SUPERCHARGER

[puretone]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Got the chance to drive at turbo MR2. W ent fast , really fast ! My driving skills with a turbo are not there at all . felt so uneasy with turns. When that kick comes in **** on the turn. Whereas l can push my beams and its so well controlled Mind you this guy was so impressed at the speed and agility of my car and wanted to have a better look if l had a SC or turbo.
So l have to say the turbo is not for me.
With the contact im looking at the SC set up using the Rotrex.
This is new for the MR2 with no installs done at all. But a dozen have been done on the Celica 2ZZ.
My questions are
Is the 2ZZ a stronger engine than ours ?
A few have been done with injector up size to 630cc but no upgrade of their stock fuel pump . Is our fuel pump stronger than the 2 ZZ ?
Mind you ill only be getting 440 cc. Are the RC injectors reputable ?
The SC pulley will limit my increase to about 8 psi maximum roughly 260 HP. What do you guys reckon , Can our engine handle it without comprimising the engine.
Man these guys are running stock internals with CR 11.5 : 1 AND ARE BOOSTING 13 psi with no problems. Getting 325 HP From an engine thats roughly 160 HP !
With a MoTec and the right tuner will it idle perfectly and do all what the factory ECU does perfectly.That is idle, start up , cold/hot and not loose the beautiful revving engine ste up l have now. In other words totally transparent ?
Lastely anyone else considering also SC set up as to set the machining in CAD will just be a bit extra BUT if no one is interested l can save a bit as it wont be necessary because it will be custom.
The way it will be set up is totally invisible even to a trained eye. And i will use the clip engine for all the necessary designing.

Cheers

whoa yeah I can imagine the boost-building will come as a surprise, whenever I drive a boosted I always make sure I am close to where the turbo is about to spool its boost up....yes it does require a different driving style, and does take a bit to figure out on a per car basis...

AFAIK the 2ZZ engines pop like teenage zits. Oil pumps break left and right...running boost on a high compression engine requires you to run it safely with VERY GOOD TUNING....from what my tuning buddies tell me its all about fueling & timing to get things right at higher compression levels, it does remain less forgiving though, hence they prefer dropping the compression a bit.

Last I checked RC Injectors are market leaders
I hear they are even used in aircraft industry...must be reliable enough if its good enough for those airplance guys!

[MANDALAY]

I hope they use them on Quantas ( Aussie ) as their the only plane that haveny fallen out of the sky
Thanks buddy.
This SC just sounds sooooo great

[Lion_HUN]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Is the 2ZZ a stronger engine than ours ?

It a very different kind of engine. It's almost 10HP less than the BEAMS, and most of it's power comes when the valve lifting is switched, over 6000RPM. Because of this and because it's only 1.8 it has less torque as well. I think the the BEAMS is more balanced and stronger, but the 2ZZGE is a very good engine as well.

However, the ultimate NA engine could be a BEAMS with internals modified to rev higher, and with the 2ZZ's valve lifting technology installed somehow

[puretone]

Originally Posted by Lion_HUN

It a very different kind of engine. It's almost 10HP less than the BEAMS, and most of it's power comes when the valve lifting is switched, over 6000RPM. Because of this and because it's only 1.8 it has less torque as well. I think the the BEAMS is more balanced and stronger, but the 2ZZGE is a very good engine as well.

However, the ultimate NA engine could be a BEAMS with internals modified to rev higher, and with the 2ZZ's valve lifting technology installed somehow

yeah i really REALLY wish we could somehow mod our VVTi to include the L as well for lift, we would sooooo smoke the hell out of any Honda engine then....

MANDALAY, its piston engines in cesna's and stuff....

[MANDALAY]

**** them im in trouble There is one coming down once a week . And dam i live next to a light commercial airport

[MANDALAY]

Here is a question.

Quote
-190 lph Walbro
-630 Seimens Injectors

292 rwhp, enough fuel (aka reasonable duty cycles for the injectors with sufficient fuel for a good AFR), still runs good!

This is on a 1ZZ .

So is our stock fuel pump better than the Walbro 190 lph ?
Is the stock unit ok for the 440 cc injectors ?

