SUPERCHARGER

[Servin]

Well the rotex supercharger is looking very plausible to add to the BEAMS but at a 2k MSRP plus goodies and EMS its going to be close to 4K. Not something im looking to spend though that is a very reasonable price for a forced induction kit and standalone.

[puretone]

Originally Posted by PHOENIX

Cometic makes a headgasket for the Beams?

Yes, custom made for a pretty $ extra, but hey than you can also ask for whatever you want & as thick as you want it.

[puretone]

Originally Posted by pasqual

Just question about fitting injectors 440cc from 3s-gte rev2 to beams ...

will be PnP or some modification needed ????

nope, 3SGTE injectors are side-feed, ours are top-feed injectors, 3SGTE injectors are low impedance (all of them IIRC thru all generations), ours are high impedance.

RC Injectors would be 550's high impedance top-feed. Happy times.

[puretone]

Originally Posted by assassin10000

Yeah, if the flow exceeds the maf capabilities it'll max out a 4.x or 5v. But with that kind of flow you should be able to setup a tune based on rpm & throttle position. when not fully on throttle it should be fine for daily/cruising around. OR, since at that point your running a good standalone/piggy back you can always swap in a larger MAF. (But it should take a lot more air flow than 6psi to max it out - iirc)

Andrew

Hmmm I wonder what the ECU will do tho, would it go 100% on the injectors at full 5v? I think I remember reading up about Denso MAF's and that anything above "0 psi" (so at normal atmosphere which is 1 bar to begin with) it won't read anything. So WOT = the most a standard MAF can read unless it's one of those Nissan Z32/33 MAF fenangles which were made for boost...doesn't the 3SGTE use a MAF as well?
I guess with the piggy-back you could always install a MAP sensor to read anything above "0 psi", at least it is what I would do for a turbo build....or if the voltage specs are available for the 3SGTE MAF...

[assassin10000]

Originally Posted by puretone

Hmmm I wonder what the ECU will do tho, would it go 100% on the injectors at full 5v? I think I remember reading up about Denso MAF's and that anything above "0 psi" (so at normal atmosphere which is 1 bar to begin with) it won't read anything. So WOT = the most a standard MAF can read unless it's one of those Nissan Z32/33 MAF fenangles which were made for boost...doesn't the 3SGTE use a MAF as well?
I guess with the piggy-back you could always install a MAP sensor to read anything above "0 psi", at least it is what I would do for a turbo build....or if the voltage specs are available for the 3SGTE MAF...

What the ECU does @ 5v depends on how the mfg tuned the ecu, some may go to a default map based on engine rpm & throttle position and run closed loop(or is that open loop? I always get them confused) since its at WOT. Others may go into limp mode. All will probably set a CEL light on newer vehicles.

Also, I 'think' most MAF sensors are oversized from the MFG otherwise they might run into issues due to variences in temp/air density/climates/ect.


Your forgetting one VERY important factor . ALL maf systems on turbo & s/c are BEFORE they see boost. Boost is a non-issue with a MAF system.

The MAF will registers airflow, by measuring air passing through it INTO the compressor (either turbo or supercharger). The max cfm/flow reading based on it's size. If you have more flow/velocity than the max your MAF can handle, you go to a bigger MAF (larger size = slower velocity, lower voltage reading/output).

But doing so requires tuning to correct for the differences in readings for the fuel map. Most of the time you can 'cheat' the system with an SAFC or similar piggy back device, it won't do quite as good a job as a standalone, but it will work pretty well.

Andrew

[PHOENIX]

Originally Posted by pasqual

Just question about fitting injectors 440cc from 3s-gte rev2 to beams ...

will be PnP or some modification needed ????

The 3sgte are side feed injectors, so NO, they will not fit. And i have no idea how to modify them to fit. you will need to change the fuel rail if you want to use side feed injectors.


Edit: whoops, already answered, a thanks puretone.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by puretone

nope, 3SGTE injectors are side-feed, ours are top-feed injectors, 3SGTE injectors are low impedance (all of them IIRC thru all generations), ours are high impedance.

RC Injectors would be 550's high impedance top-feed. Happy times.

The 3SGTE had a final version not in the MR2 though. It has packed coils and an inlet on the side similar to the red top.
May be with this version the injectors changed ? to high impedance ?

