Gen3 Debate

[AndrewMcG]

Originally Posted by kblake

Which engine is better will show in area under the torque curve, which is also affected by properly sizing your turbo to your engine, an area where both you and David erred, IMHO.

We got PWN3D!!!

I still like mine.

[DavidV]

Originally Posted by 93smgturbo

We got PWN3D!!!

I still like mine.

Nah... been there and done that with the Ct20b and Blitz K1 (properly sized turbos that were being worked close to their max potential). I was ready for a turbo that gave me enough head room to actually get the most out of those 850cc injectors and big bore rail some day... just not any day soon....

-- DavidV

[Nacho]

Originally Posted by kblake

Most of the high HP MR2's in North America are running on some built version of the Gen 2 at the moment.

Here's my built Gen 2 vs. a certain Gen 3. The Gen 3 is running 18psi to my 17psi of boost:

[img]
Ken

You still running the 2.3L?

Additionally, the only real way to compare apples to apples with dyno plots is to put at least the same turbo kit on both engines in comparison.

[Nacho]

Originally Posted by kblake

You can buy a Gen 2 and build it to similar specifications to mine for what a Gen 3 clip costs. If you are already planning EMS, bigger turbo, cams, and an intake manifold, it would be a waste of money to buy a Gen 3 to build, instead of a Gen 2. That is really my only point in this thread. Except in that single circumstance, you are most likely better going Gen 3. If you are going to build though, don't waste the extra money getting a Gen 3 to build.

SW20 MR2 (2nd Gen) - Includes 3S-GTE Engine, 5-Speed LSD Transmission, and Fuel Pump $2,895
SW20 MR2 (3rd Gen) - Includes 3S-GTE Engine, 5-Speed LSD Transmission, and Fuel Pump $3,995

Engine builds only cost 1.1k?

[Nacho]

Originally Posted by kblake

Not always. Some people want more power for bragging rights, some for spirited driving on a windy canyon road, some for the occasional stoplight drag...there are a myriad of reasons people want more power. My friend chipped his Powerstroke Diesel to get more power. Think he did it for racing?

Given that you tout these as the pinnicle of sports cars all day, i thought you'd actually be racing them. Sorry.

BTW, stoplight drags are a form of racing. "Spirited driving' is still similar, but most people who do that don't want raw power numbers, and an overpowered car.

That's nice. Heads from different manufacturers behave different, as do the rest of the engine. Why do 4G63's make more power on pump gas on the same turbos as us, when they are also DOHC, 16V 2.0L inline 4 cylinders? Why don't MR2's have problems with crankwalk. I've been around this community for 7 years now, and I've seen Honda and DSM guys come and go. They always think they're going to come in here, apply all of the same tricks that got them power on their previous car, and rewrite the power primer. Sometimes we manage to make them see reason, sometimes they have to blow up an engine or two before they see reason.

Yes heads behave differently. But it's due to which has better head designed for airflow.

Oh, and MR2s and Supras have experienced crankwalk before. Not enough to get the reputation for it, but it's happened

The 316RWHP power level you are quoting is beyond the safe limits of the stock fuel pump, and close to the safe limits of the 540cc/min injectors. That means you won't be making any more power on that ECU, since there is no way to make it run larger injectors. For all intents and purposes, that IS the limits of the stock Gen 3 ECU, and that's only with an upgraded fuel pump.

What's his stock ECU have to do with a stock fuel system again?

I never said the Gen 3 ecu is inferior to the Gen 2. I was simply pointing out some facts that you are apparently not aware of, since your area of expertise lies with Hondas and not MR2's.

I still love that you think that having more experience than JUST MR2s is a bad thing. I really find it humerous.

"If you recall correctly"??? First off, that's hearsay, not anecdotal evidence.

The IIRC was directed at the exact length of time which he made the power, not the fact it happened.

Anecdotal evidence is where a trend is demonstrated, say, that 275RWHP is the safe limit of the stock fuel system and ONE GUY says: "Well I've made 320RWHP on the stock fuel system without blowing up" He is a statistical anomaly, trying to deny the statistic's validity by offering his one example that defies the statistic. Just because there is an exception to a rule, doesn't invalidate the rule.

Lots of things are where something is stated as the limits, but then 'one guy' lies outside that rule. Then another one does. And another. And another. And finally, you're forced to reevaluate the old 'rule'

No. I NEVER said the Gen 2 ECU is better, you're putting words in my mouth. I pointed out that it could be modified, which is a service that is not availalable for the Gen 3. ATS Racing is not the only company selling Techtom ROM tunes, there are several companies out there that offer this service. ATS is the only one doing individual dyno tuning on cars using the ROM that I'm aware of, other than Yoshio, up in Canada. I'm also more familiar with ATS's products and services, so naturally I'd use them as an example.

Other companies offer the service, but you failed to mention them. You sure did make it sound like the gen II was superior simply because you can reflash it.

Sounds like a salesman to me.

