Red top turbo on Phonixs power website

[RST]

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....still very much a rarity I guess so thought I'd post it up in case it's of any use (sorry if it's been posted before). Can anyone decipher the text?

Looks quite neat to me though I'm not sure if I can make out any form of intercooling there though I'm told there are folk who don't bother -I would want some form of cooler in there though!

(you'll have to copy and paste the picture URL to see the page -the link just seems to go back to the main home page -or just click on the "3S" link on the main page)

[Roman]

Still using the standard ECU perhaps?

[MANDALAY]

.4Kg/cm isnt that about 5 psi ?

[RST]

.4Kg/cm isnt that about 5 psi ?

I think that's about 5.7psi according to my little .exe engineering converter. That power is about right at the fly for a low pressure bolt on part isn't it? I wonder if the stock MAF is tucked in under the pipe coming from the filter. Just can't quite see enough from the one pic -LoL.

Roman, I think the translators I tried first couldn't handle most of the text -it came out a tad "garbled". That's a bit clearer.

[baktasht]

At 5psi, you don't really NEED an intercooler.

[MANDALAY]

^ Looks like ive done a bit of overkill then, but thats cool. Want to give her the best chance of lasting

I got a feeling its just slapped on with everything stock. Who knows

[RST]

I must admit the post was brought up by someone originally on imoc but I think it has more relavence on here. Early posts on imoc stated they were "common" now () but interest latterally then the usual saying "why change the engine from N/A to F/I".

I thought it might prove intersting to a few members though most are doing stuff well out with my time/skills.

I don't think you mandalay have cut corners at all and have taken a very sensible attitude -including the custom manifolds and pipes which you wanted to look stock .....and err have achieved that so far.

TBH the impression I get is that the beams is capable of low pressure boost -but my tuner never proved that on thje 3SGE (BUGGER). I believe the mk3 guys can run pressure in the order of this with no IC and they work Ok -till they want more and turn up the boost then I'm not sure whether it's curtains or the fat lady singing -and it's all over.

Here's a question though -would you buy a partially built beams FI ready engine or would you even trust one which was supposedley partially built????????????

[puretone]

should I point out that that kit costs the better part of 9000$ ? granted it's with installation fee included, but 9000$??? No intercooler???

Google Translate does an alright job:

Translated version of http://www.phoenixs.co.jp/bigsite/sw20_na/sw20_na.htm



by the way, some of the car-nuts I have spoken to seem to be convinced that because we have a MAF that it's pretty safe to run boosted on OEM ECU, without the need of a piggyback fueler......I have no idea what the logic is behind that but it seems to be the recurring argument that the ECU will keep adjusting for air-density (or air-mass/volume) & air-temperature thru the MAF, past normal atmosphere pressure....I wonder if it's just like running the 5SFE on the stock MAP, and how it stays "safe" (read: not go into limp-mode) below 8psi.

Any suggestions/comments from you geeks?

[MANDALAY]

Yeh i read the price also. Seems expensive. Curious what the kit cost really is to keep in perspective.
Now if we could locate the owner and get some positive answers.
With the help of all you members ive gained a lot of knowledge which is great !
Theory and practice to back it up but the oem ecu , fuel etc might be able to keep up with that boost........... ??

[puretone]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Yeh i read the price also. Seems expensive. Curious what the kit cost really is to keep in perspective.
Now if we could locate the owner and get some positive answers.
With the help of all you members ive gained a lot of knowledge which is great !
Theory and practice to back it up but the oem ecu , fuel etc might be able to keep up with that boost........... ??

I guess the deal with keeping the OEM MAF on OEM ECU is that the MAF does not stop reading the air density/temp/volume as opposed to a OEM MAP sensor from a NA engine. The 5S-FE MAP sensor would freak out at or above anything close to 1.0 psi....so my guess would be that with an FPR installed it would then "read" that there is boost and put the spurs on the fuel pressure and make the injectors spray a bit more.

