All about piggybacks!

Weasy2k · 01-13-2006, 03:34 AM

Start: Debate

Well its been a while since i added something here and been meaning to write this up.

So hear goes:

Definition:
Piggybacks "black box's" are units that work along side the stock ecu rather then eliminate it all together. They intercept/modify signals from your engine sensors that go to the ecu (or vice versa) and modify them to suit your needs. Some piggybacks can replace certain functions of the stock ecu as well. For example the SMT7 able to take control of the stock ecu's O2 sensor trim so you can tune to a user set AFR.

What can you do with a piggyback?
Piggybacks are more commonly used to help the stock ecu cope with larger then stock injectors as well as control timing to prevent detonation caused by to much timing advance (will explain later).
Depending on the piggyback unit you can also use it to control extra injectors for water/alcy injection; launch control; open & closed loop control...to name a few.

Piggyback Pros:
-Cost: Piggybacks can do allot for the price you pay for the unit. Instead of getting a EMS just to tune in 550cc injectors, you can easily get away with a piggyback and in the end save 700+!
-Stock ECU retained: In some cases you cannot remove the stock ecu because of local laws and what not, you can get away with using a piggyback as it can be hidden an allow the stock ecu to remain present for inspection. (also some places test your DIAG port to see if the stock ECU is still there and working, which really sucks to be them)

Piggyback Cons:
-REMOVE FUEL, ADD TIMING:
This is by far the LARGEST concern on SELECTED piggybacks. When you use the piggyback to control larger then stock injectors you typically interface the MAF/AFM/MAP sensor and modify the signal going to the ECU. So say you have to pull fuel because your larger injectors are dumping to much fuel what happens is the ecu thinks there is LESS air entering the engine thus thinking there is less LOAD, well less load means that its safe to advance the timing to help with combustion. While this is fine for when you really are not putting a large load on the engine (IE off boost), this can be DEVASTATING to your engine in that since the timing has been advanced in a high load area the chances of detonation is greatly increased!

This is why I DO NOT recommend the S-AFC unit to anyone because of the fact it cannot control timing (or at least have the ability to retard it).

-ECU Battles:
Most ecu's work by FUEL TRIM, in which the ecu injectors fuel from a set map then takes a reading from the O2 sensor. If the Air Fuel Ratio is not where it is supposed to be (IE idle/light load at 14.7:1) the ecu will either remove or add fuel, now depending on how much it had to the ecu will apply that as a %.
"wheres the problem?"
Well say if you are at 50% throttle and getting into boost, and you want to add some fuel to keep away from any threat of detonation, the ECU will notice that it is getting way to rich and try to lean things out even more. Eventually the ecu will hit its limit of 20% lean max trim and fire off a check engine light. ANNOYING!
There are piggybacks that can modify the O2 sensor signal to get rid of this problem such as the SMT6 (woot).
OBD-II systems suffer from this battle the worst! (5vz & post 1mz guys using the stock ecu).

How much am I going to pay for these things?
Generally the price range on piggybacks are from a modest 450 (SMT6 at times) to a stupid 750+. However units like the SMT7 and the new Emanage ultimate both have a lot of features that offset the high prices and are still cheaper then some EMS's.

What is out there and what do you...Weasy2k....think? (Rated by

1 being the worst 5 being the best)

S-AFC:
Features:

Ease of Use:

Price:

Summary: Well the fact that it can only do fuel trim and some other minor shiz....that kinda sucks....but you don't need a laptop to tune! thats pretty cool.....at a price of around 250-400 its fairly cheap...but for what you get...bah...

Greddy Emanage Ultimate:
Features:

Ease of Use:

Price:

(if i could go HALF a eye roll i would!)
Summary: Controls fuel AND timing as well as Air fuel ratio map control with several correction maps (even one for A/T) pretty good, but at what cost...600? no thats just for the unit...add 75-100 for the harness...YES the HARNESS....want to use the AFR target function? add 18 bucks...want to use the temp compensation maps? add 25 bucks....how about the map switching ability....yeaaaaa....28 bucks...
So for a total 770 bucks you get the greddy e-manage......