I also never said that a 2.5" down pipe was better than a 3". Again, you are putting words in my mouth. What I said, was that the 2.5" is easier to install, fits better, and that 3 inches is not necessary until somewhere around the 300RWHP mark. News flash: The difference isn't all that great on a stock turbo, and KO still can't keep the 2.5" down pipes in stock.

Great. 3" is still better, even if 'not necessary'

Or you could do a little research, learn a little bit more about the car you own, and find out what the gear ratios are. I think you'll be surprised.

I'll get right on that. As soon as the community isn't filled with disinformation from salesmen pushing their products.

Let's have some Gen 2 vs. Gen 3 drags at NA2005 and see which is better.

Ken

If i attend. It all hinges on my friend with his Lotus showing up to the track day.

I assume you'll bring out all your built gen 2s (2.0-2.3L) to compete against the unopened gen 3s.

[rhouck]

The problem I am seeing is whether it actually IS more economical to choose to swap a Gen2 vs a Gen3 (as in BUYING a JDM clip, which should a person buy)

Once you get your Gen3 clip, you can sell of the ct20b (~$700-800) and 94 JDM (! lol) tails ($300-400). That gains you $1000-1200 back right there.

Then consider going to an EMS. You don't have to buy new sensors to convert from AFM to MAP system. That's a decent amount of money right there.

For the actual EMS you can just plug a PowerFC (proven to power MR2s into the 9s) and voila! nothing else needed.

I think Ken's point is valid from the standpoint of:
"I just blew my Gen2 and need to buy a new motor or rebuild" -OR- "My Gen2 works fine but I went to build a 400+ rwhp MR2 and thus need to build SOMETHING".

For both of these points, it makes little sense to scrap the Gen2 and buy a Gen3. Sure there are advantages but it will still be cheaper to go with rebuilding/building the Gen2. Though with the quality of many rebuilds (as you can attest to Ken), many people are nervous to rebuild and prefer an OEM replacement. In this instance they are offered the choice of buying a new OEM shortblock or swapping a new motor. A shortblock is what, ~$1400?

So what needs to be done is look more carefully at the price of Gen3 swaps. If you can get a clip for $3500 (and then sell off the "goodies") then I see NO reason to either rebuild back to stock or buy a Gen2.

For people doing NA swaps I see ZERO reason to buy a JDM Gen2 over a Gen3.

In summary....

one should go Gen2 if:
1. They already have one
-AND-
2. They want big power

one should go Gen3 if:
1. They have NO motor / NA motor
-OR-
2. They have a blown motor and don't plan on building their motor internally

[rhouck]

I agree with that from the sheer point that I see very little reason to EVER swap out a WORKING 3sgte motor of ANY generation

And to go with that, buying a WORKING Gen3 motor just to tear it apart seems silly as well.

However, I would still stand by the fact that the 3sgte is proven to make quite a bit of power on the stock bottom end and "building" it is not necessary for ALMOST all owners.

From that standpoint, the risks involved with building/rebuilding are usually NOT worth it to the average owner and they are better off buying a WORKING, LOW-mileage motor to swap in.

Once that is considered, the number of people who SHOULD be planning to do internals is rather low... and thus for everyone else a Gen3 WOULD be a better platform. When you actually break down what you are paying for in a clip, the cost difference is worth the improvement for a better bolt-on platform.

[rhouck]

I think the problem with the direction this discussion has gone, is an absence of ACTUAL numbers.

Outside of Nacho, no one has posted any ACTUAL dollar amounts for what things cost (not saying his numbers are the be-all/end-all however)

[MR2T32]

SW20 MR2 (2nd Gen) - Includes 3S-GTE Engine, 5-Speed LSD Transmission, and Fuel Pump $2,895
SW20 MR2 (3rd Gen) - Includes 3S-GTE Engine, 5-Speed LSD Transmission, and Fuel Pump $3,995

this is one reason why I don't suggest going gen2. The price difference is only a little bit less compared to the gen3, and the stock rating for gen2 is the same as gen1. Gen1 can be found for $1800 or less, and it is rated the same as gen2. I know Gen1 doesn't come with LSD, but the LSD tranny can be found for around 600 w/ axle. Anyways, my point here is that stock for stock you get more for the money with the Gen3 compared to the Gen2.

Making more power isn't for racing?

gotta agree with ken on this one. Even though I drag race here and there, I main purpose for more power was just for the fun of it.

I think the problem with the direction this discussion has gone, is an absence of ACTUAL numbers.

well, i had posted up the cost of my genI swap which was $2800 installed. If i would to swap the motor myself, it would have cost me $1600 for the rear clip.

my order of engine choice.
1. GenI
2. GenIII (have the money for it)
3. V6 Swap (have the money for it, and another car)

[nigel]

Originally Posted by MR2T32

3. V6 Swap (have the money for it, and another car)

why do you say you need another car if you do the v6 swap?

[MR2T32]

because the V6 swap will most likely take a while since it's not a direct bolt on like the 3SGTE. So having a beater to drive around would be a good idea since the 2 is my only car right now.