[MANDALAY]

Working on the plan
Put the alternator in the Celica position near the exhaust manifold. Use all factory stock components for that.
This frees up the alternator position for the SC. Make a bracket for the SC where the alternator was. Use the threaded holes on the block that the alternator was mounted on.
Use the alternator belt to drive the SC.
Now i need to add a tensioning wheel as the SC has to be permanant mounted and within 15 degrees horizontal.
Please anyone to help on this . Prefer a standard Toyota part.
The oil to drive the Rotrex will be piped to the oil cooler which will be set up on the right side engine air intake infront of the engine fan.
Question as mine is a N/A that fan only comes on when the engine bay is hot.
Question, in a turbo that fan is in front of the A/A intercooler is the fan always on ? or only on as with the N/A ? Does it suck air into the engine bay or out like the N/A
The resevior that comes with the Rotex and filter will also be near the fan for easy checking and also provide some air movement. The piping will consist of both hose and pipes so as to not look like aftermarket.
Air will come through the std air box but the MAF disconnected. 3 inch pipe will then go from the air box down the left side and behind the engine below the inlet manifold to the SC. The SC has a 3 inch inlet opening.
Then out of the SC to a PWR A/W intercooler. Sausage type. Then to a SUPRA Inline MAF. Then into the Throttle body.
I need a reciculating BOV that goes between the BEFORE AND AFTER the SC as to stop build up of pressure when the TB is closed
Recommendations please.
The A/W intercooler will be plumbed again with pipes and hoses to a front mounted radiator and use a bosch pump. Is this the best pump ?
The wiring for the Supra MAF has to be wired correctly as the pins are a different order.
All the pipes are going to be Flat Black powder coated.
The A/W intercooler will also use threaded holes on the block for support with black silicon connectors where required between the pipes .
The pulley for the SC will be roughly 105 mm but it has to be calculated so as to give me max 8 psi at 7000 rpm and not get the Rotrex to work out of its limits. To do this can anyone tell me the diameter of the pulley on the Crank that runs the alternator ?
Now increase injectors to 440cc . But does the fuel pump need to be changed ?
Finally a Motec 400 to run it and a very good tuner
2zz owners have this set up and all get high HP and claim even with their 11.5 compression 60 HP is well with in its safe limits with stock engine . What do you guys reckon ? They say its all up to the tunning and not pushing it to high. Choose the SC pulley correctly so as to limit the pressure.
Also use a VW wide band O2 sensor.
MAF SHOULD BE BEFORE the TB as it will be the most stable as it will be constant velocity and temp .
Everyone who has put an air pod with the MAF straight after it has changed it to this position due to problems, air pulsating .
They then experinent with smaller pulleys and restrictors on the inlet to the SC so as to increase low end torque without increasing the overall PSI
Have l left anything out ?
Any help would be nice.

[Roman]

If you're going to use a motec computer, then why not go for a MAP sensor setup instead?

[puretone]

Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator please.....Upgraded injectors will probably require a non-OEM FPR to run at the correct amount of cc's/min

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by Roman

If you're going to use a motec computer, then why not go for a MAP sensor setup instead?

Yes really this is one of the things that really needs to be discussed.
Nearly all the guys doing the Rotrex SC on the spyder, celica, lotus are using Power FC.
No one has used a Motec most likely $.
Will the MAP be better that the MAF.
Please can you please tell me the difference in real; terms . What will i gain

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by puretone

Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator please.....Upgraded injectors will probably require a non-OEM FPR to run at the correct amount of cc's/min

Thats what im not getting. Some have upgraded to 255 Walbro while others have their stock pump ?

[MANDALAY]

Whats EVAP and PCV capture ?

[puretone]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Thats what im not getting. Some have upgraded to 255 Walbro while others have their stock pump ?

the thing about the walbro is it is higher quality (generally) and can provide the necesary volume & pressure (well within specs, similar to injector duty cycle...) for the injectors & FPR......using a smaller/stock lph pump will be doing alot more work I am assuming. My guess would be that the fuel line will have less pulsations in fuel pressure. IMHO I would replace pump just because, bigger & new pump is always good....i would just go for the high performance over OEM

[puretone]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Whats EVAP and PCV capture ?

thats the charcoal canister for sulfur emission from the crank no?