"The Greddy e-manage Ultimate does what no other piggyback ECU can, "

SEE: SMT6 and to beat it SMT7

End page one

Weasy2k · 01-13-2006, 03:35 AM

SMT6:
Features:

Ease of Use:

Price:

Summary: Fuel and Timing control, Extra injector(s) control, NO2 activation, Camm switching activation, temp and boost compensation maps, map switching, O2 Lamda control (however not at same time as regular MAF/AFM/map tuning)......thats almost all the smt6 can do....overall these units are aw some, the only problems I have with them is problematic triggering with Toyota vehicles but is corrected using a resistor from the ground to the crank input. The software is a bit intimidating but not to bad once you get used to it! Also at a price of 475....its cheap for what it does!!

Last for my piggyback tests....(I'm getting sleepy)

SMT7:
Features:

Ease of use:

Price:

Summary: You can say im biased...fine...but the list goes on and on for what this Standa-- i mean piggyback can do! Fuel & Timing of course, AFM learning which can be used to remove the AFM in place of a MAP sensor, boost control, extra injector(s) control, full compensation maps, dual map switching, AFR target maps, Wideband open loop control, up to 10 outputs with different "setpoint" options (for fans, pumps etc)....that is just a piece of what this unit can do! This is defiantly the closest to standalone you can go before going all the way. Once again the tuning screen is a bit confusing at first and takes a bit to get used to, lack of wiring diagrams and install guides (other then the S2S Tuning one and the install manual included in the package) may create a harder time installing the unit.
The price, while not really expensive, of 685 is still higher then the rest....esspecialy for those who wont even use all the features!

The TurboXS Unit:
Features:

Ease of Use:

Price:

Summary:
Well to me this is a pritty pointless unit...like the s-afc it only does fuel and can datalog.....act as a shift lite too? Wow...for 375 that is nothing i would consider useful at all. Heck the HKS Fuel Regulator unit is better then this as it costs 175 and does virtually the same thing.
I wouldnt really recommend it

EDIT:
I have to say that YES i am a reseller of the SMT line of products, and you may think that I am being biased on all this and you should (as said by others) take all this with a "grain of salt", please understand that this is all up for discussion. The reason WHY i went with perfect power and the SMT series piggybacks is because of the above reasons! Why would I go for something thats not as good yet costs more? I am also a greddy & HKS dealer as well yet i don't go boasting about there piggybacks, it just does not match up as well as the SMT units do. I'm not here looking for money, most people are but I'm not like that and some people can back me up on this. So take it the way you want it, but please if you have any input post it here! This way I and everyone can see and add their own input to the matter. I will change the above info accordingly if things change.

Thanks and I hope this has been helpful.

Murphy · 02-21-2006, 10:44 AM

Any views on the TurboXS unit, the one that uses a GameBoy for interface?

Weasy2k · 02-21-2006, 01:19 PM

Forgot about it

Murphy · 02-27-2006, 10:50 AM

Looking at it some more, it appears that it controls fuel only, just like the S-AFC. So it would have the same drawbacks.

Except it costs more.

So much for that then.

Weasy2k · 02-27-2006, 12:45 PM

yea its definatly in the lame catagory

The s-afc comes wiht a little screen to tune with...why do i want to get a gameboy advanced?

AndrewMcG · 03-31-2006, 04:10 PM

Hmmm.... E-manage ultimate or SMT7 for my 5vzfe???? Choices, choices.

DBHMR2 · 03-31-2006, 09:27 PM

does the hks vpc also control the fuel

N8s93turbo · 03-31-2006, 10:15 PM

Good work Weasy

Weasy2k · 04-02-2006, 12:48 AM

thank you guys, i have edited the last post to reflect some flake i am getting from other forums....