From what I am reading about MAF & Turbo from other sites/boards is that the MAF needs to be at least 10 times the distance from the turbo inlet as the turbo is wide, so 3" inlet on turbo = place MAF 30" distance from turbo inlet......

edit: BTW MANDALAY, you *might* want to look into that as well with your Rotrex setup, that is *if* you will still use the OEM MAF

[MANDALAY]

Nah going MAP with a air temp sensor on the inlet just befor the throttle body

[Roman]

Originally Posted by puretone

by the way, some of the car-nuts I have spoken to seem to be convinced that because we have a MAF that it's pretty safe to run boosted on OEM ECU, without the need of a piggyback fueler......I have no idea what the logic is behind that but it seems to be the recurring argument that the ECU will keep adjusting for air-density (or air-mass/volume) & air-temperature thru the MAF, past normal atmosphere pressure....I wonder if it's just like running the 5SFE on the stock MAP, and how it stays "safe" (read: not go into limp-mode) below 8psi.

Any suggestions/comments from you geeks?

Well it's pretty well true... But just depends on the upper limits that the standard ECU has a 'map' for.

You need to remember that 'normal' atmospheric pressure isnt always the same. Toyota has to account for all situations, whether driving up a mountain, or when there's a high pressure weather system coming through and you're at sea level.

They'll definitely have 'mapped' the how much fuel is required for X amount of air that is more than 'normal' but it's only speculation to say where that point is, without testing it.

I wouldnt be willing to bet a motor that it can take 10psi, hahaha.

[puretone]

Originally Posted by Roman

Well it's pretty well true... But just depends on the upper limits that the standard ECU has a 'map' for.

You need to remember that 'normal' atmospheric pressure isnt always the same. Toyota has to account for all situations, whether driving up a mountain, or when there's a high pressure weather system coming through and you're at sea level.

They'll definitely have 'mapped' the how much fuel is required for X amount of air that is more than 'normal' but it's only speculation to say where that point is, without testing it.

I wouldnt be willing to bet a motor that it can take 10psi, hahaha.

10psi hahahahaaaaa

Yeah I wonder about that, just how much of a "map" they have for anything above atmosphere, which by the way is officially 1Bar, not 0psi as soooo many boost gauges show.
I wonder how much above sea-level one has to be to be "reading" 4 or 5 psi

[Roman]

The point of a boost gauge is to measure the pressure difference between atmospheric and inside the manifold, so 0psi or -5psi can be correct

As for how far the standard map goes, I'd say it can read up to a specific volume of air.

So what would be say 5psi at 3000rpm = 4.1 volt signal on the AFM

would be the same max if you had say 3psi at 8000rpm and 4.1 volt afm signal.

If you look at the powerfc maps, the standard map has areas mapped out that you would NEVER reach, like near maximum airflow meter voltages at 1500rpm. Would never get there unless you had a crap load of boost, haha.

[RST]

...I think you guys are talking about (say for example) xBarabs and xBarg -which stands for absolute pressure (including atmospheric) and gauge pressure (above atmospheric) respectively.

Must admit I usually never deal with abs pressure normally untill I came across MAP in car set-ups -I work with hydraulics mainly up to 400Barg (or about 401Barabs at MSWL) most of the time so I never really thought about influences of atmospheric pressure much before. Car stuf it teeny tiny pressures but the effect is huge in comparison I guess. LoL

[puretone]

1 bar = 14.5037738 pounds per square inch, thank you google giggity googly goo



Now the "boost" gauges are at 0.0 psi and/or 0.0 Bar even with the engine off....this is wrong because we live at a 1.0 Bar "atmosphere" at sea level no? So these dang gauges are actually off because it should all be added with one atmosphere.


The atmosphere is the entire mass of air that surrounds the earth. While it extends upward for about 500 miles, the section of primary interest is the portion that rests on the earth’s surface and extends upward for about 7 1/2 miles. This layer is called the troposphere. If a column of air 1-inch square extending all the way to the “top” of the atmosphere could be weighed, this column of air would weigh approximately 14.7 pounds at sea level. Thus, atmospheric pressure at sea level is approximately 14.7 psi

[Roman]

Originally Posted by puretone

Now the "boost" gauges are at 0.0 psi and/or 0.0 Bar even with the engine off....this is wrong because we live at a 1.0 Bar "atmosphere" at sea level no? So these dang gauges are actually off because it should all be added with one atmosphere.

