Redtop 3S rebuild pics.

[Roman]

Well I did a quick search for beams related engines on this board.
Found some good info, thanks heaps to Pheonix for the great info re: part numbers etc, awesome.

Some of you may know me from whoring various other forums.

I've got two redtop engines now, one is rather standard, and from a celica.
It's got 30,000kms on it, and I picked it up for about $750 USD, with loom, ecu, sensors, etc.
Completely stock standard, in great condition. (This hasnt arrived yet... But I have purchased it)

My other engine has a little more history I suppose.
It's a redtop 3S from a 1998 SW20.
I bought it damaged, it had blown a piston from leaning out too much, combined with some high RPM action I would imagine. As it was running an HKs fuel computer at the time. (Pic of blown piston below!)
So I've rebuilt it, with new factory pistons, rings, gaskets, belts, etc,
It's had a port and polished head;
I got the bottom end balanced;
TOMs extractors;
HKS intake pipe with Apexi pod filter on the end.

So this one has had a bit more spent on it, it owes me about $4k USD I suppose.

I've also got the gen 5 helical LSD gearbox, with a cusco cromoly flywheel and cusco 3 puck clutch/cover plate.

I'm putting this into a gen 1 hard top SW20, 'G' spec.
Which is quite light, approx. 1050kgs.

At the moment I'm pulling my 'grunty' one out, and putting the 'standard' one in instead. The grunty one is going to go back on the engine stand, and might get a few more goodies while it's there. (Which might be for a while)
I think having the ported head + balanced bottom end is not going to do much good without some cams and an increased rev limit, so I will investigate this while I have it out of the car over the next while.
It looks like a cam grind and a brashboy powerFC are the best ways to go about this, unless it is possible to get the Altezza powerFC working with it instead. (As it is about half the price! Redtop PFC is a modified Altezza one)

I got my motor installed, however I never got it going.
The cam timing was set up incorrectly, and had to pull the motor out to fix it. (Was backfiring out the intake... And it's impossible to even get the cam belt cover off the engine while it's in the car, as it's hard up against the strut tower!)
I've yet to find anyone that actually knows how to set up the timing properly, including a mechanic at toyota. It doesnt have the usual markings etc. to set it up. I thought I had it right originally, however I was obviously wrong.
I'm picking up my other engine from a friends workshop this week, and it will hopefully be in and running this weekend.

But I digress!
There seems to be a few people interested in this engine, as it isnt all that common I suppose, so I thought I'd post a few pics of the one that I rebuilt.

I havent been able to enjoy the fruits of my labour yet, actually my MR2 has been off the road since about December.
So it will be exciting to finally get it all up and running.

Anyway.
here are some pics.

[ween191]

please tell me how you found one for $750 USD! if i remember correctly, i think PHOENIX got one for a little under that or something (but hes "over there" so that makes sense).

[Roman]

Well I live in New Zealand, and the majority of our vehicle fleet are Japanese imports.

(There are a small amount of NZ new MR2s... however 99.9% are japanese)

Redtop engines are still hard to come across here however!
There are only 8 gen 5 NA SW20s in the country, and 3 turbo.
I'm not sure about the number of celicas, but only a handful as well.
So the amount of redtop engines here is still very small.
One good thing however, is there seems to be quite a few Caldina GT's around lately.
They came with the 190hp 'greytop' engine, which is basically a redtop with a repainted intake manifold and rocker cover cover.
They were only 190hp as opposed to 200, as they were all autos. (Auto redtop was 190hp)

I was very lucky to get that other engine, and at that price!
A friend of mine is building a drag car KP starlet, which was going to run in the NA class.
They were looking for a 4 cyl toyota motor, and came across a crashed beams celica in a wreckers.
So they bought the motor for their project.
They were talking of eventually turboing the redtop, but I convinced them otherwise.
I told them that it would be a waste of time, more expensive than buying a 3sgte, for less power.
So I made them a cash offer on the engine, which they accepted.
So they're putting a 3sgte in there now, they're not going to bother keeping it NA to start with.
So I was pretty happy with that!

The weather here is pretty miserable at the moment, but I'm hoping that it will clear up a bit over the weekend, so I can get my engine in.
(I dont have a garage to work in unfortunately! as it is taken up by my brothers project car)

but yeah, it's coming along slowly.

[PHOENIX]

Originally Posted by Roman

Found some good info, thanks heaps to Pheonix for the great info re: part numbers etc, awesome.

No problem, anything i can do to help, let me know. Roman, i would like your help for a little project im doing and id like to ask you to be partners with it. Basically, all i need is information for a website coming soon (www.beams-redtop.com )

Originally Posted by Roman

I bought it damaged, it had blown a piston from leaning out too much, combined with some high RPM action I would imagine. As it was running an HKs fuel computer at the time. (Pic of blown piston below!)

What, i dont see a problem

Originally Posted by Roman

TOMs extractors

Man, this statement kept confusing the hell out of me. For those of you that dont know.....Extractors = Exhaust manifold

Originally Posted by Roman

I've also got the gen 5 helical LSD gearbox

Im looking for one of these, my setup didnt come with it. If you happen to stumble across one, let me know

Originally Posted by roman

I think having the ported head + balanced bottom end is not going to do much good without some cams and an increased rev limit, so I will investigate this while I have it out of the car over the next while.

