almost got her running again

[Adrians89MR2SC]

blew the dust of my old 89 mr2 sc and tried to get it running .. put a brand new motor in it this time last year and haven't started it yet (well hasnt run yet)


it will start, idle really rough, then cut off after about 10 seconds

got a guy helping me right now trouble shoot it, but were runnin into some trouble


cleaned out the throttle body and ISC - didnt fix it
checked all my grounds - there good
checked timing - timing belt and distributor are right on the marks
afm - checks out good

printed off all the pages for troubleshooting the EFI system with a multimeter

only thing ive come across is when I was checking stuff with a multimeter on the ecu w/ the ignition on is the voltage for the AFM wasnt in spec for vs - e2

its supposed to be 3.7 - 4.3 volts .. but im getting about 1.5 volts when the afm plate is closed

the motor idles really rough, smells rich, and the plugs are black when I pull them

the AFM ohm's out good according to the BGB, and the wires from the afm to the ecu are good (no shorts or corrosion)

would a bad ECU cause this to happen? .. there is some rust on the ecu like its been exposed to water or something

that guy has two good ecu's, so tommorow im going to get one and try it ..

anyone got any other ideas of what might be wrong?

thanks,

Adrian

[Adrians89MR2SC]

ok . put in a new ecu

mine had yellow sockets on the bottom of it .. both of his have grey sockets

my harness has grey plugs, and his has yellow plugs

anyone know why this is ???

also .. now it will start and try to idle / stumble around 400 rpm then cut off

im stumped .. checked over all the sensors and wiring .. all seems fine, throttle body is clean, checked timing and its spot on (cams / tdc lined up .. and distributor pointed torwards #1)

when I do start it .. if i press the gas pedal, it will rev to 3000 rpm and hold there and slowly work its way back down to 400 then cut off .. if i press the gas pedal again whilst its at 3000 rpm, it will rev REALLY fast up to 6000 rpm .. but wont idle

anyone know why its doing this ... I can mess with the gas pedal (barely press it) and it will idle really roughly (shakes alot) around 1000rpm

[Adrians89MR2SC]

ok, its not the fuel regulator .. im getting a little frustrated

basically the motor wont idle worth a crap ..

it will rev to about 3000 rpm, and will rev freely above that

but below that its really rough and will shake alot till it goes down to 400 and cut off

wont start without pressing the gas some

ANY IDEAS? .. im stumped .. been through all the BGB stuff and cant find anything

afm is good
tps is good
coolant temp is good
throttle body is clean
cam timing is good
everything ohms out good
fuel regulator is good
compression is approx 125 across all cylinders (new rings / honed cylinders)
did a spark test, get REALLY nice big spark on all plugs


would bad gas cause it / clogged fuel filter / dist. timing far off (pointed torwards #1 at tdc)

??????????????????????????????????

[Timon]

Honestly this sounds like what happened when I was installing a fuel pump switch. When the fuel pump wasn't getting enough continuity the engine rev freely, but the idle was extremely rough. The engine would go down to about 400-500 and stay in that range. The lights on the dash would go on as if the car had died, but the engine would barely stay running.

If this sounds about right, I would think to check the fuel pump and the wiring going to it.

[Adrians89MR2SC]

that sounds like whats happening ..

but could you still rev yours? .. I can rev it up to redline, but wont idle at all ..

if I press the gas it will shoot to 3000 rpm, sit for a second or two then come back down .. but anything in the 400 - about 2000 rpm range is rough .. but over 3000 it will rev really fast up to redline

sits there and shakes at around 400

what would I check? .. im pretty sure the previous owner put in a supra pump (or some other big pump) .. but it ran fine last year on the old motor (went bang in 14 miles)

I was also thinking about the injector relay, or any of those other relays ..

