SUPERCHARGER

[MANDALAY]

Since installing my Beams this has always crossed my mind. Don't get me wrong , l am truely impressed by the Red Top
But ive looked into ways of getting the extra power with the smallest of negative outcomes. $ is an issue but go wth me here . l would like to know members thoughts and views. Everything has its merits but lets stay positiveand focused please. The N/A is a beautiful engine which l dont want to comprimise its longevity. An extra 50 horses would be tremendous.
Ive come across the ROTREX SC. This unit is small and compact enough to fitvery easily even with theair compressor. Its a turbine and spins faster than a turbo. It has its own oil cooling system. There are units being installed in all sorts of vehicles and all over the world.
Given l get the SC are these the only other things l need to do ?
Bigger injectors the supra. Remember the Beams are 340 cc. What will l need?
Intercooler prefer water/air . Who makes on fit in the stock turbo location with the radiator up front ( rogue ? )
Blow off valve . Which is the best?reliable.
ECU piggyback ?
l only want 6 psi as l said l dont want to comprimise the engine.
All information would be grately appreciated...............

[cps_goodbuy]

I don't have the experience to suggest anything constructive, but I'm toying with the idea of sc or tc with a high octane fuel without modifying the beams internals.

or plain nitrous? biggest bang for a buck....or just bang

[Servin]

A stock turbo intercooler would be enough for you needs but question is fitting it into the bay along with the other items accompying the S/C kit.

Also add to that list a Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator aswell.

[puretone]

superchargers run off of a belt that is driven by the engine's crank, parasitic. Now I personally would not bother with this especially since building your own 'turbo-kit' can be much simpler & easier. Then again I am biased bc I have done this a few times now with other engines, at this point I do not want to mess with the red-top (though I have all the materials for the turbo manifold ready & a smallish turbo). From my experience I can garantee you the 50 extra HP will great and all but you will be craving a WHOLE lot more pretty soon after. It is called BHS, an honest to god affliction. Boost-Happy-Syndrome will cause you to go mad & throttle heavy very VERY often.
I am pretty sure you will want more. Now you can possibly do this boosting safely up to 8psi with the stock parts (or so the rumor goes), my previous 5SFE I boosted all the way up to 14/15psi during spikes and it held up perfectly. I would personally get a Cometic head gasket made just for safety and allow a slight drop in compression, this would however seem to be a sad thing to do to the red-top tho. A FPR in the form of a Vortec FPR, Vortech Engineering: Viewing product: Fuel Management Unit or close to that, rising rate 12:1 *AND* with this little unit you can keep your current injectors, should be safe-ish on your suggested 6psi. Of course an adjustable FPR would be nice too, but this vortec one is simple & easy. As for the blow off valve, I would go for an R2D2 from SARD, low profile & slick. Upgrade to a Walbro fuel pump. Safety.

This going into an MR2 isn't it? Might be a bit more of a pain to build your own turbo manifold for an MR2, since its sorta put back there in the back of the car and not as easily reached like it can be in a Celica....

I have an intercooler placed on my ST184 already, my version of cold-air-intake and it makes a pretty big torque difference. I will need to hit the Dyno for figures still. I installed it pretty much to have this part of my baby-steps RedTopTurbo build out of the way already. It is a huge-ish EVO8 sized intercooler, see attached. It's 3.5 inches thick, all piping in & out of the IC is 2.5 / 2.75", as well as to the MAF is 2.5 / 2.75"

Side-note, I busted my Koyo radiator, put a nice hole in the lower part of the core Gonna find me an adequate alu-welder who can fix that for me & invest in some of that chicken-fence screen crap to prevent pebbles & rocks from hitting it again....

[puretone]

Originally Posted by Servin

A stock turbo intercooler would be enough for you needs but question is fitting it into the bay along with the other items accompying the S/C kit.

Also add to that list a Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator aswell.

SW20's have that intercooler sitting in the rear quarter panel some place IIRC, plenty good ebay quality SW20 intercoolers to be found, big ones too & for cheap, getting the piping to run to it will probably be a large pain, depending on where you will be able to place the supercharger....my guess would be some place near the MR2's alternator?

[MANDALAY]

My reasoning is this . The red top has been installed in a MR2 with the alternator in the Celica position JDMsw20. So thats where the Rotrex SC would go its about the same size. Rotrex has said an air to air cooler is more than adeqete as it doesnt get hot. So how about just the MR2 turbo intercooler or what is a better one especially made up for the MR2 ?
They said the fuel pump, injectors are of just add a fuel regulator

[Servin]

Could you post some pictures? A big issue with the supercharger is the lack of space and this big factor why you don't see any kits for na mr2s. Depending on the size of the s/c you will have to also have a custom exhaust manifold made. You are on the other mr2 board right? Check out medpilots thread about his supercharger project so you can see what goes into something like this. Though his build is much larger so just use it as a rough blueprint.

