Beams Swap - Idle Issue - Page 2

mr220v · 10-22-2009, 10:56 AM

The beams 3sge ecu has the old fashioned diagnostic code capability. Just jumper Tc and e1 on the diagnostic connector, and count the blinks of the check engine light.

It also has provisions for an obd2 port. The only problem is that it's meant for a jdm scanner.

puretone · 10-22-2009, 05:05 PM

I had a similar issue when I KILLED my MAF (without realizing it). Major up/down surge on the idle.....went to Toyota dealer to compare Ohm resistance on a new & my old MAF. I must have burned a wire somewhere.
Cleaning with CRC MAF cleaner will do the trick, if you do it right away when you suspect your MAF got dirty.
You *can* use an aftermarket suction pipe that holds the OEM MAF in place, now do realize that they are eBay quality sometimes....
Running with no air filter will change the A/F Ratio as well, in short if you run an aftermarket filter you will have differences in A/F Ratios, tuning & FPR would be a great idea.

turnip · 10-22-2009, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puretone

I had a similar issue when I KILLED my MAF (without realizing it). Major up/down surge on the idle.....went to Toyota dealer to compare Ohm resistance on a new & my old MAF. I must have burned a wire somewhere.
Cleaning with CRC MAF cleaner will do the trick, if you do it right away when you suspect your MAF got dirty.
You *can* use an aftermarket suction pipe that holds the OEM MAF in place, now do realize that they are eBay quality sometimes....
Running with no air filter will change the A/F Ratio as well, in short if you run an aftermarket filter you will have differences in A/F Ratios, tuning & FPR would be a great idea.

Everytime I run it gets better. See video I took tonight. RedtopIdle 1 and 2.

YouTube - DrunkRadish

turnip · 10-24-2009, 12:17 AM

Is anyone else not running an 02 sensor on there Beams? Mine did not come with the bpipe so i dont have one. I am beginning to think my high idle is from the fact that the ECU does not know whether its running lean or rich and is likely staying in open loop. Can anyone confirm this?

MANDALAY · 10-24-2009, 05:05 AM

No O2 sensor ????????????
I wouldnt do that

turnip · 10-24-2009, 07:47 AM

After reading about o2 sensors its not required because when the vehicle is under heavy load the ecu goes to open loop vs closed. Closed is for light driving/idling to maximize efficency and carbon emission. Very good write up on how it all works Oxygen sensor. Plus since I am running Cam 2 it would just kill the o2 sensor anyways as its leaded fuel. I love learning about this stuff. Im a trader by day.

puretone · 10-24-2009, 08:34 PM

Get the goddamned O2 sensor dude, what's wrong with you? It will run like total crap & bog down, the fueling is all messed up without it. Yes it will run (though it shouldn't) but you'll be burning gas like no other & be pretty much missing out of the wonderful punch that the RedTop has....stop messing with the MAF then too, it's probably fine & the true culprit being the O2 sensor missing...

turnip · 10-24-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puretone

Get the goddamned O2 sensor dude, what's wrong with you? It will run like total crap & bog down, the fueling is all messed up without it. Yes it will run (though it shouldn't) but you'll be burning gas like no other & be pretty much missing out of the wonderful punch that the RedTop has....stop messing with the MAF then too, it's probably fine & the true culprit being the O2 sensor missing...

No need for the hostility. This is being prepped for dirt circle track racing. I am running race gas and it will never be used on the road. Plus the race gas will destroy the o2 anyways. Thought I mentioned that above. The car when ran with execption to sitting in staging will be WOT in second gear most likely so it will always be in open loop. I agree with you if a street daily driven car. Its being completely gutted down to the shell and cage is going in shortly. By the end of the season the car will look like it was in a demo derby. Thats why I am trying to locate another celica and beams to have on standby when this car gets destroyed and it will. But in the interim it will be some of the best racing. Upgrading from my Neon to this its gonna be nice.