Yeah that's what I mean, the exact purpose is to measure *the difference* in pressure, not the overall pressure.

And although atmospheric pressure is *approximately* 14.7 PSI, it changes depending on altitude, whether there's a high or a low pressure system moving through, etc!

What's the difference between 14.5psi absolute atmospheric pressure, and 20.5 pounts of absolute pressure in the manifold?

6psi difference, so it is shown as 6psi on your gauge.

When the motor is off, and the absolute atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi, and the absolute pressure inside the manifold is also 14.7psi, what is the difference between the two figures?

0.00 psi, which is what the gauge reads.

[Roman]

Originally Posted by RST

...I think you guys are talking about (say for example) xBarabs and xBarg -which stands for absolute pressure (including atmospheric) and gauge pressure (above atmospheric) respectively.

Yep, there's no point in measuring below atmospheric pressure IMO in a 'boost' gauge, because you're mostly wanting to know peak boost pressure and also when boost starts being generated, and how modifications affect either of these. (I guess?)

Having the scale of measurement in 'absolute' would mean half of the scale of your gauge is taken up by something that isnt useful, and you'd have more margin of error for the remainder.

P.S. Are you a hydraulics engineer or something RST?

[puretone]

Originally Posted by Roman

Yeah that's what I mean, the exact purpose is to measure *the difference* in pressure, not the overall pressure.

And although atmospheric pressure is *approximately* 14.7 PSI, it changes depending on altitude, whether there's a high or a low pressure system moving through, etc!

What's the difference between 14.5psi absolute atmospheric pressure, and 20.5 pounts of absolute pressure in the manifold?

6psi difference, so it is shown as 6psi on your gauge.

When the motor is off, and the absolute atmospheric pressure is 14.7psi, and the absolute pressure inside the manifold is also 14.7psi, what is the difference between the two figures?

0.00 psi, which is what the gauge reads.

I wonder about that though, wouldn't 6psi boost at high altitude be more dangerous than 6psi at sea level? Since it's 6psi + whatever extra it is because of altitude, hence my grief with those gauges that measure the difference....and my preferring to have a gauge that would display the "real" pressure

Bar (abs) & Bar (g) also appears in fluid dynamics, got that in mechanical & chemical engineering major (s) at the Uni.....Hydro engineers should damn know this like back of their hands!

[RST]

I'm not sure it would be, the higher you go the less dense air is. Isn't it the weight of air in the cylinders that affects the fuelling? Potentially a turbo would spool quicker with less dense air though. But you're talking really high. I know the tubby guys say they get better boost here during winter though which makes an awful lot of sense. You're balancing the molecules of fuel vs the molecules of oxygen in the cylinder at the end of the day to get the perfect burn.

One thing -I was asking my mapper last time how he knew what fuel the injectors should give and how it related to RPM and throttle butterfly position in particular. Wasn't sure with a new ECU where he had to start from. I seem to remember him saying that you set the throttle position and measure it, measure the air going in by whatever method then the fuelling is taken care of by a PID loop in the ECU which stops things going wild when you keep the same throttle position -the feedback being given by the lanbda sensor I guess. Can't remember now as it was a while back. I think he said though going MAP sensor has the advantage in that scenario but I might be wrong.

...afraid so Roman, an Naval Architect by training and been doing Hydraulics for the last 3 years (just finishing a 500kW hydraulic power plant installation now). I sucked at fluid dynamics at uni -too much theory and not enough common sense but I'm OK with it now -but cars and MAP are something I'm very slowly figuring out because the differences are tiny. I think I can probably fart more than 6 psi after a good indian meal if I cared to measure it. I maybe shouldn't comment but I'm kind of keen to learn if you know what I mean so excuse my dumb ass questions.