Nitty Gritty... facts only.... redtop vs greytop

[superfreestyle]

has anyone raced a redtop car against a greytop car?? prefferably in the same chassis??

has anyone dynoed a greytop with the redtop exhaust ( no cat.)??

any other usefull comparison information

I want only facts, stone cold facts... no guessing or butt dyno reviews

lets hear what you know

[MANDALAY]

Why do you ask ?
If you want to buy a grey top , go for it. Put the Red Top exhaust , put a LSD 5 speed .
Paint the inlet RED . And wire the ECU properly and you have a RED TOP.
For the nitty gritty look at the reference PHEONIX has composed..
You want it to look exactaly like the red top be prepared to spend 3 times the value of the clip.
Do yourself a favour get a Celica Red Top

[superfreestyle]

this thread has no concern of what I plan on doing to my car... I've read all the reference info... its not in depth enough to say 100% the exhaust is the issue... one would be better off buying the redtop than the grey, you would spend more money buying the greytop and a redtop header, if you can even source one.
obviously none of us here are dumb enough to just buy a sw20 beams clip, the celica engine is a better and easily do-able solution

[superfreestyle]

and i still have yet to read that anyone took the camshafts into consideration... are they the same?? they very well could be, but the very well could not be too...

[PHOENIX]

Originally Posted by superfreestyle

this thread has no concern of what I plan on doing to my car...
obviously none of us here are dumb enough to just buy a sw20 beams clip,

First off, your coming off to rude in your posts. To me your demanding information instead of requesting it. The Beams community is a small community and information is scarce. I've been praised on several occassions about the maturity and non hostile style of our group, and I would like to keep it that way. If you want cold hard facts on something specific, you might not get them because people might not have the chance to take a greytop and redtop (or afford them both for that fact) and compare them.

Second, Mandalay simply asked if you were doing something and you jumped back with what you said above, if you don't want to tell him that's your business, but tell him in a nicer way.

Third, many of our members here have purchased sw20 beams clips. They are not dumb.

4th, the information is out there. If you check the Beams site and compare part numbers of the greytop and redtop cams, you will find that they are the same. So is the headgasket, valves, rods, etc...

You will notice some part numbers that are different too which is beyond me. There is a big possibility that the numbers have changed over the years. I am 99.9% sure that the redtop part numbers are correct. Working closely with a fellow Beams member we have had the chance to double check and confirm with Toyota just about every single part number for the Beams. Trust me, this took forever.

As far as the greytop part numbers, they come out of a Japanese Electronics Parts program and I would guess they are 75% correct. Toyota likes to change part numbers from time to time. Why? Beats me.

I with I could give you more information, but I can't. Simply because I don't know. I would like to think that if one of our I members knew a snippet of information, they would post it and make searchable by other members. I honestly believe that this forum and the site has just about every piece of information in english collected as humanly possible. Is there more information on these engines out there? Yes, we just have to find it, find out for ourselves, or make an educated guess.

- Dave

[MANDALAY]

GEE Superfreestyle i hope you dont think im dumb for buying a MR2 clip.
Well i must be Super dumb for buying every single part BRAND NEW from Toyota SPARE PARTS to build a new engine. Unorthodox maybe.............
But think for a moment. My engine sings and i have confirmed every single part to the benefit for EVERYONE.Now we are even talking nuts and bolts here.
The reason why l asked you was to establish what you wanted to do so as to give you a heads up on the different parts that you do need.
Yes i have the EPC for most of the Toyota's including the RT,GT,BTOP.
The real benefit is unlike USA Toyota dealers here in Australia i can get all the new updated numbers which Toyota likes to change. And best of all i CAN order every single part.
So be proactive if you want to and if you need any help just ask.

[MANDALAY]

Oh l forgot to mention one more thing what made my life so much easier was a member of this forum gave me an actual chassis number of a production MR2 RED TOP
So to be 100% accurate anyone who has a chassis number of a CELICA and a CALDINA please post it.
Thats whats so good here in Australia, our computer system at the local Toyota dealership has EVERY chassis number ! whether it was sold here or not. Gee i can order the freaky red interior that was available on the Canadian cars.
The thing is that the RED TOP and GREY TOP have so many same parts that it easier to mention the ones that are not.

[superfreestyle]

ok so maybe i worded things wrong... gave the wrong impression obviously... I've been reading through these threads for a little while now and all i can find is guesses... there is alot of usefull information and facts but this whole greytop/redtop comparison is very vague... i wont be suprised if someone hasnt been able to compare the two, but id sure like to know if someone did...

no secret to what im doing with my car. redtop it is, unless i can prove that they are the same, and i can find a redtop exhaust manifold and downpipe for a considerably cheaper price than the difference between the greytop and redtop... seems to onle be a few hundred difference from shopping around...

and is it just me or did everyone buy their Beams yesterday?? there were a bunch of them on ebay when i went to work yesterday morning, now there are only like half of them... guess I'll be waiting even longer, at least myh 5s/truck motor is still running perfect and im not without my two

[Servin]

Well I have a Greytop ECU and a Redtop engine. Apparently from testing there is no noticeable difference between the 2. But that is simply with butt dyno results as it very hard to tell 10hp apart. But I will be taking my car to the dyno for a baseline test once its done to confirm that there really isn't a difference in the ECU tuning. If this turns out to be true the we will infact know that the 10hp loss is simply from the headers.

