 2,339 Thanks: 28 Thanked 57 Times in 56 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	PICS OF YOUR ITB'S OR YOU DON'T HAVE THEM!!1!`

02-19-2009, 04:01 PM	#14 (permalink)
RST Beams Owners Group Join Date: May 2007 Location: Inverness, Scotland Posts: 479 Thanks: 8 Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Angelo, sorry. The idle is a tad erratic at the moment when you start it at first. But we've had below -10oC here and I have started the car and left it to de-frost enough to move it in the car park. I would say the intiaial running for 2-3 mins was a bit rough, after that Lyndon put in a controlled Idle control / warm-up sequence and after that everything is fine. You may get on better with your local guys -I have to travel 600miles to get a decent garage / mapper and limited time to get stuff done each time. I fitted an l/w flywheel and uprated clutch to mine so if I try and move it off from cold or whatever they fight against you for slow speed stuff. Very controllable though it isn't unpleasant. Can't say it's that much worse than stock ever was though. I imagine my itb's will chuck in a whole load of low end problems. My mapper should be able to sort out the niggles I have so far on a second shot with my engine -it's nothing major though I do hope we get to the bottom of my higher than normal temps at some point.

02-23-2009, 06:00 AM	#18 (permalink)
MANDALAY Beams Owners Group Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: victoria AUSTRALIA Posts: 4,210 Thanks: 136 Thanked 112 Times in 107 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	Yes i was asking about the bodyshop Sorry to hear The 6 months they had my car, 5 months was prep work. Gee painting was done in 5 days. Prep is the key. My guy has done a lot of serious cars even a ferrari GTO . If you saw his shop you would say bull#### but he is really good. Mind you he got to know what im about. I hope you get it sorted out. We need our 2's to keep looking good 20 years from now Mind you the guy who has 001 widebody i cant believe the short cuts he has done with his respray. Everthing should have been taken off and individually sprayed

02-25-2009, 05:35 PM	#20 (permalink)
RST Beams Owners Group Join Date: May 2007 Location: Inverness, Scotland Posts: 479 Thanks: 8 Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	...Funny thing on Tuesday though. I had a voicemail from Mat at my tuners who's doing the conversion. He got delivery of my 45mm bore air horns / trumpets (diameter he checked week before off my throttles so I ordered 45mm ones much to my confusion). He "guffawed" at me when I called back (dunno the translation)...... he screwed the measurements up and they are indeed 48mm -so he's sorted out with the supplier the direct replacement for the 45mm one's he said. LoL. ...I think I will send him a new tool kit (Including tape measure) in preparation for my build......... ...I wouldn't like him to be missing anything for when I get there. (should be used with adult supervision )