Problems with ChrisK and EngineLogics :(

[sab0276]

I had a really bad experience with Chrisk/EngineLogics. <<Story to follow>>. You can see Chrisk's true nature in his replies and how he deals with his problems.

<<Story to follow>>

I hope that Chris does not try to bully the management here to remove this post, or that if he does that they don't back down. The purpose of the Buyers/Seller Feedback section is to keep people honest and warn others of possible problems. Everyone should be able to post their experiences even if it is with a board sponsor.

If you want me to post my story directly here, please let me know.

-Scott

[sab0276]

Yikes! There is a <<Story to follow>>.

-Scott

[Hiighboost2]

Id like to hear the story, I had a semi unpleasent dealing with elogics as well, but it wasent all chrisk's fault

[Mekkahfire]

I would like to see the story posted please.

[skillzo1]

Be prepared for a HUGE post.

[phzoinkMKII]

I read it when it was first posted and oh my god, everything that he went through sucked. Sorry for a crappy experience.

[sab0276]

Short Version:
I had a very bad experience with ChrisK and Enginelogics. A lot of other people have had problems with him recently too. I would definitely suggest that you look elsewhere if you can. If not get every single promise in writing from ChrisK. He will point fingers and blame anyone else if he possibly can if anything goes wrong.

Long Version:
When I first started looking for a built engine, Chrisk's name was brought up and recommended as a good machinist and engine builder. At that time, I think he was still working in his own garage and had very little overhead. I spent a lot of time talking to him on the phone and seemed very knowledgeable and willing to share information. He promised me that it would be done right and that he takes pride in his work and that if anything should happen he will not leave me out to dry. He basically promised me the world and I believed it.

I purchased the engine in the fall of 2004 and it was installed in the spring of 2005. When NoShoes went to tune it we noticed some problems. The first thing was that it was very difficult to set the initial timing because there was enough room to rotate the distributor housing. Dave from MR2 Warehouse had to slot the distributor housing to just to be able to set the correct initial timing. I also noticed that the EGT's where sky high and the turbo would overboost if you were not careful. Also it would lose some coolant and I had to keep an eye on it.

We put it on the dyno and had to retard the exhaust cam timing to get the EGT's down and it made a little more power. NoShoes and I both thought that the cam gears where not adjusted properly because of the issues we were having as well as the cam gears were both set at exactly at 0* and did not look like they were adjusted. At first I thought there was no way that ChrisK could have made a mistake given his reputation on the boards. But when I contacted ChrisK he immediately got defensive and said that NoShoes must have messed them up. When I mentioned that NoShoes only touched the exhaust cam gear and only did so on the dyno after we were experiencing problems ChrisK then started blaming Dave from MR2 Warehouse for not knowing how to install the clutch correctly. Dave does swaps for a living and does this day in and day out. I just gave up on asking ChrisK for help and resided to the fact that I would have to pay NoShoes to fix it.

So I scheduled NoShoes to fix the cam timing a month later. In the meantime I took it to the track to see what it would do. My best time was a 13.3 in the 1/4 mile.
When NoShoes re-did the timing he noticed that both exhaust and intake were off by a lot. After he fixed the cam timing we noticed a significant improvement in power and a drop in the EGT's. When I went to the track I ran a 12.5@110mph. That is a huge improvement over what it was like originally.


A few months later it was losing more and more coolant and I had to add coolant, but it never really overheated. In the fall of 2005, I went to the track and it overheated. After that it would overheat all the time. I thought it might be a blown headgasket so I took it to a shop to check for hydrocarbons in the coolant. It came up positive for hydrocarbons. When I contacted ChrisK and told him about it, he immediately said that it was impossible and that someone must have done something to it.
I remembered that a lot of people recommend re-torquing the head studs after breaking in the engine, but ChrisK had advised against it. I thought maybe the head studs needed to be re-torqued and thats why it had been leaking coolant all along. I asked him if the head studs should be re-torqued after the engine was broken in and he stated that the head studs should never be re-torqued after they are initially done by him.