[MANDALAY]

Servin, l got no idea how to do links. If you do link Rotrex
Yeh that other thread , realy is spending to much time on the exhaust but most likely a problem due to the size of the SC. But then again i have seen photos of an Eaton SC with no mods on the exhaust other than a bit of hitting on the heat sheild. I have that picture still if you PM me your email ill forward it to you.
But the Rotrex SC is very small 5 inch x 5 inches . Its about the size of the air con compressor.

[Servin]

Wow this sounds very plausible if it is truly that small. I going to look at that link and do some thinking/research and I'll let you know what I think of it.

[MANDALAY]

I want to run only a small boost approx 6 psi. Given that is there anyone who can tell tell me what what size injector is appropriate. Memory serves me correct the AW 11 with supercharger only is 315cc. Given that l run high octane >98 and will be low boost it has been suggested that the Beams injectors are ok maybe only a slight increase required.

Also since im a N/A guy can anyone tell me the workings of the MR2 turbo cars fan / intercooler.
The fan in my car only comes on when the engine bay is hot and sucks the air from the engine bay out.
Is this the same with the turbo ? Or is it on all the time to cool the air/air intercooler ?

[pasqual]

[MANDALAY]

Thats the one.
That looks like the C30 . I emailed Rotrex to see if the C15 will be ok given the low boost l want.

[assassin10000]

Originally Posted by puretone

A FPR in the form of a Vortec FPR, Vortech Engineering: Viewing product: Fuel Management Unit or close to that, rising rate 12:1 *AND* with this little unit you can keep your current injectors, should be safe-ish on your suggested 6psi.

12:1 rising rate? I'm going to have to disagree here due to the laws of diminishing returns in regards to fuel volume vs fuel psi.

6psi @ 12:1 = an additional 72 psi on top of the stock fuel pressure. Putting you at 100psi or more. Thats more than enough fuel pressure to choke off the fuel pump's volume capacity and cause major problems with leaning the engine out.

For instance, say your using a walbro 190lph pump (58gal/hr). At 43 psi it's capable of supplying 39gal/hr, but at 100psi it'll have pressure but will only be capable of forcing less than 1gal/hr through the system.

Ref: Walbro In-tank, high-pressure Fuel Pump Specs


From personal experience dealing with both turbo & supercharger systems I'd recommend sizing up the proper injectors and tuning. Both of which will save you massive headaches and should net more power with way more reliability if you have a good tuner. Low boost (or even higher boost) and high compression isn't in the dark ages anymore, it's more about the tuning and balancing the whole setup to get it all working right. So you get a responsive engine off the boost, and the extra oomph that makes you ...

Matter a fact, on all the jackson racing s/c systems (4-5 that I've dealt with) and a couple turbo kits... the single best thing we did on these for driveability & power was to throw away the FMU and go from the 240cc injectors to 310-330cc. On the FMU they lacked power and did not run right at all. And thats without changing anything on the ecu.

The ecu doesn't care how much power the motor produces, it only looks for the proper a/f and tries to 'trim' (autotune) within the allowable limits of the factory software (up to 20% fuel trim usally). As long as the ecu 'sees' the correct resistance injectors and that it can adapt the stock maps based on the o2 sensor readings it will be fine. Or so we found with up to 10psi on the jackson racing s/c kits.

Granted it wont be perfect, but you'd be suprised sometimes what modern ecu's can cope with. As long as it's not a crazy/excessive setup it can probably be gotten away with. It will just take some driving to get the ecu to 'learn' the engine and alter itself from it's preset factory basemaps.


Once we got into some minor tuning it really opened it up...

Calculators and info aplenty on how to select injectors here:
RC Fuel Injection

IF your looking for 250 crank hp on a mildly boosted setup, you should need injectors around the 500cc mark... IF the following is true:
Desired HP = 250
# of inj. = 4
BSFC = .60
Duty cycle = 80%
Fuel pressure = 43.5

IMO a rising rate FMU is simply a bandaid for a poorly designed fuel system... one that should be torn off and thrown away. 1:1 is where I think it should be, with proper size injectors and tuning. 1:1 keeps the dynamic fuel pressure in relation to air pressure in the intake the same to keep the injectors firing consistently and making it easier to tune, if you go that route. I'm not 100% sure, but there are a lot of OEM fpr's that are 1:1... (I think thats the way it is for most N/A engines - but don't quote me on that )


Also, another thing to consider is that with boost you may want to keep a close eye on the sparkplugs. The more power (ie air/fuel) made, the hotter the combustion chamber gets. So you most likely with a 50+ hp gain will want to go atleast one stage, if not 2 stages colder, depending on your driving style and how heavy your lead foot is.