The VPC does control fuel by eliminating the maf and playing with buttons. I have tuned with this before. Once you get used to it, it works very well. To bad it is disconinued!

I have been using the smt6 on my 5vz-fe s/c for 3 years and 80k km now...amazing thing...tune and forget

Here is a big discussion about the smt6 smart guys here and it was this forum that brought me to the smt6.

http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.p...highlight=smt6

I have added this to the above post:

"I have to say that YES i am a reseller of the SMT line of products, and you may think that I am being biased on all this and you should (as said by others) take all this with a "grain of salt", please understand that this is all up for discussion. The reason WHY i went with perfect power and the SMT series piggybacks is because of the above reasons! Why would I go for something thats not as good yet costs more? I am also a greddy & HKS dealer as well yet i don't go boasting about there piggybacks, it just does not match up as well as the SMT units do. I'm not here looking for money, most people are but I'm not like that and some people can back me up on this. So take it the way you want it, but please if you have any input post it here! This way I and everyone can see and add their own input to the matter. I will change the above info accordingly if things change."

turbonatormr2 · 04-02-2006, 03:00 AM

I hate piggy backs. Would never recommened them. I say if you cant afford an EMS. Save your money until you can. With an EMS system you can tune to perfection. (IMO) it's a cheap way to go. And I know for a fact that Mr2's and cheap do not go well together. They go together as good as oil and water in the same tank.

DBHMR2 · 04-02-2006, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasy2k

thank you guys, i have edited the last post to reflect some flake i am getting from other forums....

The VPC does control fuel by eliminating the maf and playing with buttons. I have tuned with this before. Once you get used to it, it works very well. To bad it is disconinued! "

ya i have just bought one from someone in my area, the only bad thing i have heard about it that it is discontinued, does anyone know why it is discontinued?

AndrewMcG · 04-02-2006, 12:06 PM

HKS spent all their money on Sircnay's sisters so they couldn't afford to keep producing them.

Weasy2k · 04-02-2006, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turbonatormr2

I hate piggy backs. Would never recommened them. I say if you cant afford an EMS. Save your money until you can. With an EMS system you can tune to perfection. (IMO) it's a cheap way to go. And I know for a fact that Mr2's and cheap do not go well together. They go together as good as oil and water in the same tank.

Or people like you who cant tune them or just dont have the know how and the tools to should not get a piggyback. Otherwise with a little bit of work you could get it to work VERY well.

Timing, Fuel and even fuel trip or boost control (SMT7 example)

Give me a technical reason why its no good?

turbonatormr2 · 04-02-2006, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasy2k

Or people like you who cant tune them or just dont have the know how and the tools to should not get a piggyback. Otherwise with a little bit of work you could get it to work VERY well.

Timing, Fuel and even fuel trip or boost control (SMT7 example)

Give me a technical reason why its no good?

Ok! I allways say if you are going to do something you might as well do it right from the begining. An EMS system (IMO) is the best way to go. Reason number one is you can tune the car way better than any piggy back. Piggy backs are like palying russian rulet. You better hope you dont get the bullet. I think it takes more than a little bit of work to tune them. Why take a chace on you investment you workd so hard for. You also said the magic word it can work very well but not perfect like an EMS and if you are going to modify it you might as well make sure it's perfect. I am a strong believer from my owne experinece with my car that if you are going to modify a car you might as well do it right instead of trying to Micky Mouse it, becasue in the end you will end up needing the EMS anyways. (IMO) dont waste your money on any piggy backs they are more of a hassel than what they are really worth and on top of that you have to find some one to install it properly and also what kind of tech support do you get form them?

Weasy2k · 04-02-2006, 09:10 PM

Once again thats not technical

In the end for high horsepower high investment engines yes EMS will be a good route, but i can make my piggyback run just as good as you can with a EMS below the 350-400 range. I could probably go higher but i just choose not to.