So with the head gasket obviously blown I asked him what he was going to do about it. After giving me quite a hard time and trying to blame the cause on everyone else, he told me that he would take care of me and told me a story of how one of his customers forgot to put oil in his engine and blew it up and how ChrisK rebuilt it for free. I thought great, that's just what I wanted to hear. Because ChrisK had blamed the problems on the person who installed the engine (Dave from MR2 Warehouse) and my tuner (Bryan "NoShoes" Moore), I sent the entire car to him instead of just the engine. That way if there was a problem there would be no question as to who’s fault it was (or so I thought).

When ChrisK took the engine apart, at first he said that there were signs of obvious detonation and that NoShoes's tuning was the fault. He later said that there wasn't signs of detonation and he just said that because NoShoes was attacking him. He later said that the cause was it overheated due to lack of coolant and that someone had put in the wrong length bolt into the coolant neck and that is why it was leaking, not the head gasket. I told him that I had just replaced the coolant bolt with a brand new one from the dealership. He then said that the block must have been stripped therefore did not allow the bolt to bottom out thereby allowing coolant to escape. I reminded him that he is the one who sent me that block. He told me that it was not his fault that the block he sent me was stripped and if I had a problem with the block that I should take it up with Toyota. He said it was akin to if you buy a VCR from Best Buy and it has a problem, you don't take it back to Best Buy to fix it, but you would have to send it to the manufacturer.

Essentially he was just trying to find someway to blame the headgasket failure on someone else. Instead of doing the rebuild for free like he alluded to, he charged me $4000. This is after I had just purchased the brand new fully built motor from him for $6500 less than a year ago!
At this time ChrisK had sold someone’s cams and head that they sent to Chris, because that person hadn't paid them for any work. ChrisK sold someone else’s property instead of returning it. At this point I figured I had no choice but to pay him right away as he probably would have sold my car if I did not pay him the full amount.

[sab0276]

After the install, ChrisK told me that my boost gauge did not work. He never mentioned this when he first received the car. I asked him if he remembered it working when he got the car, and he swore to me that it did not work right when he got it. I told him that it had always worked fine and that it worked fine when I sent it there. He insisted that it never worked correctly when he got it, but I knew better. He probably messed it up accidentally during the install.

When I got the car back I noticed that it had very noticeable valve tick and it had a bad stutter around 3000rpm and just felt like it fell on its face. I took it to the track to try to run some logs and tune the car better, even though ChrisK promised me that he had broken the car in properly on the dyno and spent several days tuning it. I immediately noticed in my logs that my IAT was at like -20* the entire time and did not change. Either the IAT sensor was broken or not plugged in. I told ChrisK about it and he said that it was definitely plugged in and working when the car was shipped back to me and that it must have been removed during shipping, and that it was not his fault.

I thought to myself, yeah the pesky shippers must have figured out how to open the engine lid, undo all of the intercooler piping and removed the throttle body just to unplug the IAT sensor and then put everything else back in place. Boy those shipping guys are hilarious, what a good practical joke.... Hmmmm, or maybe ChrisK just forgot to plug it in and was trying to blame it on someone else as usual.


I ended up finding the IAT plug tucked nicely behind the fuse box. Probably where he put it while he was removing the engine. How he tuned the car without the IAT sensor is beyond me. I have the Nemesis and it is a Speed-Density system. You need to know the Intake Temperatures to know the Density of the air.

So after seeing that, I though I would test the Boost Gauge to see if it was really broken or if ChrisK messed something else up. I hooked my MityVac vacuum/pressure pump directly to the boost gauge and it worked properly. I knew ChrisK was lying when he said that it didn’t work when he first got the car. I figured he probably broke one of the lines that go to the gauge. So I hooked the boost gauge back up and went to the line in the engine compartment and it worked fine. I then looked at how he had the vacuum lines run and realized he made a really big mistake. He had the intake manifold, valve cover, fuel pressure regulator, and boost gauge all hooked up together using several T’s. How can you create pressure in the line when it is hooked up the valve cover which has PCV hose!? That got me a little nervous, because the FPR needs to see the changes in vacuum and pressure in order to always be at the right pressure. When I started the engine and blipped the throttle, the fuel pressure did not change! That’s not good.