[Adrians89MR2SC]

ok ..

put a new fuel regulator on there (came off a running 4agze) .. it was smaller than the one that was on my car

but made no difference ..

had a friend start the car and rev it whilst I watch .. the car puts out HUGE amounts of black smoke .. I'm talking about two 6 foot streems of smoke forced out of each tip of the HKS exhuast

any ideas what makes a 4agze run this rich

only things I havent checked yet are the EGR valve and Fuel Filter

I used to have a toyota pickup and remember it puffing out black smoke, the fuel filter was clogged

im probably going to change the filter tonight, but it sounds to me as if the fuel pump is just pumping fuel into the motor

I do know that the previous owner (joe vick) put a bigger supra pump or something in b/c my car used to have a v6 swap (the first in the U.S )

Thanks,

Adrian

[mr2tim]

Sounds like our friend from Utah has the right idea with the fuel delivery mal-function.?

After my 3rd Fuel pump replacement (3 mr's) I discovered that there is several "stages*" of fuel pump output, from just barely running (your problem?) to WOT where the output* is boosted electronically by the ECU with the help of the AFM.

Page FL-118 of the 89 Manual shows the circuitryfor the "High Temperarture Line Pressure Up System". You'll note that the Fuel Pressure VSV (regulated by the EFI Main Relay) and the Water Temp Sensor (tied into the Air Temp Sensor circuit in the AFM) all have imput to the ECU for this to happen..

Additionally, there is a Fuel Pump Switch (fc)-green/red in the AFM. The connection to the Fuel Pump wire is the (Fp) location on the AFM.

The black smoke could be? that hopped up Fuel Pump whose output is no doubt well atop the OEM output?

THE vS-e2? (anomaly)
e2 is a Brn ground wire,
the Vs (yellow-blue) is the power side of the AFM rheostat.
If this power side of the switch (rheostat) is out of "spec" then the base line for power coming into the switch is questionable for sure?

I've recently learned to photograph my "OEM Service Manual" so if any of the above need clarification drop me a line and I'll copy ya'll.

I seriously doubt that your Rev Limiter (Toyota=Fuel Cut Rpm) is involved (Page FL-128) unless you run out of other tests?


Patience bro, you got it runnin'--
grab that multi-meter and duck when the Hurricane goes over..

Supercharzed Toyz
A Toyota Race Team

[Adrians89MR2SC]

the vs - e2 anomaly ????

I have the BGB .. printed off all the multimeter tests and I do remember seeing that the vs-e2 wasnt in the voltage range
(with ignition switch on / taking reading from back of ecu connectors)

I do have two afm's and they both ohm out the same, along with there the same with a guy that has a running 88 mr2 sc

and the wiring harness from the afm to ecu is good, no shorts or anything

ill look at that page.

the "power side" is that the voltage to the afm .. that was in spec .. something like 4 - 5 volts iirc

as for the fuel pressure vsv .. I dont have that hooked up right now, dont really know if it works so I just left if off .. and tried various things from leaving no vacuum line, to hooking it straight to a vacuum port on the manifold

I do remember the bigger regulator that was on my fuel rail, when I hooked a vacuum line to it that it did seem to rev from 1500 - redline responsively .. but still didnt idle right

Joe vick is being a **** and wont offer any help since I "offend" him every time I contact him .. so whether he put a supra pump in or not, or changed any stuff on the motor I have no clue (guess thats why the fuel regulator was a bigger one on the 4agze fuel rail he gave me ) ..

WARNING: DO NOT DO BUSINESS WITH HIM, HE WILL SCREW YOU OVER !!!
(anyone that was going to buy something from him can just paypal me the money I just saved them )

I'm trying to hang in there, but a 3sgte swap is getting more tempting every day .. my daily driver is a 91 turbo and I LOVE that motor, awsome / easy to work on / and reliable little beast

anyways, but first i'd like to get the 4agze running ..dont really want to hack it all apart and start back where I was two years ago

I built the motor this time last year, new rings / bearings / head gasket / seals / timing belt / etc

so I doubt if anything is wrong internally, but the motor just shakes at idle and will only rev after playing with the gas to get it up in the higher rpms .. im guessing the fuel regulator isnt big enough to return all the fuel the pump is pumping to the fuel rail, but why did it run good on the last motor last year ??????