I don't get that Russian thing....as there is no different in chance between piggyback and standalone....you can **** up standalone too buddy...whats even worse...the stock tables arnt there as when its in a piggyback unit. The stock ecu can always fall back on the knock sensor or its base maps if something happens.
I have ran my Tacoma 100whp higher then stock for 80k km and 3 years. NO issues...i don't need a ems still...so why say ill end up needing one anyway? I plan to push my Tacoma engine even further up to 200whp more over stock through the summer and I'm just going to be using the smt7, once again wheres the need for standalone there?

Once again stop saying negative things about a product you don't even know about! I wont dwell into the details of how you can ge ta piggyback (when you use the right one) to work correctly with the stock ecu and have no issues, just because its a waste of my time. Of course if someone is interested into finding that out they can let me know.

Tech support? What about Greddy? AEM? Hydra? All the same...the company that sells it is the one that supports it (typically!), I am in constant contact with the DEVELOPERS/Engineers of the perfect power stuff. I don't have to go through all the mumbo jumbo tech guys just to find the right answer, instead its right to the source. Of course thats if I cant figure it out first :P

Sorry for sounding like an ass but i really don't like it when people chime in on their opinion of things when they have no real technical information on it to back them up!

Weasy2k · 04-02-2006, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DBHMR2

ya i have just bought one from someone in my area, the only bad thing i have heard about it that it is discontinued, does anyone know why it is discontinued?

It was discontinued due to its age and the fact that sales were really low.

Was so much money for what you got.

Locofrancais MR2Guru · 02-21-2007, 05:35 PM

http://mapecu.com/map1.html

ToyotaTechGeek · 02-21-2007, 07:54 PM

if i may interject:
i think there should be some clarification here! there are definite 'good' piggyback (like e-manage, SMT) and there are things like S-AFC and such. the 'crappy' piggyback 'fool' the ecu. mind you, i think they have their place(s)...
the good piggyback actually capture signal and 'translate'/convert for the ecu. i think there are (again) definite places where 'crappy' piggybacks belong. and i think that the 'other' type are a good intermediate for those not needing full standalone, those who may still want the security of oem reliability.

Weasy2k · 02-23-2007, 02:18 AM

Thanks for the input!

The others do have there places....in the mr2/toyota world where the maf/afm/map decides load/timing the above "ratings" apply (in my opinion, i would love to hear others as what i wrote is not a definite answer but its what i believe)...if you had a honda where they dont take load based on just that so the timing doesn't go into dangerous grounds becuase you pulled fuel the s-afc works just fine.