[nigel]

gotcha. I thought you were saying it is unreliable so you would want a car for when the v6 breaks down. I thought it would be more reliable then an built 3sgte. I am saving up for a v6 twin super swap in my mk1

[tigerpee]

besides the clip itself if it was Gen3, is there any other parts to purchase? also, are these parts available that partznet..etc.etc? cuz i would seriously hate to wait weeks for a part.

[Tyler H]

Originally Posted by tigerpee

besides the clip itself if it was Gen3, is there any other parts to purchase? also, are these parts available that partznet..etc.etc? cuz i would seriously hate to wait weeks for a part.

Any time you do a swap, you should budget enough to replace the ignition components and clutch. Timing belt, water pump and HFH are a good idea too. It will never be easier to get to those pieces than when the engine is out of the car. Most of the consumable gen3 stuff is commonly available or shared with the gen2. Internal parts are not commonly available, and you could have to wait weeks for replacements.

[MR2T32]

when you get a whole rear clip assumeing nothing is missing, you should not have to buy anything else for the GenIII swap. But like what Tyler H mentioned, it is always a good idea to replace the tear and wear parts while the engine is out. This goes for all engine swaps. It will save you money on labor later on down the road. If money is tight, I would suggest the following to be replaced at the very least. Hose From Hell (HFH), ignition components, and timing belt. All of these parts are not too expensive, and they can be found at most local dealerships.

[Tyler H]

Originally Posted by MR2T32

when you get a whole rear clip assumeing nothing is missing, you should not have to buy anything else for the GenIII swap. But like what Tyler H mentioned, it is always a good idea to replace the tear and wear parts while the engine is out. This goes for all engine swaps. It will save you money on labor later on down the road. If money is tight, I would suggest the following to be replaced at the very least. Hose From Hell (HFH), ignition components, and timing belt. All of these parts are not too expensive, and they can be found at most local dealerships.

I still say the clutch is a must......a lot of JDM clips BECOME clips because the clutch goes out. They drive in a lot of stop and go traffic over there, too. I've yet to see an imported engine with a clutch that was in really good condition. You can follow the BGB with a multimeter and test your wires, distributor and rotor and only replace them if they're bad. Spark plugs are cheap. The engine is non-interference, so you could even go so far as to check out the t-belt and make sure its in good shape, but a good clutch is a must in my book.

[blueprint]

I agree with everything MR2T32 has mentioned in his posts.

Except for this:

my order of engine choice.
1. GenI
2. GenIII (have the money for it)
3. V6 Swap (have the money for it, and another car)

Gen III > ALL

j/k

[nigel]

^^

yeah, I agree. If you have the money and another car, wouldnt the v6 be your first choice?

[MR.2000GT]

my gen3 can piss further than you gen2..... haha j/k.

having installed 4+ dozen of these things, and owning them all... id prefer a gen3 any day. however, i think there are instances where a gen2 would suite someone better depending on what they want to do with it.

like someone said, ct20b, no afm and fuel system are among the biggest reasons it is better, but the entire thing is refined, usually cleaner, lower miles, etc. Its Newer.

I should stop talking up the gen3s so much or no one will want to buy a gen2 from me and it will take me a year to fill a container of 18 with just gen3, lol. everyone wants to do something different though, and half the time, a gen2 is just a better suite for someone.

ah well, just thought id highlight some of those things and point out my gen3 has a bigger

[daver]

Originally Posted by rhouck

Once you get your Gen3 clip, you can sell of the ct20b (~$700-800) and 94 JDM (! lol) tails ($300-400). That gains you $1000-1200 back right there.

For people doing NA swaps I see ZERO reason to buy a JDM Gen2 over a Gen3.

In summary....

one should go Gen2 if:
1. They already have one
-AND-
2. They want big power

one should go Gen3 if:
1. They have NO motor / NA motor
-OR-
2. They have a blown motor and don't plan on building their motor internally

i went thru the same thought process while messing with honda swaps in the past. It looks like one thing that remains consistant is that prices inflate dramattically for the premier swaps over the slightly lesser ones (like the ITR swap over the gsr swap in honda land).

i've only recently started to research the mr2 "package" as i slowly tire of honda performance (affordable performance, that is), but is the extra 20 hp of the gen 3 really "worth it" over the g2 for a full grand? Does the g2 have serious issues that the g3 doesn't? It makes sense what rhouk said about buying the g3 and selling off parts to make up the $$ difference. But not if your swapping in from a non turbo mr2, kinda need the turbo at least.

I think it does come down to goals. I bought my gsr swap planning to be satisfied with its performance stock, because i knew i'd pay the difference if i tried to mod it to make it perform like an itr swap. Is that the case with these turbo engines? It seems to me that modding turbo cars can be very cheap.

What about the gen 1 turbo clip for a grand less than the g2 (so i read)? Missing the lsd and some refinement? Sure the g3 is the best package available, but who can say the g1 or g2 isn't good enough. Stock, or slightly modded.

It sounds to me like the g3 swap $ is inflated from a strict performance standpoint. Somebody correct me here.

d