Im currently working with a fellow board member in canada (canada is the ******* of the world BTW) about getting some Billet Cams made up for us. TRD a few years ago made an aftermarket cam that is VVT-I enabled so we wouldnt lose that. Unfortunatly finding one new or even used is impossible. So im researching the durations and lift of the TRD cams and will pick one to have made into billets. Luckily, the only cam we really need in VVT-I is the intake cam. Ill keep you posted on how that goes.

Originally Posted by Roman

The cam timing was set up incorrectly, and had to pull the motor out to fix it. (Was backfiring out the intake... And it's impossible to even get the cam belt cover off the engine while it's in the car, as it's hard up against the strut tower!)
I've yet to find anyone that actually knows how to set up the timing properly, including a mechanic at toyota. It doesnt have the usual markings etc. to set it up. I thought I had it right originally, however I was obviously wrong.

My Engine was running perfectly before he pulled it, if you would like, i can take pictures of the cams and cam gears and where they are set for you to copy. I actually havnt had a chance to check and see if the timing belt is still on so ill check tonight.

[PHOENIX]

I was able to pick up my engine sunday, didnt get to lost, but i made it on time. I am definatly feeling the joy you probably had when you received your Beams

Hey, do you know of a Toyota Beams Manual in English? Im considering purchasing a japanese Beams BGB and sending it this service they have here to have it translated into English, Atleast the important pages like Timing and Torque Specs. Its like $10 bucks a page so that will be $100 bucks just to have translated. Hell, i might have one of my mechanics do it for half that, ill check. But if i do, ill gladly share that info with you.

[Roman]

If you did, that would be awesome!

I would gladly split the costs with you, if you were to do that.

IIRC there's a manual for a rav 4 with the greytop 3S, that is in english.

However I cant confirm that for sure.

BTW great to hear about your engine.

There's a tranny in the pic with your motor, wasnt it included?

[PHOENIX]

Originally Posted by Roman

There's a tranny in the pic with your motor, wasnt it included?

No, and i knew that before i bought it. He sold it for $350 before i could get my hands on it. I would of gladly paid that price for it.

[Raptor13x]

Damn, nice work on that piston, lol.

[PHOENIX]

Originally Posted by Roman

IIRC there's a manual for a rav 4 with the greytop 3S, that is in english.

whats the difference between the redtop and the greytop?

[canadam]

I thought the Rav4 3S was an FE ?

[Roman]

Originally Posted by PHOENIX

No problem, anything i can do to help, let me know. Roman, i would like your help for a little project im doing and id like to ask you to be partners with it. Basically, all i need is information for a website coming soon (www.beams-redtop.com )

That sounds great phoenix, I have plenty of info etc. that I can contribute.
Get in touch, if you have MSN you can get me on beams3sge@hotmail.com.

*pic of piston* What, i dont see a problem

Haha, yes that piston is very munched indeed.
Part of the ringland blew up into the cylinder, and rattled around in there for a while.
The head was slightly damaged too, but has now been repaired.

Man, this statement kept confusing the hell out of me. For those of you that dont know.....Extractors = Exhaust manifold

Woops! err, sorry about that. It's just what we call them here.
Exhaust manifold, headers, extractors, the out pipes. :P

Im looking for one of these, my setup didnt come with it. If you happen to stumble across one, let me know

IIRC, 'lander' had one of these gearboxes for sale, however I am unsure if he still does.

Im currently working with a fellow board member in canada (canada is the ******* of the world BTW) about getting some Billet Cams made up for us. TRD a few years ago made an aftermarket cam that is VVT-I enabled so we wouldnt lose that. Unfortunatly finding one new or even used is impossible. So im researching the durations and lift of the TRD cams and will pick one to have made into billets. Luckily, the only cam we really need in VVT-I is the intake cam. Ill keep you posted on how that goes.

There is a big swag of TRD parts out there for the Altezza engine, however unfortunatly the cams will not work in the redtop.
At the end of the camshaft on the redtop, is the crank angle sensor 'fins' that pass a hall effect sensor, to work out the cam position.
However on the Altezza, there is the same thing, but there is another cam cap at the very end of the engine, past the sensor.
The redtop head has the castings for this extra cap, so it could be possible to machine the head to make it suitable for the Altezza cams.
Or alternatively, machine off the end of the camshaft, so it doesnt have the end cap any more.

Or alternatively again, you could get the standard cams ground, and reshim all of the valves to suit. Which is what I am thinking might be the best thing to do.

One thing that you'll have to worry about, is turning the VVTI engine into an interference head... you need to make a locking mechanism, so that the cam doesnt retard itself far enough to munch the pistons.

My Engine was running perfectly before he pulled it, if you would like, i can take pictures of the cams and cam gears and where they are set for you to copy. I actually havnt had a chance to check and see if the timing belt is still on so ill check tonight.

