Greddy e-manage????

[Mekkahfire]

I plan to run some nice sized injectors, a TD06 turbo @20psi ish, complete OEM rebuild with forged 8.5:1 pistons, and obviously all breather boltons- including a berk intercooler..

Will the e-manage be enough to control injector duty cycle? Or does it still depend on the OEM ECU, and will still have timing issues??

[p2motorsportmr2]

thats a good question! I would also like to know. The emanage and emanage ultimate is such a good price it would great if it worked like a standalone and not like an SAFC.

[Tearstone]

The e-manage is a piggyback but in some aspects it has stand alone functions.

The e-manage blue I think can only control the injectors that are twice as big over stock. The e-manage blue can only control the injector pulse by grounding out the signal longer to keep the injectors open longer, it does not however control the injectors by taking away fuel. You have to do that with bending your MAS signal much like an AFC would which is the basic setup of the e-manage blue. The e-manage blue needs the injector and ignition harness to really be worth the money.

I'm still a little new with the Ultimate myself, but instead of assigning fuel correction to all injectors with the blue you can do each individual injector with the Ultimate. Also the nice thing about the Ultimate is that it will allow you to eliminate your MAS in favor of a MAP type setup. While there is a lot of debate about which way is the best to meter air, it's still an option.

What other questions do you guys specifically have about the e-manage?

[Sang]

both are piggybacks and as such, are limited by the ECU just like the safc and every other piggy back on the planet.

I have yet to see good emanage setup on an mr2 to date and the ultimate is *supposedly* capable of adjusting some timing however.

if you plan to use large injectors, get an EMS and have it properly tuned. a piggyback is NOT the proper tuning source or else we'll be seeing a thread asking about motor rebuilds...

Also, the 400-600 you see these things sell for is just for the unit, if you look into all the extra accessories that you need and add that into the cost, you're looking at 700-800. If it were me...i wouldn't pay 800 just to be restricted to the ECU, i'd rather save the extra few hundred to get the proper EMS.

[Tearstone]

Originally Posted by Boz

both are piggybacks and as such, are limited by the ECU just like the safc and every other piggy back on the planet.

This is true to a point sense, but with the injector correction with the injector harness bypasses what the ECU is doing with the injectors.

Originally Posted by Boz

I have yet to see good emanage setup on an mr2 to date and the ultimate is *supposedly* capable of adjusting some timing however.

That's a bit pessmistic, do you have any threads where anyone has documented their experiences good or bad with the e-manage?

Originally Posted by Boz

if you plan to use large injectors, get an EMS and have it properly tuned. a piggyback is NOT the proper tuning source or else we'll be seeing a thread asking about motor rebuilds...

Also, the 400-600 you see these things sell for is just for the unit, if you look into all the extra accessories that you need and add that into the cost, you're looking at 700-800. If it were me...i wouldn't pay 800 just to be restricted to the ECU, i'd rather save the extra few hundred to get the proper EMS.

You can pretty much get an E-Manage blue with injector and ignition harness for about $360. Most reputable tuners have the e-manage tool these days to program it which is an additional $100.

The E-Manage Ultimate is still a tad bit expensive, you can find the unit for $550 and the harness for about $75 which is a total of $620 for the full solution since the E-Manage Ultimate comes with the CD already.

While I completely agree replacing your ECU or flashing your ECU is the ideal situation, not everyone's power requirements call for doing such a thing where a piggyback would suffice to dramatically make a huge impact with controlling injectors and timing.

IMHO I feel that S-AFC is a toy and should only be used on BPU setups such as naturally aspirated situations where your just installing intake/headers/exhaust etc. It's probably not best to be using the S-AFC on a turbo vehicle because manipulating your air flow signal excessively will undoubtedly have an impact on other things your ECU does.

We have the e-manage blue and e-manage ultimate installed on turbo converted eclipses, turbo suzuki swifts, turbo charged Toyota land cruiser we've yet to find a vehicle that it does not work good on. I am going to install one on my MR2 when I'm ready. Primarily I just want to get that air meter out of there.