So I fixed the vacuum hoses. Once I did this, the boost gauge started working correctly and the FPR worked correctly. This brought up another major concern. How the hell did ChrisK tune the car properly if the fuel pressure was not accounting for the changes in vacuum or pressure in the intake manifold? His map had to be completely messed up after I plugged in the IAT sensor and fixed the vacuum lines and FPR. I asked him several times about this but said that it should be fine, and he never really answered any of my questions. I did not feel comfortable with the way the car ran on ChrisK’s map after I plugged in the IAT and fixed the FPR, so I used NoShoes’s map from before since the engine should still have the same VE.
Chris did not even refund the $500 he charged me for ‘tuning’ my car.

Moral of the story is that ChrisK may have had a good reputation on this board a few years ago, but he can no longer be trusted. He will not honor his word and he will point fingers and try to blame anyone but himself so he does not have to take responsibility.
Why this is, I do not know, but I do think that it happened roughly the same time that he opened up his own shop, bought all that expensive equipment, and hired full time employees. Maybe the pressure and expenses of his new shop was too much. Either way, I would not recommend him any more, and I would stay as far away from him as possible. This should also be evident by the fact that he is no longer a board vendor due to the way he has treated board members recently. There are several credible board vendors that can build high performance engines.

-Scott

[sab0276]

Chrisk replied with this
http://www.enginelogics.com/barton.html

[sab0276]

I have addressed some of the issues that you raised on your website. My responses are below:

Originally Posted by chrisK

Overheating.

After racing your car for a couple of months and setting some standing mile records you contacted me and told me that you are having an overheating issue and what I think it might be. By your own admitence you told me that you drqg raced the car knowing that the cam timing was not correct.

I did not know for a fact that the cam timing was incorrect until NoShoes actually verified that it was messed up while he was re-doing the cam timing. You led me to believe that the cam timing could not have been messed up and told me that it was OK. I did all of my racing and land speed records after NoShoes fixed the cam timing.

Originally Posted by chrisK

You also told me that the engine never overheated badly.

I did tell you that it had been overheated badly once, and that after that it would start to overheat if I boosted it hard for a while, but that I never overheated it badly after that.

Originally Posted by chrisK

I told you to take the car to a local shop that can measure for hydrocarbons. You came back to me and told me that the water tested positive. I then told you that it can be more than one problem.

1. A bad head gasket upon which you immediately told me that I then have to replace it for you for free because I built the engine.

2. A cracked cylinder head upon which you told me that if the cylinder head is craked I had to replace it because I supplied the head

3. A cracked cylinder block and same story here, I had to replace it because I supplied it.

You told me that all of these things could have been problems with the engine before you rebuilt it (this was not my core). You told me that you do some checks, but if you did not find a problem, even if there was one, you could not be held accountable for delivering me a bad motor. You stated that if you used a bad block, that I would have to take the problem up with Toyota, not you, since they are the manufacture. I disagreed since you are the one who sold me the block. It is ridiculous to expect me to contact Toyota regarding problems with a rebuilt block that you performed work on and sold to me.


Continued below...

[sab0276]

Continued from above...

Originally Posted by chrisK

Your car arrived a while later and would not start thus not giving me the opportunity to check what works and what not. The first thing I noticed when we pulled the engine was that the top of the transmission was unusually clean. Upon closer inspection we noticed that the bottom bolt on the water outlet housing was not fully seated on the housing flange. Then we realized that the bolt that was put in was too long and it bottomed out making it imposable for the housing to seal properly.

I contacted you and told you about my findings and it was only at this point that you told me that you replaced the old water housing which was not installed by me with a new housing because the old housing was leaking. Just wonder why you failed to tell me of this prior to me discovering it and pointing it out to you.

The bolt not seating properly Clear indication that the engine was driven this way for some time because below the bolt the trany is steam cleaned.

That bolt as well as the water outlet and most hoses were replaced AFTER the engine was overheated badly. The reason I replaced most of the coolant system was to make sure that it was not the problem. There was no obvious leak in the cooling system, but it was loosing coolant somewhere (maybe out the tailpipe), and I wanted to make sure that it wasn't the cooling system that was leaking.