Andrew

[Lion_HUN]

I don't see the point of getting an extra 50 HP out of the BEAMS by turbo/supercharging it. It will be difficult for sure. If you want 250HP you should have a 3. gen 3SGTE. And if you want more, that's a better point to start as well. Couple of guys with MRs in my country use that engine with ~300HP and it goes very good, reliable and quite balanced with hardened suspension and brakes.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by assassin10000

12:1 rising rate? I'm going to have to disagree here due to the laws of diminishing returns in regards to fuel volume vs fuel psi.

6psi @ 12:1 = an additional 72 psi on top of the stock fuel pressure. Putting you at 100psi or more. Thats more than enough fuel pressure to choke off the fuel pump's volume capacity and cause major problems with leaning the engine out.

For instance, say your using a walbro 190lph pump (58gal/hr). At 43 psi it's capable of supplying 39gal/hr, but at 100psi it'll have pressure but will only be capable of forcing less than 1gal/hr through the system.

Ref: Walbro In-tank, high-pressure Fuel Pump Specs


From personal experience dealing with both turbo & supercharger systems I'd recommend sizing up the proper injectors and tuning. Both of which will save you massive headaches and should net more power with way more reliability if you have a good tuner. Low boost (or even higher boost) and high compression isn't in the dark ages anymore, it's more about the tuning and balancing the whole setup to get it all working right. So you get a responsive engine off the boost, and the extra oomph that makes you ...

Matter a fact, on all the jackson racing s/c systems (4-5 that I've dealt with) and a couple turbo kits... the single best thing we did on these for driveability & power was to throw away the FMU and go from the 240cc injectors to 310-330cc. On the FMU they lacked power and did not run right at all. And thats without changing anything on the ecu.

The ecu doesn't care how much power the motor produces, it only looks for the proper a/f and tries to 'trim' (autotune) within the allowable limits of the factory software (up to 20% fuel trim usally). As long as the ecu 'sees' the correct resistance injectors and that it can adapt the stock maps based on the o2 sensor readings it will be fine. Or so we found with up to 10psi on the jackson racing s/c kits.

Granted it wont be perfect, but you'd be suprised sometimes what modern ecu's can cope with. As long as it's not a crazy/excessive setup it can probably be gotten away with. It will just take some driving to get the ecu to 'learn' the engine and alter itself from it's preset factory basemaps.


Once we got into some minor tuning it really opened it up...

Calculators and info aplenty on how to select injectors here:
RC Fuel Injection

IF your looking for 250 crank hp on a mildly boosted setup, you should need injectors around the 500cc mark... IF the following is true:
Desired HP = 250
# of inj. = 4
BSFC = .60
Duty cycle = 80%
Fuel pressure = 43.5

IMO a rising rate FMU is simply a bandaid for a poorly designed fuel system... one that should be torn off and thrown away. 1:1 is where I think it should be, with proper size injectors and tuning. 1:1 keeps the dynamic fuel pressure in relation to air pressure in the intake the same to keep the injectors firing consistently and making it easier to tune, if you go that route. I'm not 100% sure, but there are a lot of OEM fpr's that are 1:1... (I think thats the way it is for most N/A engines - but don't quote me on that )


Also, another thing to consider is that with boost you may want to keep a close eye on the sparkplugs. The more power (ie air/fuel) made, the hotter the combustion chamber gets. So you most likely with a 50+ hp gain will want to go atleast one stage, if not 2 stages colder, depending on your driving style and how heavy your lead foot is.

Andrew

Thanks for your comments
So in simple form
Walbro fuel pump
Bigger injectors >500 cc
Colder spark plugs

Now you believe on 6 psi the standard ECU might be able to cope ?
And what happens to the Factory regulator on the fuel rail ?
Also if i take it in stages can l install the Walbro first without doing anything else ?
Why notjust yse the 3SGTE fuel pump and injectos as the factory turbo makes morethan 6 psi ?


Last ,the amount off boost is that determined by the wheel on the SC .
Does Rotrex do that calculation

Many thanks really appreciate it

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by Lion_HUN

I don't see the point of getting an extra 50 HP out of the BEAMS by turbo/supercharging it. It will be difficult for sure. If you want 250HP you should have a 3. gen 3SGTE. And if you want more, that's a better point to start as well. Couple of guys with MRs in my country use that engine with ~300HP and it goes very good, reliable and quite balanced with hardened suspension and brakes.

You are correct. Im very happy with he engine Im just exploring how to get just a little more
Yes ITB's is also away to go , higher compression etc but thats playing around with the engine itself, which l dont want to do. This SC is very small and the way l see it it will fit nicely where the celica red top has the alternator.
Gee it even has the pully tensioner
This is a long term project. Im wanting to hear advice and peoples thoughts.
This SC givs instant power with no lag and wont interfer with what the Red Top is all about.ts just getting more air into it

[MANDALAY]

pasqual do you have any info on the celica ? What he changed with regards to my comments ? And what gains he had and ultimately reliability

[MANDALAY]

I think i mig