SUPERCHARGER

[PHOENIX]

Yes, if your doing it in steps, you can do it that way. Just make sure that your piping and intercooler holes are plugged until you install the SC.

I personally would do 5 and 6 at the same time, and tow it to a shop and have it tuned. Getting the ECU tuned to NA, then having it retuned to SC might get costly.

As far as the engine and how much PSI it will take....lots of rumors here. Rumor has it that the stock intake manifold can't hold a gastly amount of pressure although that has never been proven. In most cases the rods fail with a significant amount of PSI. I would be hesitant to push more than 15 psi through a stock bottom end.

However, your bottom end is brand new...........

But, I wouldn't risk it

I know the guy in florida (can't think of his name right now) was pushing 260rwhp on a stock block and head and had no issues although he didn't put many miles on the car and only had it running for a few weeks before an accident took the car off the road.

I will see what I can dig up as far as how much PSI he was running through the engine. I don't think your going to really have to worry about it especially if your only running 6psi through the engine.

Brashboy - I don't know anyone who is running it however I talked to them last week and I'm most likely going to pick one up in the very near future. But, i won't be able to give you a running report until February probably

[MANDALAY]

Glad to see you Back
Thanks for your input.
Yeh 5,6 would be done at the same time . The steps are so l can enjoy my summer and do the final in winter.
Yeh was think and l WILL BE NEVER TEMPTED NO MATTER WHAT just a little extra so 6 psi will be my max.
Since you have a turbo whats the real difference between the stock intercoller and the EMSpowered.
Im keeping the factory air box.
And whats the reasoning / why does the Factory Turbo have the lower sized injectors and fuel pump. Scratching my head ?

[PHOENIX]

Its been a long few months :

The 3sgte has 440cc injectors which is good for about 240hp at 80% duty cycle. The reason I would tell you to go with 550cc out of a 7mgte (I think sard makes 530cc) is it gives you a little leway to expand in the future if you so decide too.

Lots of debate about that with the intercooler question........
The actual core has been debated whether its better or not, I personally don't know. I do know that a new intercooler core will flow better than a used one since its clean. And, to be honest, it looks a lot nicer too (bling factor). The piping itself flows more as they are generally bigger.

I think you should reconsider the factory Air Box with an SC setup. If you like the airbox design, think about getting an ARC out off Yahoo Auctions Japan ($$$$).

[MANDALAY]

Cops look for non standard air boxes here
Thanks for the explaination .
Will the 7mgte injectors fit on the fuel rail with no mods ?

[PHOENIX]

Yup, we have the basic top mount Denso fuel rail.

Not all top mount fuel injectors will work, usually you have to stick to the same make....honda, denso (toyota), Bosch.

Get an ARC and powdercoat it black, they will never know the difference. I'm just pushing it because I think it will be a huge benefit for your SC.

[RedAuzBathurst94]

Victorian Cops look very closely for non standard air boxes here

Fixed

Damn cops lol

[Lion_HUN]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Thanks Dave !
That 2zz has 13 psi going into a stock engine.
Thanks

That's 1 bar, I don't think that engine is reliable this way :S

[assassin10000]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Thanks for your comments
So in simple form
Walbro fuel pump
Bigger injectors >500 cc
Colder spark plugs

Now you believe on 6 psi the standard ECU might be able to cope ?
And what happens to the Factory regulator on the fuel rail ?
Also if i take it in stages can l install the Walbro first without doing anything else ?
Why notjust yse the 3SGTE fuel pump and injectos as the factory turbo makes morethan 6 psi ?

Last ,the amount off boost is that determined by the wheel on the SC .
Does Rotrex do that calculation

1. Standard fuel rail 'might' be a 1:1, simple test - put a fuel pressure gauge on and apply pressure/boost to the vac port on the regulator. If it goes up/down 1 psi for every psi exerted you know its 1:1 and don't need to change it

2. Yes the ECU 'should' be fine on 6-8psi as long as you are running larger injectors. But if running the oem ecu you don't want to get too crazy with injector sizes as you'll loose low end and may have idle problems due to over fueling on. You may want to consider 440cc injectors, as they would still leave you a 10% flow cushion at the top end. (It's not 'ideal' but not that bad either.)

3. Yes, you can change the fuel pump whenever you want.

4. 3sgte pump would be fine, it should flow plenty of fuel. It's not who makes the pump, its just about getting a high quality one that will flow enough for your engine's requirements.

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Your thoughts if l did it in stages
1, Can l put the fuel pump in tank and then continue driving the car until next step ? then i'll
2. make necessary brackets and piping.
3. install the intercooler.
4. install injectors, continue to run the car then last install
5. ECU
6. SC
7. IF im going low boost which is half of that of the turbo, How does the turbo get away with the stock injectors , fuel pump ?
8. Im not chasing maximum figures at all. But how much PSI can this engine handle.