MANDALAY · 10-24-2009, 11:44 PM

To much gas and you will be washing your pistons. That wont be good for lubrication.
Must say i have never seen a car run with no O2 sensor UBLESS it had a stand alone.
If your using the OEM ECU your in for trouble very quickly.
Most of the guys here having troubles ARE BECAUSE they have deviated away from the stock configuration. ( which you have do so also ).

turnip · 10-25-2009, 09:28 AM

Typically when an o2 sensor goes bad or is not present the vehicle will run rich and that is not a bad thing when racing. If I have any issues it will come from my engine being used and showing indiciations that the previous owner ran the hell out of it. Compression could be better on cylinder 1 and 2 coming in at 165. But in the essence of due dilligence and I am gonna double check with my buddies that build nothing but insane horsepowers IS300s to confirm my belief on the toyota stock ecu. I have all winter to hammer out this issue. THe races I run usually cover 6-7 miles and take 10-12 minutes. During that time its WOT and depending on the track and restarts the car will almost always be in second.

MANDALAY · 10-25-2009, 09:37 AM

I guess we have turned a full circle.No O2 sensor bad idle , dont know how anyone is going to he;p you. Your car your engine ild have to say good luck with her. Im sure the previous owner had the O2 sensor and any damage will be your own doing low compression or not.

turnip · 10-25-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

I guess we have turned a full circle.No O2 sensor bad idle , dont know how anyone is going to he;p you. Your car your engine ild have to say good luck with her. Im sure the previous owner had the O2 sensor and any damage will be your own doing low compression or not.

We solved the idle surging issue a few days ago and this thread was helpful. It just idles a little high now which I am okay with since I now know why.

I am fully aware that I will at some point going to ruin this engine and I am okay with that. As for having issues with it running from not having an o2 sensor we will find out but I suspect all will be good based on my research.

Running race gas and lessening the chance of detonation and pre ignition from lean conditions is more important to me than a smooth idle.

Roman · 10-25-2009, 06:50 PM

The thing is though, when the ECU sees that one of the sensors is missing, it goes into a fail safe or limp mode, in which it retards ignition, runs a little richer, etc.

Even when it's running at WOT, it's still going to know that something is wrong, ie one of the main important sensors for the motor is missing, and you'll most likely have dissapointing performance.

Some of the guys here have been down on power, on account of the speedo signal not being hooked up, and that's an incredibly minor signal to have, compared to oxy sensor.

But you still might be sweet, let us know how you go.

Post some pics up of your motor etc some time if you can!

turnip · 10-25-2009, 08:33 PM

I agree that the ECU will act in default mode if it does not sense a key sensor. In this situation from what I have read it stays in open loop and runs the default fuel maps and timing. Typically you see the ecu go into limp mode on detonation and or if it senses knock. This happened once or twice on my turbo IS300 which had a similar setup to this Beams in that is was a single VVTI.

Now I believe you are correct in that I will not gain the maximum potential of this setup based on the ECU not being able to learn and trim the maps accordingly. Based on a couple runs I made up the road today its definitely not in limp mode or retarding timing. It sounded and felt good. I plan on having it dynoed shortly.

mr220v · 10-26-2009, 02:16 PM

The ecu does not go into "limp mode" for lacking an o2 sensor. No o2 will cost you about 5mpg. Your CEL won't even come on. Just a stored code.

You will run rich, but probably not enough to cause issues with cylinder lubrication.

You will have a hard time passing emissions however. The 4age 20v can pass without the o2, a 3sge won't.

Running without an o2 is not the end of the world.

Lion_HUN · 11-02-2009, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turnip

I am fully aware that I will at some point going to ruin this engine and I am okay with that.

I'm not okay with that!!! Leave that poor engine alone and ruin something else!!

I'm sorry but I couldn't see this without a word

In this community everyone takes care about their engine as if it were their child.

puretone · 11-03-2009, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turnip

I agree that the ECU will act in default mode if it does not sense a key sensor. In this situation from what I have read it stays in open loop and runs the default fuel maps and timing. Typically you see the ecu go into limp mode on detonation and or if it senses knock. This happened once or twice on my turbo IS300 which had a similar setup to this Beams in that is was a single VVTI.

Now I believe you are correct in that I will not gain the maximum potential of this setup based on the ECU not being able to learn and trim the maps accordingly. Based on a couple runs I made up the road today its definitely not in limp mode or retarding timing. It sounded and felt good. I plan on having it dynoed shortly.