The reason it was so clean was because I cleaned the engine bay after I replaced most of the coolant system AFTER it overheated. Because I was originally so sure that you could not have made a mistake and that the headgasket could not have been blown, I replaced almost all of the cooling system to make sure that it was not the problem. I cleaned the engine so that if there was a problem, that it would be easy to tell by where the mess was. I used green coolant and it makes a mess that is easy to see (trust me, I know, I spilled alot while replacing the system).

Chris states that it is exceptionally clean because it was "steamed clean" by the coolant. If coolant spilled on it, it would have left a large GREEN MESS or green stain. Notice in his pictures that there is no green mess and is instead "exceptionally clean". This is because after I replaced most of the coolant system and cleaned the engine bay, there was no coolant leak from the cooling system.

Yet I was still losing coolant and starting to overheat when boosting with no signs of an obvious leak?
What are some possible causes to this? Is a blown head gasket one of those possible causes? Is it usually the first thing to check for? I took the car to a shop and had them test for hydrocarbons in the cooling system. I watched them perform the test. It very noticeably came back positive for hydrocarbons. I even have a receipt that shows the test was done and that it had hydrocarbons in the coolant. I believe Chris even saw this receipt as it was in the car when I sent it to him. Yet Chris says that the gasket formed a perfect seal even though the head was warped and twisted. He even says that there were no hydrocarbons in the coolant.

You will notice that he immediately blames the fact that motor blew because of that bolt that was too long. This bolt was a brand new Toyota bolt purchased from CraggieB of IronToad Toyota. I would think that a stock bolt should be of the proper length. I asked Chris if I torqued the bolt down all the way and he said that "The bolt was fully torqued down and bottomed in the hole." Please see the email below. Notice that even though I told him that it was replaced AFTER it overheated, he still blames the original problem on this bolt.

When I asked him how the correct bolt would not fit correctly he said that he must have gotten a block that had a cross-threaded hole. This was a block that was given to him by someone else. It was not my core. Yet this is somehow my responsibility? I suppose that I should take it up with Toyota as he told me to do before?



>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Scott Barton [mailto:scott_barton@hotmail.com]
>Sent: Friday, April 28, 2006 11:25 AM
>To: chrisk@enginelogics.com
>Subject: RE: Problems with engine
>
>Hi Chris.
>
>Thanks for the upate.
>
>I installed the new coolant neck and new bolts after it overheated. Those
>are both brand new OEM pieces I replaced recently while trying to make sure
>that neither the hoses or anything else was causing the leak. The bolt was
>ordered from Toyota, so it should be the correct one. Was it torqued down
>all the way? Is the hole in the block ok?
>
>I think there must be some other leak as well since it was leaking and
>overheating before I installed the the coolant neck and bolts.
>
>I am concerned about the bent valve though. What are possible causes? Any
>idea on the leak down on cyl # 2?
>
>Thanks.
>
>-Scott

Chrisk's Response:

>From: "enginelogics" <chrisk@enginelogics.com>
>To: "'Scott Barton'" <scott_barton@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: Problems with engine
>Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2006 12:01:56 -0500
>
>The bolt was fully torqued down and bottomed in the hole.
>
>Other than that, two of the fuel rail bolt holes that bolts the rail to the
>head are striped. The Banjo bolt on the turbo was so tight that I had to
>use a 6' breaker bar to get is loose.
>
>Cylinder # 2 has no problem both with compression and leak down.
>
>I will go ahead and tear down the engine.
>
>Regards
>
>Chris
>Phone 281-933-2262
>Fax 281-710-7295
>www.enginelogics.com


Continued below...

[sab0276]

Continued from above...

Originally Posted by chrisK

When I confronted you with this evidence you for the first time admitted that the engine overheated severely on more than one occasion and it was also at this time that you agreed that you will pay for the repair and admitted that my workmanship was not at fault.

I had told you before I sent the car to you that it had overheated, and that after that it would start to overheat if boosted for a while. I never stated that your workmanship was not at fault, and I had no choice but to pay you in full for fear of you selling my motor or car as you had just recently done to others.