1. See above

2/3. Yes, but low boost s/c setups usally don't need and intercooler. 95%+ roots type eaton chargers dont need an i/c of some sort until really ripping them along.

I'd talk to the guys at rotrex and see if they have figures on how much heat they put into the air charge at lower boost levels like 6-10 psi. The heat may be minimal and not require a s/c. - saving you money, time and hassle.

4. No, must be installed with s/c or ECU to tune them if not running extra air to match with them. Otherwise you'll loose driveability and fuel efficiency (say goodbye gas mileage...).

5/6. Should be installed same time as 4. The exception being if it's a powerFC or piggyback computer that will not make any changes to the OEM fuel/timing control until after installing the S/C.

7. Turbo doesn't 'get' away with anything. Most veh's are semi conservative for safety reasons and you can 'get away' with adding extra air volume via forced induction. Most of the 'low boost' aftermarket kits (ie Greddy) give you a crappy (imo again) FMU to try and bandaid the tuning side of things.

But a force inducted set really comes alive with proper tuning of fuel and ignition to match. You can gain a LOT of power there, as well as a lot of reliability with a good tuner.

8. The engine can probably handle upwards of 30 psi. But that is a MISLEADING statement and thought. It's not about the air pressure/psi the engine can handle, it's really about the overall 'volume' of air being forced into the engine that you need to consider. That's what compressor maps are for, to tell you how much volume the item will be able to force in.

In example:
You could rock a t25 turbo @ 10psi and be fine as it will only be able to flow enough air to get you to 250-300 hp....

But if you try and run the same 10psi on a t60 turbo it could be enough air at IDLE to blow the headgasket.


p.s. I've seen 3 headgaskets pop at idle on a turbo setup where the idiot that owned the car overran the turbo and didn't tell anyone. I sure was tired of swapping engines cause we kept thinking he gave us bad engines. The 4th one we left in and told him to go away.

Originally Posted by PHOENIX

I think the standalone will be your greatest power adder with the SC.

Remember you can always get different pulleys for different power options although you are limited to the amount of power. However, once you get everything together, your greatest power adders aside from the SC and Standalone would be.....
(not breaking the seal)

Phoenix Power Manifold
Exhaust
Throttle Body

Possibly, yes, yes and yes.

Standalone can help produce more power, but that's dependant on the tuner.

A great flowing exhaust system can net significant gains with little additonal stress to the motor. Remember, engines are nothing more than air pumps. Good headers can make an awesome difference.

Throttle body can help, but on force induction motors are usally the 'last' thing to worry about.

Reason being, as engines are air pumps. The more air you force in, the more air you have to get rid of. Exhaust can make massive differences.

Andrew

[puretone]

Originally Posted by assassin10000

12:1 rising rate? I'm going to have to disagree here due to the laws of diminishing returns in regards to fuel volume vs fuel psi.

6psi @ 12:1 = an additional 72 psi on top of the stock fuel pressure. Putting you at 100psi or more. Thats more than enough fuel pressure to choke off the fuel pump's volume capacity and cause major problems with leaning the engine out.

For instance, say your using a walbro 190lph pump (58gal/hr). At 43 psi it's capable of supplying 39gal/hr, but at 100psi it'll have pressure but will only be capable of forcing less than 1gal/hr through the system.

Ref: Walbro In-tank, high-pressure Fuel Pump Specs


From personal experience dealing with both turbo & supercharger systems I'd recommend sizing up the proper injectors and tuning. Both of which will save you massive headaches and should net more power with way more reliability if you have a good tuner. Low boost (or even higher boost) and high compression isn't in the dark ages anymore, it's more about the tuning and balancing the whole setup to get it all working right. So you get a responsive engine off the boost, and the extra oomph that makes you ...

Matter a fact, on all the jackson racing s/c systems (4-5 that I've dealt with) and a couple turbo kits... the single best thing we did on these for driveability & power was to throw away the FMU and go from the 240cc injectors to 310-330cc. On the FMU they lacked power and did not run right at all. And thats without changing anything on the ecu.

The ecu doesn't care how much power the motor produces, it only looks for the proper a/f and tries to 'trim' (autotune) within the allowable limits of the factory software (up to 20% fuel trim usally). As long as the ecu 'sees' the correct resistance injectors and that it can adapt the stock maps based on the o2 sensor readings it will be fine. Or so we found with up to 10psi on the jackson racing s/c kits.

Granted it wont be perfect, but you'd be suprised sometimes what modern ecu's can cope with. As long as it's not a crazy/excessive setup it can probably be gotten away with. It will just take some driving to get the ecu to 'learn' the engine and alter itself from it's preset factory basemaps.


Once we got into some minor tuning it really opened it up...