01-13-2006, 03:34 AM	#1 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,895 Thanks: 34 Thanked 80 Times in 66 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	All about piggybacks! Start: Debate Well its been a while since i added something here and been meaning to write this up. So hear goes: Definition: Piggybacks "black box's" are units that work along side the stock ecu rather then eliminate it all together. They intercept/modify signals from your engine sensors that go to the ecu (or vice versa) and modify them to suit your needs. Some piggybacks can replace certain functions of the stock ecu as well. For example the SMT7 able to take control of the stock ecu's O2 sensor trim so you can tune to a user set AFR. What can you do with a piggyback? Piggybacks are more commonly used to help the stock ecu cope with larger then stock injectors as well as control timing to prevent detonation caused by to much timing advance (will explain later). Depending on the piggyback unit you can also use it to control extra injectors for water/alcy injection; launch control; open & closed loop control...to name a few. Piggyback Pros: -Cost: Piggybacks can do allot for the price you pay for the unit. Instead of getting a EMS just to tune in 550cc injectors, you can easily get away with a piggyback and in the end save 700+! -Stock ECU retained: In some cases you cannot remove the stock ecu because of local laws and what not, you can get away with using a piggyback as it can be hidden an allow the stock ecu to remain present for inspection. (also some places test your DIAG port to see if the stock ECU is still there and working, which really sucks to be them) Piggyback Cons: -REMOVE FUEL, ADD TIMING: This is by far the LARGEST concern on SELECTED piggybacks. When you use the piggyback to control larger then stock injectors you typically interface the MAF/AFM/MAP sensor and modify the signal going to the ECU. So say you have to pull fuel because your larger injectors are dumping to much fuel what happens is the ecu thinks there is LESS air entering the engine thus thinking there is less LOAD, well less load means that its safe to advance the timing to help with combustion. While this is fine for when you really are not putting a large load on the engine (IE off boost), this can be DEVASTATING to your engine in that since the timing has been advanced in a high load area the chances of detonation is greatly increased! This is why I DO NOT recommend the S-AFC unit to anyone because of the fact it cannot control timing (or at least have the ability to retard it). -ECU Battles: Most ecu's work by FUEL TRIM, in which the ecu injectors fuel from a set map then takes a reading from the O2 sensor. If the Air Fuel Ratio is not where it is supposed to be (IE idle/light load at 14.7:1) the ecu will either remove or add fuel, now depending on how much it had to the ecu will apply that as a %. "wheres the problem?" Well say if you are at 50% throttle and getting into boost, and you want to add some fuel to keep away from any threat of detonation, the ECU will notice that it is getting way to rich and try to lean things out even more. Eventually the ecu will hit its limit of 20% lean max trim and fire off a check engine light. ANNOYING! There are piggybacks that can modify the O2 sensor signal to get rid of this problem such as the SMT6 (woot). OBD-II systems suffer from this battle the worst! (5vz & post 1mz guys using the stock ecu). How much am I going to pay for these things? Generally the price range on piggybacks are from a modest 450 (SMT6 at times) to a stupid 750+. However units like the SMT7 and the new Emanage ultimate both have a lot of features that offset the high prices and are still cheaper then some EMS's. What is out there and what do you...Weasy2k....think? (Rated by 1 being the worst 5 being the best) S-AFC: Features: Ease of Use: Price: Summary: Well the fact that it can only do fuel trim and some other minor shiz....that kinda sucks....but you don't need a laptop to tune! thats pretty cool.....at a price of around 250-400 its fairly cheap...but for what you get...bah... Greddy Emanage Ultimate: Features: Ease of Use: Price: (if i could go HALF a eye roll i would!) Summary: Controls fuel AND timing as well as Air fuel ratio map control with several correction maps (even one for A/T) pretty good, but at what cost...600? no thats just for the unit...add 75-100 for the harness...YES the HARNESS....want to use the AFR target function? add 18 bucks...want to use the temp compensation maps? add 25 bucks....how about the map switching ability....yeaaaaa....28 bucks... So for a total 770 bucks you get the greddy e-manage...... "The Greddy e-manage Ultimate does what no other piggyback ECU can, " SEE: SMT6 and to beat it SMT7 End page one