[superfreestyle]

Originally Posted by Servin

Well I have a Greytop ECU and a Redtop engine. Apparently from testing there is no noticeable difference between the 2. But that is simply with butt dyno results as it very hard to tell 10hp apart. But I will be taking my car to the dyno for a baseline test once its done to confirm that there really isn't a difference in the ECU tuning. If this turns out to be true the we will infact know that the 10hp loss is simply from the headers.

awesome... this is the kind of info that we need... there will be alot or variables in this test but lets see what you come up with

[mr220v]

I was the one who ran the ecu's back to back. First redtop MT and then greytop AT. It confirmed 3 things:

1. The greytop and redtop ecu pinouts and sensors are the same

2. There is no major performance difference just from the ecu's

3. Beams automatic tranny ecus can be used in place of manual tranny ecu's without issue, error code, or check engine light.

There was a guy who recently got a swap set with a blown redtop. He replaced with a greytop and hasn't said anything about being slower. Though he only drove the redtop for 40 miles.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by superfreestyle

ok so maybe i worded things wrong... gave the wrong impression obviously... I've been reading through these threads for a little while now and all i can find is guesses... there is alot of usefull information and facts but this whole greytop/redtop comparison is very vague... i wont be suprised if someone hasnt been able to compare the two, but id sure like to know if someone did...

no secret to what im doing with my car. redtop it is, unless i can prove that they are the same, and i can find a redtop exhaust manifold and downpipe for a considerably cheaper price than the difference between the greytop and redtop... seems to onle be a few hundred difference from shopping around...

and is it just me or did everyone buy their Beams yesterday?? there were a bunch of them on ebay when i went to work yesterday morning, now there are only like half of them... guess I'll be waiting even longer, at least myh 5s/truck motor is still running perfect and im not without my two

To find a MR2 Red Top will be hard. But the high priced ones are usually whole clips rear end with everything.
If you want the closest to it, l would go for the Celica one.
A couple of things need to be changed to suit but easily done. If however you want it to look exactly as the MR2 one then it will be dearer.
The Grey top would be my last option as it will need more parts.
BUT the engines are all the same basically except the last 2 are front driven.

PLEASE remember one thing these engines are approaching 10 years old. They will have RUST, salt oxidation , etc.
So there will be items needed to inspect and change.
I paid a lot for my clip and expected the so called low mileage 10,000 miles that the engine would be exceptional. No way in my opinion. If i knew what l know now l could have saved myself 1,000's of dollars.
If your car is running your in a good position to take time , so look carefully and good luck. They are out there

[superfreestyle]

i plan on taking time about it... i have an 85 corolla coupe with a blacktop 20v in it that runs flawlessly and a 97 honda civic with a swap that runs flawlessly as well so this project is no rush AT ALL

[MANDALAY]

Cool.
Damn what is it , l also have a 85 corolla

[superfreestyle]

GTS AE86 + BT 20v = FTW

[mr220v]

^I prefer the beams blacktop for the ae86 I think

[mr2nv]

Originally Posted by superfreestyle

obviously none of us here are dumb enough to just buy a sw20 beams clip, the celica engine is a better and easily do-able solution

Wow, ever heard of the saying...better to keep your mouth shut and appear stupid than to open it and remove all doubt? Don't know how old you are but have you learned about opportunity cost yet? Yes, I'm one of those stupid people who bought a '98 BEAMS clip. Came with TRD 1.5 LSD and Toda lightweight flywheel. Had someone install it and 2 weeks later I had my car back. Some of us don't have the time to devote to tracking down parts, doing the labor and are fortunate enough to be able to afford $5K for a clip with 20K miles.

[mr220v]

I would avoid getting a clip at all costs. At least if it's going to cost 5k+.

This swap can be done with either a celica or caldina motor, and a few additional parts:

-gen3+ bpipe
-gen3 mr2 wateroutlet housing
-aftermarket 1mzfe intake.

The $5000 mr2 rear clip was the main reason I started making harnesses for the beams. At $5000, this swap remains rare and exclusive. At 1000 beams mr2's produced, there just aren't enough to make this a common swap. With an easy/cheap path to swap the more common beams motors, people start using it instead of 3sgte swaps. It may get cheap enough to where people opt for this when their 5sfe goes bad.

Even with the beams clip, you're still not free from wiring. With my harness you are. So in a way, it's easier not to use a clip. Just have to order the right parts up front.

[mr2nv]

Originally Posted by mr220v

Even with the beams clip, you're still not free from wiring. With my harness you are. So in a way, it's easier not to use a clip. Just have to order the right parts up front.

What wiring are you referring to if the clip comes with an uncut harness and gauge cluster?

[mr220v]

Well, if we're talking about a 91 car, there's wiring in the dash harness to use the beams cluster. If you only use wiring to the kickpanel, there's wiring to be done here....that and there are differences further back in the body harnesses as well. If you happened to get a dash harness....well installing a dash harness is not less work.

I've seen cars converted off beams clips. It's not wiring free. I was told the one I saw here locally took the guy months to get running. He was a professional.

This is a swap that can be done all day for under $2000, and can be done in a weekend. The opportunity cost of finding a few gen3+ 3sge components is minimal. Might be as easy as a call to a UK toyota parts supplier.

I'm not trying to criticize anybody who did buy a rear clip (though I will criticize the main guy who sells them). All I'm saying is that there are more cost effective and easier ways now. That's what I'm trying to offer.