Calculators and info aplenty on how to select injectors here:
RC Fuel Injection

IF your looking for 250 crank hp on a mildly boosted setup, you should need injectors around the 500cc mark... IF the following is true:
Desired HP = 250
# of inj. = 4
BSFC = .60
Duty cycle = 80%
Fuel pressure = 43.5

IMO a rising rate FMU is simply a bandaid for a poorly designed fuel system... one that should be torn off and thrown away. 1:1 is where I think it should be, with proper size injectors and tuning. 1:1 keeps the dynamic fuel pressure in relation to air pressure in the intake the same to keep the injectors firing consistently and making it easier to tune, if you go that route. I'm not 100% sure, but there are a lot of OEM fpr's that are 1:1... (I think thats the way it is for most N/A engines - but don't quote me on that )


Also, another thing to consider is that with boost you may want to keep a close eye on the sparkplugs. The more power (ie air/fuel) made, the hotter the combustion chamber gets. So you most likely with a 50+ hp gain will want to go atleast one stage, if not 2 stages colder, depending on your driving style and how heavy your lead foot is.

Andrew

main concern of mine is SAFETY. Hence the Vortec FMU, now it's not the most elegant solution but ALOT of people seem to use them with great results. Upgrade the fuel pump to a walbro statement is bc of the fact that the OEM pump will be operating outside of its specs of what the factory calls for, therefore yet again a SAFETY thing by upgrading to a new unit that can handle huge loads. I have yet to detonate an engine on a Vortec FMU by the way, sure at times you might hit the occasional 9.6 A/F ratio but that won't hurt anything. New Cometic head gasket is again SAFETY thing, why bother with the OEM gasket and risk blow-by if a simple 60mins with the engine's head will fix that risk...drop the compression a slight bit while at it? SAFETY...
Oh and may I suggest a great set of plugs would be NGK V-Power R5671A-8 stock number 4554.
Tuning is a MUST to make sure all remains kosher as far as A/F ratio is concerned of course, you could indeed go with a Aeromotive adjustable FPR, I have one on my engine just because I suspected my OEM FPR of going south....But remember this will also affect the low end idle fuel pressure since it doesn't change in ratio at higher vacuum levels...it's rate does not change.
Again this is a simple boosting setup, you could go the bigger injectors & piggy back route with adjustable FPR & higher LPH fuel pump, but would probably cost more and achieve similar results for the projected 6psi/50hp build.
My main concern is how the OEM MAF will react to the added pressure & volume, will it just send the 5v continuous @ boost? Or is ours opposite and will it go to 1v @ boost? And I wonder how our OEM ECU's handle such a signal.

[assassin10000]

Originally Posted by puretone

main concern of mine is SAFETY. Hence the Vortec FMU, now it's not the most elegant solution but ALOT of people seem to use them with great results.

My main concern is how the OEM MAF will react to the added pressure & volume, will it just send the 5v continuous @ boost? Or is ours opposite and will it go to 1v @ boost? And I wonder how our OEM ECU's handle such a signal.

I agree with the items for safety, nothing wrong with going to a walbro, metal headgasket, ect. But he did say he didn't want to open it up, just bolt ons. I haven't had any damage from FMU's either but none of the engines ran near as good on the FMU's. Simply removing it and dropping in the larger injectors made a world of difference. On stock ecu/stock boost of 6psi on jackson racing s/c kits.

The only thing I wasn't agreeing with is the FMU, I'm just recommending using larger/proper size injectors instead.



Yeah, if the flow exceeds the maf capabilities it'll max out a 4.x or 5v. But with that kind of flow you should be able to setup a tune based on rpm & throttle position. when not fully on throttle it should be fine for daily/cruising around. OR, since at that point your running a good standalone/piggy back you can always swap in a larger MAF. (But it should take a lot more air flow than 6psi to max it out - iirc)

Andrew

[midnite]

Hahaha either drop the BEAMS in the MK1 like it did and it fly... :-) Or just get the 3sgte BUt the supercharge concept is kinda cool...

[PHOENIX]

Originally Posted by puretone

New Cometic head gasket is again SAFETY thing, why bother with the OEM gasket and risk blow-by if a simple 60mins with the engine's head will fix that risk...drop the compression a slight bit while at it? SAFETY...

Cometic makes a headgasket for the Beams?

[MANDALAY]

Whats that ?

[PHOENIX]

Come again?

[MANDALAY]

Whats a Cometic head gasket Whats special about it ?

[PHOENIX]

Its an aftermarket metal headgasket (we have this already) however usually can be ordered in different sizes....1.0mm or 1.3mm which will allow you to drop compression a little bit without screwing with the pistons or anything.

And are usually more stronger than the stock headgaskets.

I would be interested in purchasing one if available, not for the compression drop, but for the strength.