01-13-2006, 03:35 AM	#2 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,895 Thanks: 34 Thanked 80 Times in 66 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	SMT6: Features: Ease of Use: Price: Summary: Fuel and Timing control, Extra injector(s) control, NO2 activation, Camm switching activation, temp and boost compensation maps, map switching, O2 Lamda control (however not at same time as regular MAF/AFM/map tuning)......thats almost all the smt6 can do....overall these units are aw some, the only problems I have with them is problematic triggering with Toyota vehicles but is corrected using a resistor from the ground to the crank input. The software is a bit intimidating but not to bad once you get used to it! Also at a price of 475....its cheap for what it does!! Last for my piggyback tests....(I'm getting sleepy) SMT7: Features: Ease of use: Price: Summary: You can say im biased...fine...but the list goes on and on for what this Standa-- i mean piggyback can do! Fuel & Timing of course, AFM learning which can be used to remove the AFM in place of a MAP sensor, boost control, extra injector(s) control, full compensation maps, dual map switching, AFR target maps, Wideband open loop control, up to 10 outputs with different "setpoint" options (for fans, pumps etc)....that is just a piece of what this unit can do! This is defiantly the closest to standalone you can go before going all the way. Once again the tuning screen is a bit confusing at first and takes a bit to get used to, lack of wiring diagrams and install guides (other then the S2S Tuning one and the install manual included in the package) may create a harder time installing the unit. The price, while not really expensive, of 685 is still higher then the rest....esspecialy for those who wont even use all the features! The TurboXS Unit: Features: Ease of Use: Price: Summary: Well to me this is a pritty pointless unit...like the s-afc it only does fuel and can datalog.....act as a shift lite too? Wow...for 375 that is nothing i would consider useful at all. Heck the HKS Fuel Regulator unit is better then this as it costs 175 and does virtually the same thing. I wouldnt really recommend it EDIT: I have to say that YES i am a reseller of the SMT line of products, and you may think that I am being biased on all this and you should (as said by others) take all this with a "grain of salt", please understand that this is all up for discussion. The reason WHY i went with perfect power and the SMT series piggybacks is because of the above reasons! Why would I go for something thats not as good yet costs more? I am also a greddy & HKS dealer as well yet i don't go boasting about there piggybacks, it just does not match up as well as the SMT units do. I'm not here looking for money, most people are but I'm not like that and some people can back me up on this. So take it the way you want it, but please if you have any input post it here! This way I and everyone can see and add their own input to the matter. I will change the above info accordingly if things change. Thanks and I hope this has been helpful. __________________ -Johnny @ Sea2Sky Tuning - www.sea2skytuning.com http://www.mr2.com/forums/sea2sky-tu...-out-sale.html Last edited by Weasy2k; 04-02-2006 at 12:53 AM.

04-02-2006, 12:48 AM	#10 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,895 Thanks: 34 Thanked 80 Times in 66 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	thank you guys, i have edited the last post to reflect some flake i am getting from other forums.... The VPC does control fuel by eliminating the maf and playing with buttons. I have tuned with this before. Once you get used to it, it works very well. To bad it is disconinued! I have been using the smt6 on my 5vz-fe s/c for 3 years and 80k km now...amazing thing...tune and forget Here is a big discussion about the smt6 smart guys here and it was this forum that brought me to the smt6. http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.p...highlight=smt6 I have added this to the above post: "I have to say that YES i am a reseller of the SMT line of products, and you may think that I am being biased on all this and you should (as said by others) take all this with a "grain of salt", please understand that this is all up for discussion. The reason WHY i went with perfect power and the SMT series piggybacks is because of the above reasons! Why would I go for something thats not as good yet costs more? I am also a greddy & HKS dealer as well yet i don't go boasting about there piggybacks, it just does not match up as well as the SMT units do. I'm not here looking for money, most people are but I'm not like that and some people can back me up on this. So take it the way you want it, but please if you have any input post it here! This way I and everyone can see and add their own input to the matter. I will change the above info accordingly if things change." Last edited by Weasy2k; 04-02-2006 at 12:54 AM.

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02-21-2006, 10:44 AM	#3 (permalink)
Murphy Speed Merchant Join Date: May 2005 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Any views on the TurboXS unit, the one that uses a GameBoy for interface?

02-21-2006, 01:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,895 Thanks: 34 Thanked 80 Times in 66 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	Forgot about it

02-27-2006, 10:50 AM	#5 (permalink)
Murphy Speed Merchant Join Date: May 2005 Location: Manitoba, Canada Posts: 101 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Looking at it some more, it appears that it controls fuel only, just like the S-AFC. So it would have the same drawbacks. Except it costs more. So much for that then.

02-27-2006, 12:45 PM	#6 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,895 Thanks: 34 Thanked 80 Times in 66 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	yea its definatly in the lame catagory The s-afc comes wiht a little screen to tune with...why do i want to get a gameboy advanced?

03-31-2006, 04:10 PM	#7 (permalink)
AndrewMcG Its not lag, Its foreplay Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 747 Thanks: 6 Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	Hmmm.... E-manage ultimate or SMT7 for my 5vzfe???? Choices, choices.