[Sang]

taken from horsepowerfreaks.com

emanage blue - 303.20
Injector harness - 38.50
Ignition Harness - 41.80
IGN and RPM adapters - 36.00

and since greddy conveniently doens't include the pressure sensor or the pressure sensor harness but are mandatory for the install:

Pressure Sensor - 123.50
Pressure Sensor Harness - 35.00

Now...this is all assuming you know the pinouts of the very well and can install the unit yourself. This also does not include the software and link to tune it yourself (not all tuners carry the emanage stuff...some very good dyno tuners in my area don't). So, IF you needed that its:

Software+ Link - 139.00

So...that's 578+, without the software, if you needed that too, it's 717.00

That's a little too much for me to fork over for an emanage (not the ultimate btw which is more expensive from the get-go)

And no...i have yet to hear/see ANY mr2 that uses it, i'm sure there's a good reason behind it.

[Tearstone]

Are the IGN and RPM adapters required for the MR2?

You don't need the pressure sensor unless you run out of air flow value on the blue, we've yet to need one yet for this purpose.

It's pessimistic to have that view as to why no MR2s don't use it. I want to see a thread where someone has actually tried and was not succesful. People are probably not trying it due to your unfounded bashing of the unit, it's not really a fair review IMHO.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Tearstone

Are the IGN and RPM adapters required for the MR2?

You don't need the pressure sensor unless you run out of air flow value on the blue, we've yet to need one yet for this purpose.

It's pessimistic to have that view as to why no MR2s don't use it. I want to see a thread where someone has actually tried and was not succesful. People are probably not trying it due to your unfounded bashing of the unit, it's not really a fair review IMHO.

What i said was, "there's probably a good reason why no one's used it". I never stated that reason as i don't know why other people don't use it. Either they do and dont go online sharing the results, or they don't use it because they see it the same way i see it, money that could be put aside towards an EMS.

I'm not pessimistic about it. If you've been in this community long enough, you'll realize that *most* people in here (here as in the US, Canada etc etc) chose to go for reliable horsepower. That's why you see so many people dumping 10+ G's on an engine setup only pushing 400-500whp when other platforms spend that much and end up with 600-700 ya know? IMO reliable horsepower isn't using a piggyback to run 350+whp. i sleep better knowing that my ecu isn't being tricked to do what i want, instead i'd rather have an ecu that is completely standalone and nothing being the middle man with my $$$ motor. And anything under 350whp people have the option of romtunes which is sorda like an EMS...to an extent but definately not as versatile.

[Sang]

Ok, let me go back for a second. Again, i'm NOT trying to sound pessimistic, but this is my personal opinion when it comes to ANY piggybacks vs ems.

I realized i didn't answer some of the questions you posted up in my last post so i'll try and touch on those for a sec.

-You are correct that the the boost pressure sensor is only needed only at a certain point. But, since our cars doens't use a MAP, instead the ecu uses the afm, you WILL need the pressure sensor to tune for 12+psi.

-If your primary focus is to remove the AFM, the emanage is not up to the challenge, it will be based on the AFM. However, the emanage ultimate appears to be able to remove the AFM (but like you said, it's more costly to go that route) especially when a vpc is only 300-350 nowadays.

-I honestly don't remember if the two adapters are required or not, so lets take that out of the equation, it's still going to run 550-700 even without it.

-I take back what i said about people using the emanage. I do recall a couple people from a while back, i believe one using an ultimate that posted about having issues with it (can't remember what they were) and another using either the old school emanage or ultimate (i can't remmeber which). But i do recall neither of them posting anythin gabout it after using it.

Here is what an experienced tuner (and well respected IMO) thinks about greddy's emanage:

Originally Posted by RickyB

$746 for the components and then, unless you are pretty good at wiring you will probably need to pay someone to properly install the unit for you. A professional installation using a modified VPC harness so that your engine harness doesn't need to be cut up will probably run at least $500 (I know because I do these things). This actually puts you above the cost of a plug and play SDR. Looking at the tuning instructions I can see that this system is going to take just as much time if not more to tune properly for any significant changes such as bigger injectors or cams as an EMS, so figure another $600-1000 for professional tuning. In the end, however, you will still have artifacts of the underlying stock ECU to deal with while the guy who went with the EMS doesn't.

