Turning the Greytop to RedTop spec

[Protok]

Previously I thought turning the greytop into the redtop was as simple as changing the exhaust manifold (headers) and ecu. Then thereafter you had a wolf in sheeps clothing. But from reading recent threads it seems to be a little harder than that.

I myself am looking for the greytop cause first it looks good (i love the colour scheme especially to go in my engine bay) and second they seem to be more abundant and hopefully easier to get one here in the UK.

So anyone that can shed some light please go ahead and also anyone that knows where I can get a beams (i dont mind shipping really?) then please do say where.

And just to make everything a little more complicated; Has anyone tried fitting the blacktop injectors to the redtop as well as the valves?

[Edophus]

Protok surely just get a beams in and then worry about what color it is with a can of paint

why would you want to use blacktop injectors / valves?

[Protok]

Injectors are bigger so less stress on them also a bit of minimal economy improvement lol (economy while getting performance never thought I'd mention that). Also the valves on the blacktop are lighter so ofcourse would give the car that bit of improvement not to mention they are bigger than the redtop ones and alot of people change those to get an improvement in performance.

[Edophus]

Originally Posted by Protok

Injectors are bigger so less stress on them also a bit of minimal economy improvement lol (economy while getting performance never thought I'd mention that). Also the valves on the blacktop are lighter so ofcourse would give the car that bit of improvement not to mention they are bigger than the redtop ones and alot of people change those to get an improvement in performance.

protok i'd really love to know where your source of information is!

[puretone]

indeed......what the hell improvements will a lighter valve do if it's not spinning above 8000+ RPM
315cc injector versus 360cc injector? the redtop ones already operate at 80% so what kind of "less stress" are you talking about....these things are designed to last years and years at this percentage, so what are you going on about? Just wanna spray more fuel would be the logical answer....

[MANDALAY]

Injector Red Top 340.
I think this would be the last thing to think about.
Most important is that the engines are old 10 years . They most likely have been abused. How about all those losses , compression etc. An efficient swap is to locate the best engine and do it yourself.
The Celica would be better but the Grey top can easily be done but there are more parts to get, Realisticaly to get the Grey Top to RT specs would reguire a few $1,000's.
So lighter values bigger injectors are schematics your already starting with an engine that is below factory 206 horse power. Be prepared to do a lot of work by yourself , find cheap parts or you will be spending mega dollars

[Servin]

Originally Posted by Protok

Previously I thought turning the greytop into the redtop was as simple as changing the exhaust manifold (headers) and ecu. Then thereafter you had a wolf in sheeps clothing. But from reading recent threads it seems to be a little harder than that.

I myself am looking for the greytop cause first it looks good (i love the colour scheme especially to go in my engine bay) and second they seem to be more abundant and hopefully easier to get one here in the UK.

So anyone that can shed some light please go ahead and also anyone that knows where I can get a beams (i dont mind shipping really?) then please do say where.

And just to make everything a little more complicated; Has anyone tried fitting the blacktop injectors to the redtop as well as the valves?

It really is as simple as getting a red-top ECU and Headers. The rest of the stuff you'll need to get any color BEAMS into a MR2. My problem with getting a Graytop is simply the ECU, It is very hard to find a Redtop ECU here in the states. It will probably cost me another 1k to get a Redtop ECU and another 1K to get headers. So thats 2k to get it to Redtop specs and past. Added to a cost of 2K for the initial cost we are talking 4k for 170whp? Not worth it at all. So now im debating on getting a gen3 3SGE i can get one for $800 with headers already. And ill probably get the same whp as a stock BEAMS. But i really do like the BEAMS, i dont know anymore ...

[Protok]

Originally Posted by Servin

It really is as simple as getting a red-top ECU and Headers. The rest of the stuff you'll need to get any color BEAMS into a MR2. My problem with getting a Graytop is simply the ECU, It is very hard to find a Redtop ECU here in the states. It will probably cost me another 1k to get a Redtop ECU and another 1K to get headers. So thats 2k to get it to Redtop specs and past. Added to a cost of 2K for the initial cost we are talking 4k for 170whp? Not worth it at all. So now im debating on getting a gen3 3SGE i can get one for $800 with headers already. And ill probably get the same whp as a stock BEAMS. But i really do like the BEAMS, i dont know anymore ...

The BEAMS has the potential to go further than the gen3 3SGE. Headers aren't that expensive around here and I have said previously I already have an ECU (LINK G3 XLEM).
I just wanted to ask due to the greytop being easier to find than the redtop.

[Edophus]

in my opinion gen 3 3s-ge isnt at too much of a disadvantage compared to the beams, they start at 177bhp, better if you can get an early one or jap import as they dont have the egr crap. the advantage it has over the beams is if your doing bolt ons then there easy to get hold of unlike beams add ons, manifolds, exhausts all cheaper, and particlarly engine internals like cams, pistons etc are half the price of beams parts.