I'M HOSTILE BASTARD WATCH ME JIHAD BEAMS!!1!'

kidding, my ADHD is faaaarrrr to all encompassing to read thru entire posts just because, oh whats that.....fly, shoooo fly....where was I? Huh? Oh.
Race gas yeah, kill O2 true. Dunno, I suppose going in "limp-mode" (honda-speak, eeewwww) from no O2-Sensor might also piss on your load/air-fuel & not wanna WOT no more in 2nd....safety thing I guess.

mr220v · 11-03-2009, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puretone

Dunno, I suppose going in "limp-mode" (honda-speak, eeewwww)

People use the term "limp-mode" like it's "safe-mode" for a computer. The ecu's reaction is different for any given missing sensor. In the case of the o2, the reaction is 3-5mpg worse fuel economy. If it were a knock sensor, it would be permanently retarded timing. A missing coolant temp sensor results in rich running (depending on temp) and VERY hard starting below 60 degrees.

In the case of the o2 sensor, a little extra carbon would be the main ill effect over time. It won't run so rich that it affects lubrication. It might mess up a catalytic converter over time.

turnip · 11-03-2009, 12:56 PM

Appreciate the info. No cat just a straight pipe and depending on what track I might have a removable glasspack on the car.

Going to dyno in the next couple weeks and that should let me know what I am looking at for a/f at WOT. Also curious about what the ligher flywheel, lighter crank pulley, lack of power steering and AC is gonna do for the at the wheel numbers.

10-25-2009, 08:33 PM	#34 (permalink)
turnip No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I agree that the ECU will act in default mode if it does not sense a key sensor. In this situation from what I have read it stays in open loop and runs the default fuel maps and timing. Typically you see the ecu go into limp mode on detonation and or if it senses knock. This happened once or twice on my turbo IS300 which had a similar setup to this Beams in that is was a single VVTI. Now I believe you are correct in that I will not gain the maximum potential of this setup based on the ECU not being able to learn and trim the maps accordingly. Based on a couple runs I made up the road today its definitely not in limp mode or retarding timing. It sounded and felt good. I plan on having it dynoed shortly. Last edited by turnip; 10-25-2009 at 08:47 PM.

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10-22-2009, 10:56 AM	#21 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,791 Thanks: 13 Thanked 139 Times in 117 Posts iTrader Rating: (8/100% )	The beams 3sge ecu has the old fashioned diagnostic code capability. Just jumper Tc and e1 on the diagnostic connector, and count the blinks of the check engine light. It also has provisions for an obd2 port. The only problem is that it's meant for a jdm scanner.

10-22-2009, 05:05 PM	#22 (permalink)
puretone Beams Owners Group Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aruba, #1 BEAMS Engine on the Island Posts: 1,352 Thanks: 24 Thanked 46 Times in 45 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I had a similar issue when I KILLED my MAF (without realizing it). Major up/down surge on the idle.....went to Toyota dealer to compare Ohm resistance on a new & my old MAF. I must have burned a wire somewhere. Cleaning with CRC MAF cleaner will do the trick, if you do it right away when you suspect your MAF got dirty. You can use an aftermarket suction pipe that holds the OEM MAF in place, now do realize that they are eBay quality sometimes.... Running with no air filter will change the A/F Ratio as well, in short if you run an aftermarket filter you will have differences in A/F Ratios, tuning & FPR would be a great idea.

10-24-2009, 12:17 AM	#24 (permalink)
turnip No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Is anyone else not running an 02 sensor on there Beams? Mine did not come with the bpipe so i dont have one. I am beginning to think my high idle is from the fact that the ECU does not know whether its running lean or rich and is likely staying in open loop. Can anyone confirm this?

10-24-2009, 05:05 AM	#25 (permalink)
MANDALAY Beams Owners Group Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: victoria AUSTRALIA Posts: 1,830 Thanks: 88 Thanked 64 Times in 60 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	No O2 sensor ???????????? I wouldnt do that

10-24-2009, 07:47 AM	#26 (permalink)
turnip No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	After reading about o2 sensors its not required because when the vehicle is under heavy load the ecu goes to open loop vs closed. Closed is for light driving/idling to maximize efficency and carbon emission. Very good write up on how it all works Oxygen sensor. Plus since I am running Cam 2 it would just kill the o2 sensor anyways as its leaded fuel. I love learning about this stuff. Im a trader by day.