[MANDALAY]

Cool

[assassin10000]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

1. Use the alternator belt to drive the SC.

2. Question, in a turbo that fan is in front of the A/A intercooler is the fan always on ? or only on as with the N/A ? Does it suck air into the engine bay or out like the N/A

The resevior that comes with the Rotex and filter will also be near the fan for easy checking and also provide some air movement. The piping will consist of both hose and pipes so as to not look like aftermarket.

3. Air will come through the std air box but the MAF disconnected. 3 inch pipe will then go from the air box down the left side and behind the engine below the inlet manifold to the SC. The SC has a 3 inch inlet opening.

Then out of the SC to a PWR A/W intercooler. Sausage type.
Then to a SUPRA Inline MAF. Then into the Throttle body.

4. I need a reciculating BOV that goes between the BEFORE AND AFTER the SC as to stop build up of pressure when the TB is closed. Recommendations please.

5. The A/W intercooler will be plumbed again with pipes and hoses to a front mounted radiator and use a bosch pump. Is this the best pump ?

6. All the pipes are going to be Flat Black powder coated.

The A/W intercooler will also use threaded holes on the block for support with black silicon connectors where required between the pipes .

7. Now increase injectors to 440cc . But does the fuel pump need to be changed?

8. 2zz owners have this set up and all get high HP and claim even with their 11.5 compression 60 HP is well with in its safe limits with stock engine . What do you guys reckon ? They say its all up to the tunning and not pushing it to high. Choose the SC pulley correctly so as to limit the pressure.

9. MAF SHOULD BE BEFORE the TB as it will be the most stable as it will be constant velocity and temp .
Everyone who has put an air pod with the MAF straight after it has changed it to this position due to problems, air pulsating .

10. They then experinent with smaller pulleys and restrictors on the inlet to the SC so as to increase low end torque without increasing the overall PSI

1. That will work, and is how all the jackson-racing s/c setups for honda b-series motors work. As long as the pulley alignment is dead on you won't have a problem. Personally, IF possible I'd look into custom pulleys to run a wider belt for more grip. On belt driven S/C systems you can run into excessive amounts of slip.

By if possible I mean if it's not a nightmare to do. Some toyota cranks run an accessory pulley that is removable from the main crank pulley and you could have one machined with a few extra rows (& diameter of your choice).

2. On most setups the fan doesn't need to be on at all times. Just like a radiator, usually once the car is moving the air flow through it is plenty to cool the radiator/intercooler.

Drifters (usally s13/s14's) with poor ducting/airflow can run into issues and will sometimes wire a switch to constantly run the fan.

3. See #9 below

4. A cheap, and stock looking bypass valve. Is one off a 1.8T Volkswagen turbo motor. Last I checked they're less that $40 USD brand new.

5. Bosch pumps are good. You might even be able to use the aux electrical waterpumps from that same 1.8T volkswagen motor.

But as said previously. I 'still' don't think this is necessary for your power goals. But it will help, and it's your car .

6. Perhaps instead of powder coating, I'd recommend getting black 'crinkle' paint, usually used for repainting Honda valvecovers. It makes intercooler piping look like much closer to 'stock' plastic stuff.

7. I'd recommend it. Since your goals are way less than 350 hp a Walbro 190lph pump will be plenty. If you get it, go for the 'high' pressure version. Be sure to use a fuel pressure regulator that bumps fuel pressure 1psi for each psi of boost to keep the fuel flow rate linear (good for tuning/driveability).

Stock FPR's usually work that way, You can check by using a fuel pressure gauge and applying air pressure to the stock FPR vacuum line.

8. 60hp on a good tune should be well within the limits of most motors.

9. Since your running a MAF system, it should be placed BEFORE the supercharger. MAF's are designed to measure the air coming into the system - BEFORE being compressed. With it behind the S/C changes in boost pressure & actual 'volume' due to ambient temperatures will make it very hard to get a good tune.