Nah thats okay, my other redtop is the same.
It hasnt had the cambelt off since it was running, so it undoubtably is still set correctly. From this, I will be able to ascertain the correct timing.

[Roman]

Originally Posted by PHOENIX

whats the difference between the redtop and the greytop?

The greytop is exactly the same as an automatic redtop. (190hp, max torque at 4400rpm instead of 6000)
Except it doesnt have the purdy intake manifold or rocker cover cover. :P
However it came in the Caldina GT, G limited Rav4 (for a short time), and one or two other vehicles IIRC.

They only came out from 2002 onwards however.

So greytops are actually fairly common, well relative to the redtop at least.

[Roman]

This afternoon when I got out of bed, (whiskey is NOT your friend) I made a phone call, and had my celica 3SGE dropped off, as arranged.
Which is impeccable condition. 8)
30,000kms old, from an ST202 front cut.

I can see why no sane person would want to try and mount a FWD engine in an MR2, a few things are quite a bit different. :? Mainly to do with coolant lines etc however.

So the fuel rail, coolant lines, flywheel, clutch, Rocker cover cover, Intake manifold, water pump lines, front pulley, extractors, coolant neck, alternator + bracket, and RHS engine mount got swapped over from the MR2 engine. I didnt need to swap the intake manifold and rocker cover cover, but the badges are the wrong way up on the celica ones. :P

This is the celica motor:


MR2 motor: (Note that the oil pump pulley looks different? weird!)


Celica engine with MR2 bits on:


One interesting thing that I noticed, is that the celica front pulley has two different sized pulleys on it... It would seem that the celica runs something at about half speed compared to the other... Perhaps the MR2 spins the alternator faster than the celica, to compensate for the extra load from the EHPS?

Hopefully if the weather holds out, and I can get someone to help, I will be able to get the motor mounted in the car tomorrow.
Practice really does make perfect! I can get the motor in/out in only a few hours, and mostly by myself now... Just need help getting the left and right mounts in.
whereas the first time we put it in, it took pretty much all day, and there was about four of us.
Although having four of you + beers is probably not the most efficient way to do a two man job.

[canadam]

Good info, thanks man!

[kanazai2001]

Originally Posted by Roman

This afternoon when I got out of bed, (whiskey is NOT your friend) I made a phone call, and had my celica 3SGE dropped off, as arranged.
Which is impeccable condition. 8)
30,000kms old, from an ST202 front cut.

I can see why no sane person would want to try and mount a FWD engine in an MR2, a few things are quite a bit different. :? Mainly to do with coolant lines etc however.

So the fuel rail, coolant lines, flywheel, clutch, Rocker cover cover, Intake manifold, water pump lines, front pulley, extractors, coolant neck, alternator + bracket, and RHS engine mount got swapped over from the MR2 engine. I didnt need to swap the intake manifold and rocker cover cover, but the badges are the wrong way up on the celica ones. :P

This is the celica motor:


MR2 motor: (Note that the oil pump pulley looks different? weird!)


Celica engine with MR2 bits on:


One interesting thing that I noticed, is that the celica front pulley has two different sized pulleys on it... It would seem that the celica runs something at about half speed compared to the other... Perhaps the MR2 spins the alternator faster than the celica, to compensate for the extra load from the EHPS?

Hopefully if the weather holds out, and I can get someone to help, I will be able to get the motor mounted in the car tomorrow.
Practice really does make perfect! I can get the motor in/out in only a few hours, and mostly by myself now... Just need help getting the left and right mounts in.
whereas the first time we put it in, it took pretty much all day, and there was about four of us.
Although having four of you + beers is probably not the most efficient way to do a two man job.

the bottom end especially the oil sump looks like 3SGTE's
anyone know is it interchangable?

[PHOENIX]

the oil pump or the whole block?

[kanazai2001]

Originally Posted by PHOENIX

the oil pump or the whole block?

what ever below the bear engine block especially the oil sump...

[Roman]

Yep I havent compared them side by side, but the gen 3 oil pan etc is very similar to the gen 4, I wouldnt be surprised if they were exactly the same.

Obviously the turbo engine will have an oil return leading back to the sump though, that the NA doesnt have.

[kanazai2001]

Originally Posted by Roman

Yep I havent compared them side by side, but the gen 3 oil pan etc is very similar to the gen 4, I wouldnt be surprised if they were exactly the same.

Obviously the turbo engine will have an oil return leading back to the sump though, that the NA doesnt have.

hi... rom...
i found the ST205 oil sump pix from toymods.net...
it looks like the RED beams'...
can u confirm it?!

here is the link...
and the pix...











thanks...

[kanazai2001]

Questions Questions n Questions...

oil sump...
so anyone can tell me what is the different between the ST205 oil sump and RED BEAMS'? just the extra oil outlet beside the oil filter? the oil filters r different... r the oil filter socket interchangable?! how bout the oil pump?

block...
anyone have the pix of the black top n the red top block?!? can anyone pin point where r those extra oil feeder holes compare with standard 3SG?!

internal...
r the inlet cam the same for the black top n red top? obviously the exhaust cams for these 2 r different... how bout the pistons, cranks, rods, etc?!