For NA applications, our stock metal HG are more than adequate for our engines.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by PHOENIX

Its an aftermarket metal headgasket (we have this already) however usually can be ordered in different sizes....1.0mm or 1.3mm which will allow you to drop compression a little bit without screwing with the pistons or anything.

And are usually more stronger than the stock headgaskets.

I would be interested in purchasing one if available, not for the compression drop, but for the strength.

For NA applications, our stock metal HG are more than adequate for our engines.

Got you
You know the injecters you quote , l found them on the EPC . Are they not bigger than the beams to fit on the rail ? What do you do there ?
Have done some measurements and the recommended SC by Rotrex is the
C30-74 will fit easily. Th TRD brace might have to be removed though. Since theris a metal bracket over the water out-let that the engine hook is connected to i will use that to weld the plate to hold the SC. Only question to work out is to use the MR2 bracket on the Celica RED TOP one.
The celica one looks more favourable because since the SC will go where the celica has the stock alternator the is also an idle wheel with tensioner so l can use that to tension the SC belt
Installation looks very plausible. The bigest expense wil be the Stand alone.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by assassin10000

1. Standard fuel rail 'might' be a 1:1, simple test - put a fuel pressure gauge on and apply pressure/boost to the vac port on the regulator. If it goes up/down 1 psi for every psi exerted you know its 1:1 and don't need to change it

2. Yes the ECU 'should' be fine on 6-8psi as long as you are running larger injectors. But if running the oem ecu you don't want to get too crazy with injector sizes as you'll loose low end and may have idle problems due to over fueling on. You may want to consider 440cc injectors, as they would still leave you a 10% flow cushion at the top end. (It's not 'ideal' but not that bad either.)

3. Yes, you can change the fuel pump whenever you want.

4. 3sgte pump would be fine, it should flow plenty of fuel. It's not who makes the pump, its just about getting a high quality one that will flow enough for your engine's requirements.




1. See above

2/3. Yes, but low boost s/c setups usally don't need and intercooler. 95%+ roots type eaton chargers dont need an i/c of some sort until really ripping them along.

I'd talk to the guys at rotrex and see if they have figures on how much heat they put into the air charge at lower boost levels like 6-10 psi. The heat may be minimal and not require a s/c. - saving you money, time and hassle.

4. No, must be installed with s/c or ECU to tune them if not running extra air to match with them. Otherwise you'll loose driveability and fuel efficiency (say goodbye gas mileage...).

5/6. Should be installed same time as 4. The exception being if it's a powerFC or piggyback computer that will not make any changes to the OEM fuel/timing control until after installing the S/C.

7. Turbo doesn't 'get' away with anything. Most veh's are semi conservative for safety reasons and you can 'get away' with adding extra air volume via forced induction. Most of the 'low boost' aftermarket kits (ie Greddy) give you a crappy (imo again) FMU to try and bandaid the tuning side of things.

But a force inducted set really comes alive with proper tuning of fuel and ignition to match. You can gain a LOT of power there, as well as a lot of reliability with a good tuner.

8. The engine can probably handle upwards of 30 psi. But that is a MISLEADING statement and thought. It's not about the air pressure/psi the engine can handle, it's really about the overall 'volume' of air being forced into the engine that you need to consider. That's what compressor maps are for, to tell you how much volume the item will be able to force in.

In example:
You could rock a t25 turbo @ 10psi and be fine as it will only be able to flow enough air to get you to 250-300 hp....

But if you try and run the same 10psi on a t60 turbo it could be enough air at IDLE to blow the headgasket.


p.s. I've seen 3 headgaskets pop at idle on a turbo setup where the idiot that owned the car overran the turbo and didn't tell anyone. I sure was tired of swapping engines cause we kept thinking he gave us bad engines. The 4th one we left in and told him to go away.




Possibly, yes, yes and yes.

Standalone can help produce more power, but that's dependant on the tuner.

A great flowing exhaust system can net significant gains with little additonal stress to the motor. Remember, engines are nothing more than air pumps. Good headers can make an awesome difference.

Throttle body can help, but on force induction motors are usally the 'last' thing to worry about.

Reason being, as engines are air pumps. The more air you force in, the more air you have to get rid of. Exhaust can make massive differences.

Andrew

Currently l have a Remus exhaust and a high flow Cat

[assassin10000]

Which unfortunately means little to me, since I have no idea of how good a remus exhaust 'is'. I'm actually coming from the corolla world. But engines are engines...

Good flowing exh, high flow cat is all good to have. BUT after all's said and done you may end up getting a header which can gain 10-20hp on a FI setup easy and require some retuning...

Andrew

[pasqual]

Originally Posted by PHOENIX

The 3sgte has 440cc injectors which is good for about 240hp at 80% duty cycle. .

Just question about fitting injectors 440cc from 3s-gte rev2 to beams ...

will be PnP or some modification needed ????