Just find a way to place your 'supra' or other MAF at the airbox. That also makes it much easier to plumb your 'bypass' valve in the system which prevents the 'surging' issue I think you were refering to.

10. You can also use larger crank pulleys (see #1). The jackson-racing s/c setups for honda's I mentioned above had custom pulleys made available from the MFG with larger diameters to run the s/c RPMS up and increase boost. Also, some figured out pulleys from other 'models' of the b-series had different diameters and were cheap/easy upgrades in size for extra boost without the pricetag.

You might be able to use a different year 3sge/gte crank pulley (if it lines up with the beams) to get a larger diameter pulley without the extra cost of having one custom made.


Andrew

[MANDALAY]

^ thanks for your comments
Cant do a custom pulley as the alternator belt is on the inside wheel. Making it a 6-8 groove will cause the other belt to be out of alignment.
Is the standard toyota pump the same volume as the 190 lph Walbro ?
Not trying to save money but as you would know changing the fuel pump is a **** on the MR2.
The spyder guys who had the MAF before the SC all had problems . They all have relocated them to just before the Throttle Body.
Also the MAF on theirs is the same part number as ours on the SW20 . Given that it would be wise to go with the Supra unit as they all have done also. There was experimentation with the WRX MAF and designing the 3 inch line but in the end it was easier just to get the Supra MAF.
btw if i want more power all that has to be done is decrease the diameter of the SC pulley.
I like to start with a large one first to limit the boost , then see how l go.
There is a practice that to use a small wheel then to restrict the the opening of the input of the SC so as to increase bottom end torque.

Anyone know the pulley diameter on the crank for the alternator belt ?
Yeh Jackson - racing have done quite a few conversions. Like you said some of them dont even have the Intercooler , but then again low boost.

[assassin10000]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

^ thanks for your comments

Is the standard toyota pump the same volume as the 190 lph Walbro ?
Not trying to save money but as you would know changing the fuel pump is a **** on the MR2.

The spyder guys who had the MAF before the SC all had problems . They all have relocated them to just before the Throttle Body.

Also the MAF on theirs is the same part number as ours on the SW20 . Given that it would be wise to go with the Supra unit as they all have done also.

Yeh Jackson - racing have done quite a few conversions. Like you said some of them dont even have the Intercooler , but then again low boost.

No problem.

I dunno, I know the 190lph is good for 432 hp @ 12v & 50psi (I also usually give myself a 20% safety barrier on capacity just like injectors & 'assume' that the pumps are good for approx 350 hp). I think that's a large enough cushion to your goal of 260hp. I dunno what the stock MR-2 pumps are rated, but I came across this on a quick search (which may not apply to the beams pumps):

http://www.wolfkatz.com/Articles/MR2...g%20Report.pdf

Also I like to reference Auto Performance Engineering - Walbro fuel pumps and more - technical & FAQ sections. They have a few formulas/charts & info on flow rates for the walbro pumps. (This is also where myself and several friends get their walbro fuel pumps from - beware the ebay ones. Many of the honda guys have ended up with fake ones that failed shortly after purchase, or lead to blown motors)

The MAF problem may just be due to the design of the Beams/spyder MAF. Especially since they're plagued with problems when installing cone filters without a special adapter to straighten airflow past the 'hotwire'. Or it could be that it's exceeding the volume of airflow the MAF sensor is capable of handling...

Under 10psi is low boost IMO... All the honda kits are sans intercooler (roots type s/c). And they made plenty of reliable power on several cars I helped install them into.

Andrew

[MANDALAY]

Thanks for that info Interesting reading.
Now can you over kill ? $ are roughly the same so 255 high pressure on with a FPR ?
The stock FPR has a return and also a vent to the charcoal cansister . Do these aftermarket ones have that also ?
Yeh no one had stock air boxes so i guess thats whats screwing up the MAF.
I want to run the stock box maybe the MAF wont max out. If that fails then add the supra MAF.Pressure drop b/c using the stock box wont bother me as the SC makes plently of air. Im not chasing max HP where i need max flow through a canister.
The SC is rated up to 400 HP. MORE CONCERN IS NOT TO OVER BOOST.

[MANDALAY]

double post