Originally Posted by chrisK

After the car arrived at your place you contacted me and told me that the car was not running right and you also told me that the IAT was unplugged. I told you that I think it was impossible because the car ran perfect at this side and the AFR’s was spot on. There was no stumbles any where at any given rpm or load. At all times we had air temp indications. Fuel pressure was correct and injector duty cycle was spot on for the HP produced at every RPM break.

I went ahead and sent the logs and maps via e-mail to RickyB who informed me and you that everything checked out perfect. After that I haven’t heard a word from you until this post.

Your comment that we had the lines screwed up just ammaze me. Just wonder how we were able to get the injector duty cycles and the tune correct if every thing was setup the way you are trying to indicate. Do you realy want to make me believe that after all the comunication between us that I would overlook or install the lines like you indicate... please give me a breake.

Are you saying that it is impossible for the car to have been shipped with the IAT sensor unplugged and Vacuum hoses messed up?
It is a fact that there were problems with the tune when I received the car. Upon doing some logged runs, I noticed the IAT was at -20* and stayed there. I found the IAT plug tucked neatly behind the fuse box.
You also stated that the boost gauge would not register boost. The boost gauge worked when I sent it to you. Yet when I hooked it up directly and tested it, it worked but was reading 5psi low. It also registered vacuum. I also checked the FPR and it did not change with the way the vacuum lines where set up when I received the car. Did you or did you not connect a vacuum hose from the Intake Manifold to the Valve Cover? This same vacuum line was hooked up to the FPR and the boost gauge through several T's.

After you re-installed the motor and re-ran the vacuum lines, you noticed that the boost gauge did not work. You blamed it on a faulty boost gauge instead of faulty installation.

> > >From: "enginelogics" <chrisk@enginelogics.com>
> > >To: "'Scott Barton'" <scott_barton@hotmail.com>
> > >Subject: Boost Guage
> > >Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 12:52:21 -0500
> > >
> > >Scott,
> > >
> > >Are you aware that the boost gauge does not work? It is connected but it
> > >will not show boost.
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >
> > >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Scott Barton [mailto:scott_barton@hotmail.com]
> >Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:28 PM
> >To: chrisk@enginelogics.com
> >Subject: RE: Boost Guage
> >
> >Hi Chris.
> >
> >The aftermarket A-pillar boost gauge worked fine, but the stock dash boost
> >gauge is not hooked up.
> >
> >-Scott
> >
> >
> >From: "enginelogics" <chrisk@enginelogics.com>
> >To: "'Scott Barton'" <scott_barton@hotmail.com>
> >Subject: RE: Boost Guage
> >Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 15:31:10 -0500
> >
> >It is the A-Pillar boost gauge I am talking about. Since we received the
> >car
> >it showed -6 and that's where it sits.
> >
> >Regards
> >
> >Chris
> >Phone 281-933-2262
> >Fax 281-710-7295
> >www.enginelogics.com
> >
>From: "enginelogics" <chrisk@enginelogics.com>
>To: "'Scott Barton'" <scott_barton@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: Boost Guage
>Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2006 09:18:52 -0500
>
>No the boost gauge is not working.
>
>Regards
>
>Chris
>Phone 281-933-2262
>Fax 281-710-7295
>www.enginelogics.com

By your own admitance you said that the boost gauge did not work when you had the car. It worked fine when I sent it to you. How is it possible that the boost gauge did not work with the vacuum hoses hooked up the way that you had them, yet it worked fine once I hooked the vacuum lines up correctly? Maybe the boost gauge did not work for you because you had the vacuum lines hooked up incorrectly?

Please see my post here from June 20th asking for help with this problem.

Please see these pics for more detail:
http://www.scottbarton.net/MR2/VacuumLines

As you can see I clearly had these problems and am not making them up. Chris says that it is impossible that he could have made a mistake and that it must have happened during shipping. How does the IAT sensor get unplugged and tucked behind the fuse box and the vacuum lines get re-routed during shipping? Are we supposed to believe that those pesky shippers played some sort of practical joke on me and figured out how to open the engine lid, remove the intercooler piping, remove the throttle body, and then unplug the IAT sensor and tuck it nicely behind the fuse box, and while they were at it, they figured they would reroute the vacuum hoses for good measure? Or is it possible that Chrisk could have made an easy mistake and instead of owning up to it, he is frantically trying to place blame elsewhere?