10-24-2009, 08:34 PM	#27 (permalink)
puretone Beams Owners Group Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Aruba, #1 BEAMS Engine on the Island Posts: 1,352 Thanks: 24 Thanked 46 Times in 45 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Get the goddamned O2 sensor dude, what's wrong with you? It will run like total crap & bog down, the fueling is all messed up without it. Yes it will run (though it shouldn't) but you'll be burning gas like no other & be pretty much missing out of the wonderful punch that the RedTop has....stop messing with the MAF then too, it's probably fine & the true culprit being the O2 sensor missing...

10-24-2009, 11:44 PM	#29 (permalink)
MANDALAY Beams Owners Group Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: victoria AUSTRALIA Posts: 1,830 Thanks: 88 Thanked 64 Times in 60 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	To much gas and you will be washing your pistons. That wont be good for lubrication. Must say i have never seen a car run with no O2 sensor UBLESS it had a stand alone. If your using the OEM ECU your in for trouble very quickly. Most of the guys here having troubles ARE BECAUSE they have deviated away from the stock configuration. ( which you have do so also ).

10-25-2009, 09:28 AM	#30 (permalink)
turnip No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Typically when an o2 sensor goes bad or is not present the vehicle will run rich and that is not a bad thing when racing. If I have any issues it will come from my engine being used and showing indiciations that the previous owner ran the hell out of it. Compression could be better on cylinder 1 and 2 coming in at 165. But in the essence of due dilligence and I am gonna double check with my buddies that build nothing but insane horsepowers IS300s to confirm my belief on the toyota stock ecu. I have all winter to hammer out this issue. THe races I run usually cover 6-7 miles and take 10-12 minutes. During that time its WOT and depending on the track and restarts the car will almost always be in second.

10-25-2009, 09:37 AM	#31 (permalink)
MANDALAY Beams Owners Group Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: victoria AUSTRALIA Posts: 1,830 Thanks: 88 Thanked 64 Times in 60 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	I guess we have turned a full circle.No O2 sensor bad idle , dont know how anyone is going to he;p you. Your car your engine ild have to say good luck with her. Im sure the previous owner had the O2 sensor and any damage will be your own doing low compression or not.

10-25-2009, 06:50 PM	#33 (permalink)
Roman Beams OCD Support Group Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Auckland, NZ Posts: 711 Thanks: 23 Thanked 49 Times in 30 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	The thing is though, when the ECU sees that one of the sensors is missing, it goes into a fail safe or limp mode, in which it retards ignition, runs a little richer, etc. Even when it's running at WOT, it's still going to know that something is wrong, ie one of the main important sensors for the motor is missing, and you'll most likely have dissapointing performance. Some of the guys here have been down on power, on account of the speedo signal not being hooked up, and that's an incredibly minor signal to have, compared to oxy sensor. But you still might be sweet, let us know how you go. Post some pics up of your motor etc some time if you can!

10-26-2009, 02:16 PM	#35 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,791 Thanks: 13 Thanked 139 Times in 117 Posts iTrader Rating: (8/100% )	The ecu does not go into "limp mode" for lacking an o2 sensor. No o2 will cost you about 5mpg. Your CEL won't even come on. Just a stored code. You will run rich, but probably not enough to cause issues with cylinder lubrication. You will have a hard time passing emissions however. The 4age 20v can pass without the o2, a 3sge won't. Running without an o2 is not the end of the world.

11-03-2009, 12:56 PM	#39 (permalink)
turnip No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 23 Thanks: 1 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Appreciate the info. No cat just a straight pipe and depending on what track I might have a removable glasspack on the car. Going to dyno in the next couple weeks and that should let me know what I am looking at for a/f at WOT. Also curious about what the ligher flywheel, lighter crank pulley, lack of power steering and AC is gonna do for the at the wheel numbers.