I've seen one with bolt ons making 196bhp and 164 ft.lb with a piggy back ecu, actually i think it was an hks f-con, not sure if thats standalone tbh, the money spent would probably be similar to a beams swap.

Also seen a couple ditch the ecu, fit carbs and manage 210bhp on the stock engine.

It is always going to be behind a beams in power, but probably by only 10-15bhp, and will have similar torque figures, so in reality performance will be on par, and the more mods you make the closer the gap will get, ultimatly the beams will be better no doubt but just how much better and how much will it cost you getting there?

[MANDALAY]

Well i had the last of the 3SGE's. It hsd only 140,000 kms and ran fantastically.
Well after taking it out and installing a new BEAMS i have to say its a totally different beast. The 3SGE would spin freely and rush but the RED TOP is awsome, you feel the power coming onas soome as you hit 4,000. The thrust feels like a turbo without any lagg. So yes its only 25 horses more but feels tottaly different. It has no crap on the engine , all that antipollution ****. I wanted it , it wasnt a dollar thing. Yes a gen 4 with cam changing and the like would get the power of the Beams or even more with a turbo but im in love with the vvti. It feels and drivers soooooo good. If i had the money i would build another one as this is a fantastic engine as would be the Black Top. But married to a MR2 its awsome. My engine still isnt really run it and it amazes me. Is it faster than the turbo's MR2 , WRX , FOCUS etc probably not but who cares but you will never be embarrased its a N/A..
Should have come on earlier virtually gave my RED TOP clip away for free.
Find the celica clips definitly better than the grey top.
BTW the exhaust manifolds on the gen 4 and beams are different also and even the B-pipe,
Even the TOYOTA EPC shows that the 3SGE pistons had 3 revisions. What were the changes i dont know but one thing for sure the last block had revised water jacket channels to even out the cooling to all 4 pistons.
As far as parts being dearer NO way if your talking new they are the same price.
Do yourself a favour use PHEONIX while you can

[Edophus]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

As far as parts being dearer NO way if your talking new they are the same price.

I meant aftermarket parts, like cams and pistons loads of choice and in general less than half the cost of the beams equivelant.

I agree though the beams is the better engine, especially just out of the box, i have an older gen 2 3s-ge at 166bhp in my second celica and whilst it makes the same torque as the beams its character is very different. Stock vs stock there is little comparison.

but i mean if your tuning it up, and you sat down and worked out what it would cost to get to a certain bhp, at different points it will make more sense to go for a gen 3 rather than beams, but at other points the beams will make more sense, of course it helps if you know what your trying to acheive!

[MANDALAY]

^ YES I AGREE.
Also there is the point if your starting with a relative cheap clip its ok to esperiment with things and if it goes wrong oh well leeon learnt. In my case there was a big investment building a new engine and wasnt / arent prepared to try unless i can see a working example in a MR2.
Plus the investment is in the shell itself with another $15,000 put there alone.
The one thing that stumps me even more is that when people discuss the turbo 3SGE i dont think that many people know that there was a fith version that never made its way into the MR2 but was in the Calinda.
It has a similar unit to the beams inlet with velocity stacks and individual packed coils NO DISTRIBUTOR.
The car is the ST215 GTT

[Protok]

What alot of people also don't realise is that the automatic beams will immediately be in better condition than the manaul counterpart due to not being redlined much!
What i want from my engine is N/A power with cams, pistons and ITBs, so easier to use the beams as its already at 197/187bhp.

I am just asking peoples opinions and their opinions on what needs to be done to even get the engine working?

[MANDALAY]

^ Agree about the auto.
I would do cams, piston ( dont know ) ITB's only with a proffessional enclosure using the standard air box BUT still havent seen it done it done in a MR2. So to gain confidence. Not prepared to experiment. There are so many things that can go wrong

[Protok]

i have been discussing with a friend the use of the turbo lid and sticking the ITBs through there would ofcourse need some kind of adapter but i am sure that is easily done. That is the one thing i dont plan on doing myself.

[Servin]

If you use ITB's be prep to cut your firewall. Getting a turbo lid wont help at all. You can fit a small length ITB without cutting but actually getting a benefit from them will probably require trunk mounted TB's.

[Protok]

I am prepared to cut the firewall but I have been told that having a bent pipe was possible but ofcourse I do not know how possible this is on the 3S

[Servin]

Curved trumpets are a possibility but less effective than straight ones. So i you go that route it is entirely possible to keep them in the engine bay and do no cutting.

[Protok]

Ye having the ends curved and coming out the engine lid would be more productive.

[Celica RA45]

the only reason the grey top doesnt make the same power as the manual red top is most of them came out as autos same goes for the auto altezza versus the manual 1 10 hp difference
i have 3 rear wheel drives and 1 red top and 1 grey top and both of the fwd motors have the same pistons valve and cam profiles and plenums .the only difference is the exhaust manifold