My suggestion is to price EVERYTHING out from initial unit purchase until the point where you will have a fully tuned and properly working and reliable setup. Chances are that a plug and play EMS will turn out to be a better value when all is said and done.

[Tearstone]

Originally Posted by Boz

I'm not pessimistic about it. If you've been in this community long enough, you'll realize that *most* people in here (here as in the US, Canada etc etc) chose to go for reliable horsepower. That's why you see so many people dumping 10+ G's on an engine setup only pushing 400-500whp when other platforms spend that much and end up with 600-700 ya know? IMO reliable horsepower isn't using a piggyback to run 350+whp. i sleep better knowing that my ecu isn't being tricked to do what i want, instead i'd rather have an ecu that is completely standalone and nothing being the middle man with my $$$ motor. And anything under 350whp people have the option of romtunes which is sorda like an EMS...to an extent but definately not as versatile.

Dude your join date is July 2006!

That Land Cruiser I was telling you about is making a nice reliable 700whp with a Greddy E-Manage Ultimate. Just like most anything else, if you know what your doing it will work.

On the same token I'm with you the EMS is a great product but it is indeed expensive and overkill for people that are not looking to drop more money than they paid for the car in the hardware + tuning alone and among other reasons. Not everyone is looking for a monster setup in their vehicles. I know for a fact with a few years of experience under my belt that the e-manage is a viable tool for tuning. I never said it was the end all, just that it's viable.

[Tearstone]

Originally Posted by Boz

Here is what an experienced tuner (and well respected IMO) thinks about greddy's emanage:

I have never ever heard of anyone paying 600~1,000 to tune an e-manage. It only takes one hour if you know what your doing. Tapping the stock harness for all the wiring is no big deal and it takes about an hour to install one.

So what it looks like is that you are simply repeating information on the forums, I'm not seeing any information come from you on anything you have personally had experiences with.

How often do you go back to Tampa? I'll be more than happy to show you first hand how the unit works and all the vehicles that they have been running on.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Tearstone

Dude your join date is July 2006!

my join date HERE is july 2006. i've been with mr2oc back when it was board.mr2faq.com 4 yrs ago (i haven't been around as long as other that have seen what, all 3 revisions of the board, but i am not a complete newb to the community)

but you'll still be paying for the same amount of time to tune the emanage as you would an ems. so the price is still going to be high either way is what i was trying to point out.

I do realize that most people don't want to build monsters, but even a good street build can be had with a romtune for 750.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Tearstone

So what it looks like is that you are simply repeating information on the forums, I'm not seeing any information come from you on anything you have personally had experiences with.

i base my decisions not by trial and error, but i'd rather do it correct and reliable the first time around. In doing so, that entails hearing others reviews and experiences and see if that is the correct method for ME. Again, i'll say it once more, this is MY personal take on piggy backs/ems.

You are correct in that i don't have first hand experience with tuning the emanage and i can garuntee you that i probably never will as i'm not a tuner nor do i plan to install an emanage. I'm sure 99% of the people here can't fully tune an EMS either, so what do they do, they take the word of a tuner and go about their business.

The reasons why that is, is what i posted in this forum. Others can take it in and take it however they want, i'm not a mind controller nor do i intend to be with my opinions.

I'm not trying to bash the emanage/ultimate, it's just not my cup of tea. If someone wants to use it and see what it'll do on a 3sgte, by all means, i'm willing to learn new things just like anyone else, and i'm sure it'll put out a decent whp if done correctly.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this subject.

[Tearstone]

Originally Posted by Boz

but you'll still be paying for the same amount of time to tune the emanage as you would an ems. so the price is still going to be high either way is what i was trying to point out.

I do realize that most people don't want to build monsters, but even a good street build can be had with a romtune for 750.

I'm pointing out that to tune an e-manage only takes an hour maybe two if the tuner is not used to it. It's a lot different with the EMS since you have nothing to start with and you have to put the car under various load conditions in order to get the proper values for just about everything, your starting from scratch.