Thanks,

Adrian

[Adrians89MR2SC]

I just took some videos .. just noticed a weird sound it started making .. see if these help any


heres the first one .. got a vacuum line run from the nipple on the intake manifold (between throttle body and valve cover, next to the tps) to the fuel regulator and the ABV

You Tube

the second one the vacuum line is attached to the intake manifold and goes to the abv (nothing attached to the fuel regulator)

You Tube

you can hear some popping in the second video, and afterwards some smoke came out of the exhuast after I shut the car off


my brother was in the car and said he revved it to about 5000 rpm .. it WONT idle worth anything .. you have to press the gas / play with the pedal to get it to run and then rev it to keep it running otherwise it just dies (he lets off the gas pedal at the end of each video)

[jdchmiel]

are you sure all 4 cylinders are firing?
did you try a different AFM since the first one did not spec out voltage wise? Ohm wise and voltage wise must both check out for the AFM to be considered good. Better yet, get a friend with running 4agze and swap parts onto his car to test them. Test your AFM and ECU in his car and see if it runs okay or not.
Did you test the coolant temp sensor?

[Adrians89MR2SC]

yes .. yes .. yes .. and yes

man ive read this damn BGB from front to back about 20 times allready ..

ive changed out the afm, ecu, and fuel regulator with good ones .. no difference

put in new correctly gapped plugs

the coolant temp sensor, along with every other sensor on the car has checked out good about 10 times ..

new fuel filter, tps, etc

its a little better than in those videos now, left a vacuum line off in those videos (the high pitched rattle / whistle noise)

I think im down the the gas has gone bad .. it ran fine last year, but wont run at all now .. nothing has changed except 3 gallons have been sitting in it for a year ..

so my next step is to drain the gas and put in some fresh gas .. if that doesnt work then hello 3sgte swap .. this 4agze has pissed me off one to many times (first motor blew in 14 miles, and this one wont run at all) .. my 91 mr2 turbo is fast / reliable / and easy as hell to work on compared to the 4agze (starter is in better place, dist. can only go in one way, waterpump is easier to change, etc)

but I got a good feeling that the gas is bad, or atleast bad enough to make it run really rough .. it doesnt smell exactly like gas, sort of a soury smell .. but still has a gas smell to it ..

so hopefully a mixture of premium fuel, octane boost, and seafoam will make here come to life

[mr3]

I know bad gas makes dirtbikes run like crap. Low idle and extremely boggy. I drained the fuel out of my one bike and it put in fresh gas and it ran like its supposed to. Hopefully fresh gas fixes your problem. If not you can just send that 4agze to me.

[Adrians89MR2SC]

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOK ..

been busy painting cars at college all week, but somehow found the energy and desire (wow thats a change) to work on my 89 mr2 again today

thought the gas smelled a little off, and since its been sitting a year I drained it all .. was a dark yellowish color (like a dark pee color)

so I put in new 93 octane and some lucas octane booster .. (smells really nice )

now it revs alot smoother, and is a little better .. but still wont idle and blows black smoke

im stumped .. but now when I play with the pedal and get it to idle at 1000, its a rough idle (sounds like I got plug wires crossed, but there not ) .. and the ISC lowers the idle till it dies

[Adrians89MR2SC]

Got a new video

This time I fixed that vacuum leak, new gas, and fuel filter

YouTube - 1989 Mr2 SC - Wont Idle #3

and now im getting a code 21 and 51

seems to me as its getting better though

[mr2tim]

Hi Adrian,

You finally got a break draining the gas tank. The 87-89's have a drain in the bottom of the tank, the 85-86's do NOT have any and you gotta pull the tank.

BTW I learned you can get a Code 21 with bad wiring goin' into the ECU and old hard broken wires.

The video was cool.

PS My Code 51 came from not having a AC amp plugged in.

mr2tim

[Adrians89MR2SC]

ok, ill check all my wires / ohm / voltage tests again when I get back home (in florida on vacation)

whats an ac amp?

got a 51, but my a/c switch might of been on, found out my light doesnt work on the button so it could have been on but its off now