[puretone]

you could switch to side-feed injectors if you have a resistor box and fabbed up your own fuel rail to suit.....takes forever tho
MAF & AFM, its an AFM that most turbo cars have.....still I wonder tho, the turbo cars have them @ the turbo intake don't they?

[MANDALAY]

How about these ones SARD
63516 (4 X 530cc) TOYOTA ALTEZZA (SXE10 3S-GE VVT-i) CELICA (ZZT231 2ZZ-GE) MR-S (ZZW30 1ZZ-FE) 530cc Top, High Impedance, 4 Hole, Pale Blue (Pic 8) Time 1.1 msec AU $ 411.11

[PHOENIX]

^ sounds about right, check with the board sponsor here on the board, emspowered, I think he can get them and might be able to beat that price.

[puretone]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

How about these ones SARD
63516 (4 X 530cc) TOYOTA ALTEZZA (SXE10 3S-GE VVT-i) CELICA (ZZT231 2ZZ-GE) MR-S (ZZW30 1ZZ-FE) 530cc Top, High Impedance, 4 Hole, Pale Blue (Pic 8) Time 1.1 msec AU $ 411.11

this dude is/was using SXE10 injectors, so in essence you could use injectors made for the Altezza

maikl

[MANDALAY]

So EVERY THING looks ok
Out of curiosity what is the volume pumped buy the std intank fuel pump ?
Will it be enough for the 530 cc injectors ?

[Servin]

Oh another important thing with all this talk of afm or maf is use a diverter valve or recircuting valve. It better for cars equipped with those sensors a BOV is meant for cars that use MAP or manifold air pressure to regulate air/fuel. Using a diverter valve is best for the mr2 that way it will have the proper a/f readings.

[MANDALAY]

Spent this morning going over my car , the mechanic and the beams clip l gave him.
Looks like the best way to approach this exercise is :
Put the alternator in the Celica position,
Make a bracket to hold the SC in the MR2 alternator position. Dont add the belt at this stage. This way i can always drive the car.
Bend pipe from the air box , go down and pipe it to the SC.
Out SC then go to a water / air intercooler a round one like a torpedo which is bracketed to the engine.
Then up to the thottle body. There is a lot of space b/w the engine under the inlet manifold and the Trunk wall
Then oil cooler for the SC and radiator for the intercooler infront of a fan on the side air intake to the engine bay. This SC is self contained no plumbing oil to the engine.
A quiet blow off valve.
So all piping is no where near the exhaust. The SC is hiden.
All piping will be powder coated black with black silicon connections to give an untouched look.
530 cc injectors, Red Top Rail.
MoTec 400.
Run then see if fuel pump needs to be changed.
Have been told Stock MAF will be OK ,Head gasket is ok
There you go now start to save
The only thing that will stop this from going ahead is that l MUST be able to get RTA approval .
Is there anything else that l have missed ?
Will run into $10,000 but half of that is the Motec and tunning.
So the engine components are unchanged
And even with a 6 psi boost were looking at 280 horses but will run like an oversized beams with out the annoying spool up of a turbo .
Im Not chasing numbers. If anyone looks at the Rotrex site will see that this SC is a perfect companion to our Beams engines as the SC doesnt loose power it just keeps on going up with the revs until you back off and change a gear.
So no plateauing , no lag , no heat , small and quiet
Will bring the car to 5 sec quarter miles
Then for all the number chasers since the SC is rated at 200 to 400 horses change the pulley remove the air box and hold on...................................
Yes there could be cheaper ECUs that can do it but ild prefer MoTec because it will do the whole engine, vvti , they have the reputation, they have the backup, my best mates brother works there and their head quaters is no more than 2miles from my work

[puretone]

best practice for aftermarket ECU's , and i have first hand experience with this issue, is go with an ECU that has local support. So don't go installing some spiffy ECU if no one in your area knows jack about it.
The OEM BEAMS pump I think is 190lph, so I would go with a walbro 255lph on those injectors, you would be cutting it close with a 190lph and 550-ish injectors.

what's this 5 second 1/4 mile business you speak of?

[cps_goodbuy]

5sec 0-60?