03-31-2006, 09:27 PM	#8 (permalink)
DBHMR2 Cage Fighter Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: SEFFNER, FLORIDA Posts: 252 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	does the hks vpc also control the fuel

03-31-2006, 10:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
N8s93turbo TEAM A.S.S. RACING Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Mississippi/Pennsylvania Posts: 2,473 Thanks: 5 Thanked 26 Times in 17 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (14/100% )	Good work Weasy

04-02-2006, 03:00 AM	#11 (permalink)
turbonatormr2 Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2005 Location: San Jose Posts: 999 Thanks: 0 Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I hate piggy backs. Would never recommened them. I say if you cant afford an EMS. Save your money until you can. With an EMS system you can tune to perfection. (IMO) it's a cheap way to go. And I know for a fact that Mr2's and cheap do not go well together. They go together as good as oil and water in the same tank.

04-02-2006, 12:06 PM	#13 (permalink)
AndrewMcG Its not lag, Its foreplay Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 747 Thanks: 6 Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	HKS spent all their money on Sircnay's sisters so they couldn't afford to keep producing them.

04-02-2006, 09:10 PM	#16 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,895 Thanks: 34 Thanked 80 Times in 66 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	Once again thats not technical In the end for high horsepower high investment engines yes EMS will be a good route, but i can make my piggyback run just as good as you can with a EMS below the 350-400 range. I could probably go higher but i just choose not to. I don't get that Russian thing....as there is no different in chance between piggyback and standalone....you can **** up standalone too buddy...whats even worse...the stock tables arnt there as when its in a piggyback unit. The stock ecu can always fall back on the knock sensor or its base maps if something happens. I have ran my Tacoma 100whp higher then stock for 80k km and 3 years. NO issues...i don't need a ems still...so why say ill end up needing one anyway? I plan to push my Tacoma engine even further up to 200whp more over stock through the summer and I'm just going to be using the smt7, once again wheres the need for standalone there? Once again stop saying negative things about a product you don't even know about! I wont dwell into the details of how you can ge ta piggyback (when you use the right one) to work correctly with the stock ecu and have no issues, just because its a waste of my time. Of course if someone is interested into finding that out they can let me know. Tech support? What about Greddy? AEM? Hydra? All the same...the company that sells it is the one that supports it (typically!), I am in constant contact with the DEVELOPERS/Engineers of the perfect power stuff. I don't have to go through all the mumbo jumbo tech guys just to find the right answer, instead its right to the source. Of course thats if I cant figure it out first :P Sorry for sounding like an ass but i really don't like it when people chime in on their opinion of things when they have no real technical information on it to back them up!

02-21-2007, 05:35 PM	#18 (permalink)
Locofrancais MR2Guru Cage Fighter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 542 Thanks: 2 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (9/91% )	http://mapecu.com/map1.html

02-21-2007, 07:54 PM	#19 (permalink)
ToyotaTechGeek Giapetto is NOT my dad! Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: ...boosting mid-corner Posts: 548 Thanks: 7 Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	if i may interject: i think there should be some clarification here! there are definite 'good' piggyback (like e-manage, SMT) and there are things like S-AFC and such. the 'crappy' piggyback 'fool' the ecu. mind you, i think they have their place(s)... the good piggyback actually capture signal and 'translate'/convert for the ecu. i think there are (again) definite places where 'crappy' piggybacks belong. and i think that the 'other' type are a good intermediate for those not needing full standalone, those who may still want the security of oem reliability.

02-23-2007, 02:18 AM	#20 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,895 Thanks: 34 Thanked 80 Times in 66 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	Thanks for the input! The others do have there places....in the mr2/toyota world where the maf/afm/map decides load/timing the above "ratings" apply (in my opinion, i would love to hear others as what i wrote is not a definite answer but its what i believe)...if you had a honda where they dont take load based on just that so the timing doesn't go into dangerous grounds becuase you pulled fuel the s-afc works just fine.