It costs $750 to reprogram your ECU? Is that like sending it off and getting it back in the mail kind of thing? Personally, I think there is something to be said for being enpowered with tuning your own car regardless of what device you are using.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Tearstone

.It costs $750 to reprogram your ECU? Is that like sending it off and getting it back in the mail kind of thing? Personally, I think there is something to be said for being enpowered with tuning your own car regardless of what device you are using.

a good chunk of that is installing the techtom rom board to the factory ecu, that is what enables aaron, et al. to tune it. You send them your ecu if you want to avoid the core charge, they'll modify+tune your ecu and send it back. all retunes after that is $150 (in case you perform a dramatic change to your setup) which you'll see no downtime. Since your ECU already has the techtom board, they will send you a new burnt chip in the mail and you just slid it in place of the old one.

ATS is working with mototek (sp?) on trying to provide a use tuneable romtune. iirc it is still in the working stage and they are also experimenting with using larger injectors (larger than 550s) as well. but agian, that is also in the experimentation stage.

[Tearstone]

This reminds me the ever so popular monkey psychological experiment commonly dubbed "because that's the way we've always done it" Sometimes, it's okay to think out of the box and see what happens The original topic poster has quite a positive additude about making things work and I believe if anyone will try it, I'm sure he will.

I've yet to hear of a solid reason as to why the e-manage or e-manage ultimate is not a viable option (regardless of whatever reasoning someone has of wanting to use it) for this car. When I get around to installing one in my MR2, then I'll keep you guys posted for sure.

[Tearstone]

Originally Posted by Boz

a good chunk of that is installing the techtom rom board to the factory ecu, that is what enables aaron, et al. to tune it. You send them your ecu if you want to avoid the core charge, they'll modify+tune your ecu and send it back. all retunes after that is $150 (in case you perform a dramatic change to your setup) which you'll see no downtime. Since your ECU already has the techtom board, they will send you a new burnt chip in the mail and you just slid it in place of the old one.

ATS is working with mototek (sp?) on trying to provide a use tuneable romtune. iirc it is still in the working stage and they are also experimenting with using larger injectors (larger than 550s) as well. but agian, that is also in the experimentation stage.

Wow that's pretty awesome! Out of curiosity can the ECU be flashed without the use of the circuitry addition, do dealerships have the ability to flash these ECUs?

[Sang]

Originally Posted by Tearstone

Wow that's pretty awesome! Out of curiosity can the ECU be flashed without the use of the circuitry addition, do dealerships have the ability to flash these ECUs?

i doubt the dealership can do it, and if they could, i don't think they'd do it for anything else but stock specs.

I don't know how Mine's and Blitz tunes their ecus, but iirc they do it in a somewhat similar fashion as gforce/romtune. No one in the states are able to reflash a blitz or mines that i know of, and the gforce shares the same techtom board as the romtunes.

[Tearstone]

Originally Posted by Boz

i doubt the dealership can do it, and if they could, i don't think they'd do it for anything else but stock specs.

LOL Undoubtedly so! I meant like is it even possible for the dealership to reflash the stock ECU for whatever reason Toyota sees fit? I imagine if they have a way to reflash the ECU it could potentially be done outside of their facilities, at least that's what was figured out in the Mitsubishi world, but primarily with more modern ECUs.

Originally Posted by Boz

I don't know how Mine's and Blitz tunes their ecus, but iirc they do it in a somewhat similar fashion as gforce/romtune. No one in the states are able to reflash a blitz or mines that i know of, and the gforce shares the same techtom board as the romtunes.

Very interesting stuff, from what I know the Supra guys can't reflash their ECUs either, but there not many Supras that I know if that still have their stock ECUs anyways.

[p2motorsportmr2]

So an E-manage ultimate can control timing. Then what am I missing out on by getting e-manage? Every one mostly complains about the SAFC inability to tune becuase it doesn't control timing. A full stand alone is basically out of the question $1200+tuning+sensors. If i can get a well tuned 350whp from an emanage for $800-$900. It seems the ultimate has pretty detailed fuel and timing maps, probably well built and reliable, no stupid timing wheels or coil packs to mount(motec,tec,sds,ms...). AEM and Hydra are pretty nice but they are pretty expensive. I don't mind doing my own wiring and i don't think greddy has a firmware tuning service unlike apexi pfc, so any tuner should be able to tune the e-manage not just certified dealers.