Chris, did you do all of the labor and installation of my motor yourself or did you have someone else do part of it?


Chrisk, on your web page dedicated to me, please post a link to this thread for all of the world to see. Or are you afraid of people reading the whole story?

-Scott

[sab0276]

If you look at the original threads on the other board in the buyers/sellers feedback section. You will see the full detail including Chrisk's own responses.
It really shows his true nature.

Instead of trying to help, he immediately got on the defensive, stated that there was no way he could have possibly made a mistake, started pointing fingers and trying to place blame on anyone but himself regardless of the facts presented, and then personally attacking anyone who was trying to help figure out the problems.

He has done this repeatedly with other people as well.

I'm not saying that he can't build a motor or that everybody will have problems with his motors. I'm just saying that if you have any problems with Chrisk, this is the type of customer support and response you can expect. This is how he treated me after spending over $10,000 with him. Are you willing to take that kind of risk?

-Scott

[ursoboostd]

I kept up with this for a while. Chris just seems like he absolutely will not take any responsibility. Because he makes no mistakes. -Wade-

[Mekkahfire]

Wow, ive definately learned something in this thread. I want to extend an extremely large thank you for posting this thread, as i seriously considered him for a 450hp build. Im 22 years old and would not be able to afford a mechanic who cannot admit to mistakes, and instead, targets my wallet.

[imweip]

jeebus. That sucks. I never realized how lucky I am to have someone l can trust to do a good job on my engine. But he doesn't have a shop. He had a shop with his brother and a friend (all of whom were awesome tuners), the other two guys just wanted to work on their cars all day long, and the one guy was tuning every car. It got to a point where he was sleeping about 16 hours a week (at the shop), and working the rest. At one point he had lost a ridiculous amount of weight, and that's when they stopped being able to pay the bills. The guy took whatever he could, and the last remaining cars to be finished, and he finished them at a friend's shop. That's the kind of guy I think ChrisK thinks he is, but obviously he is more like this guy's brother.

[sab0276]

Originally Posted by Mekkahfire

Wow, ive definately learned something in this thread. I want to extend an extremely large thank you for posting this thread, as i seriously considered him for a 450hp build. Im 22 years old and would not be able to afford a mechanic who cannot admit to mistakes, and instead, targets my wallet.

There are 4 Threads (almost 400 posts) on the other MR2 message board in the Buyers/Sellers Feedback section. Take a look at those, especially the first one to see Chrisk's posts to see how he really responds to problems and treats his customers in his own words. They are posted under the same title.

-Scott

[EL PAALO]

Thank you very much.
Some good suby tuners from the NE like to do dyno weekends for us TX guys now and then, but they use engine logics ......... I think I'll pass just because that adds to his wallet.

[matadorCE]

Originally Posted by EL PAALO

Thank you very much.
Some good suby tuners from the NE like to do dyno weekends for us TX guys now and then, but they use engine logics ......... I think I'll pass just because that adds to his wallet.

I wanted to mention this on the other board but didn't since i've got no first-hand experience either with ChrisK/EngineLogics or with WRX tuners that deal with them, i thought best just to keep quiet.
I haven't heard of any complaints so far from the subby folks, although i think Engine Logics just got an awd dyno a couple of months ago so there might not be enough data points yet. I didn't know if it was them who was doing the tuning or someone else.

[ExtremeMr2]

I think you guys need to give ChrisK a break...
1- Cam timing should be fine tuned on the dyno anyway
2- The main cause of a blown head gasket is detonation
3- What do you expect when you return a engine/car to the builder after it had overheated.
When the problem was first noticed it should have been addressed.. whether you fix the coolant leak yourself or send the car/engine back to get fixed.

You paid for your engine etc., and had the work done. This doesnt mean that you do not have to take care of the car and maintain it.

I think it was a big mistake racing, when a problem was known.