I'm watching this very closely, I have a 1999yr 64kmtrs Beams mr2 which I'd sc given the chance and money

[MANDALAY]

Sorry puretone l meant to say 0 to 60 miles to get close to 5 sec's.
Also another 2 points every one says the celica and MR2 water outlet pipe are different and need to be changed when putting a Celica clip into a MR2 but side by side they are the same ?
Also on the SC . All write ups about installations regarding the Rotrex. Noone has upgraded their injectors or their full pump . They are running low boost 5 psi also they didnt even include a intercooler ? All they have done is add a pippyback ECU.

COMMENTS

[assassin10000]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Also on the SC . All write ups about installations regarding the Rotrex.

Noone has upgraded their injectors or their full pump .

They are running low boost 5 psi also they didnt even include a intercooler?

All they have done is add a pippyback ECU.

1. Fuel pump upgrade is dependant on the car and stock equipment. The cars they've gone on 'may' have had enough capacity.

2. They may be within the abilities of the stock injectors, but NOT within a safe buffer zone of the injector duty cycle. Again, depends on the car and whats equipped stock.

3. As I said before, low boost applications on a S/C usally dont NEED an intercooler.

Because the supercharger itself isn't heated up by the exhaust like a turbo.

And that on low boost levels the heat gain is relatively minimal and doesn't cause a big enough increase in heat (& loss of air density) to hurt the setup.

And a water/air intercooler may actually heat up the intake charger more when cruising... Depending on how much/little heat the rotrex produces/actually ends up working.

4. Piggy back may be enough for them to tune the stock injectors to open up long enough on a 'low boost' setup that they do provide enough fuel (refer #2) but as I said. It may not be within the safe duty cycle.


My thoughts on a low boost setup, Supercharger, correctly sized fuel pump, injectors and Tuning. I don't think there is a large need for an intercooler if less than 10lbs boost on a supercharger.

Piggy back can be done, or you can step up to a standalone if your budget allows, whatever works for you.

Andrew

[puretone]

yeah water/air intercooler tends to have issues with heat-soak unless you get lots and lots of air rushing around the water cooler, unless you do something spiffy with ice, but thats impractical. The OEM ones on the Celica share the radiator coolant IIRC for the water/air intercooler, huge heat-soak....the spot the MR2 has its OEM air/air intercooler is great for lots of cold air rushing passed . Heck I'm NA and I have an intercooler on my rig...I DEFINITELY notice the extra torque of always having dence/colder air. Though true that it hard would be any benefit, I happen to have my car in a part of the world where it's 110F on a daily basis so the intercooler causes a noticeable (i feel the actual cold feeling air on my hand) drop in intake air temp. I will try and probe it & get numbers in the near future when I'm with my ride again.

I would intercool just because. I know you will try to boost more in the future. Piping might be hell, it was for me and I did it for the second time in the same Celica, this time with 2.75" piping.

Fuel-pump upgrade is just for safety issue down the road, unless you have a new OEM pump in there, I would just upgrade, especially because you will probably put the pump on a larger restriction from the FPR.

As far as injectors go, I would spend a night with a bottle of wine over that one. Upgrading injectors is for the operating/duty cycle issue you might run into on the OEM injectors, furthermore it would be great to have upgraded injector *should* you go to more boost. They can be expensive. Do realize that you would possibly be running too rich in idle with bigger injectors, that can be because of the duty cycle they will run at in idle, wierd? No. Think of it running 1% duty cycle at idle, or however many % it is at idle, that 1% of 550cc is more than the 1% the OEM 360cc (correct cc's?) is running at. First hand experience of mine: trying to get 1000cc injectors to run smoothly/lean enough at idle on a honda-build I have been involved with. Rich as sin, considering that same engine used to run 200cc injectors LOL. Tuning was a bitch because even the base-line setting for those 1000cc injectors at idle RPMs was so rich that it would produce a rough time at idle.
Perhaps 400/440cc injectors would be enough....I predict you getting boost-happy and turn things up after less than a year

Piggy-back, yes, cheaper, possibly simpler than full custom ECU. Your call. If you got the money, hit up MoTeC. Judgement call.

[MANDALAY]

Besides the sard 530cc ive seen has anyone spotted 440 - 480 cc top ?