Gen3 Debate

[Luni]

He still ran awesome with the stock ECU. It still never pulled timing.

Even driving the car through the California/Nevada desert (the Mojave) at 110-120 degrees it wasnt necessarily as FAST as it should be, but it still felt alot more linear, smoother, and it has CONSISTENTLY in this altitude/climate ran better than my Gen2. Id rather have his engine over mine any day of the week.

[47mr2's]

I'd have to say my gen3 with stock ecu is tempermental. When it gets cold outside the thing will pull timing and you can feel the car lose power no question. I am putting a power fc in the car and we'll see if it makes a difference. it is not onsistently pulling timing but it is kind of hit and miss. it is enough to piss you off though. I don't drive my car in the winter anymore. i noticed it a whloe lot more on my last car than on this one. It's only happened once this last fall.

[PETC]

How large of a power loss are we talking here, and with what kind of temperatures?

[Luni]

Dunno.

Again, the car went through one full summer and one full winter on the stock ECU and never once did I really feel it pull timing.

But definately it feels better with the MINES.

Im just saying that in my experience, all things being equal, the Gen2 is more sensitive to any climate change, way more than a gen3.

[47mr2's]

Originally Posted by PETC

How large of a power loss are we talking here, and with what kind of temperatures?

I'm talking about 30-40 degrees and below. It didn't do it all the time. My current car did it once this last fall. I would say 30hp is what it feels like. The 1st time I dynoed my previous car it did it. The car was running at that point 240 whp and still 275 ftlbs. The 2nd time I had it dynoed it ran 270 whp and again 275ftlbs. The curve looked like crap at 5k power would just drop. That day was like 20 or less. Despite the ECU being tempermental I would still prefer the gen3 over a gen2. A gen2 is not all that tempermental running close to stock but they do have their moments as well. I've had gen2's running a ct20 with exhaust, intake, downpipe, intercooler and 17 psi run inconsistently as well. Older gen2 setups have bugs as well. I've yet to fool with any type of Ems on my cars but I have friends who have gen3's with the power fc who've never experienced the bugs I have. They live in warmer climates though and this obviously has something to do with it. I highly doubt you'll have issues in Washington. Your altitude and climate are more like japan where gen3's were built to run. I'd be surprised to hear if many people in California have experienced these issues.

[imweip]

Originally Posted by Luni

Dunno.

Again, the car went through one full summer and one full winter on the stock ECU and never once did I really feel it pull timing.

But definately it feels better with the MINES.

Im just saying that in my experience, all things being equal, the Gen2 is more sensitive to any climate change, way more than a gen3.

I think it's because of the dry air out where you are. I know the humidity used to make my car run funky before it warmed up. Sputtering and whatnot, but I used to go start my car every morning before packing up lunch, etc. So it had about 10 minutes to warm up idling.

[Luni]

Dude, me and 47mr2s live in the same place.

[Luni]

But in the end its about preference.

I still stick with the other guys who say Gen3s just feel better.

I just think its a better engine overall. Its a matter of preference. Borinal has a Gen3. I have a Gen2. Both of our cars run great and if I had a CT20b Id prolly be close to as fast as him, or faster, but I still like his engine better than mine. It just feels smoother. I dunno. I just like the Gen3. Ive driven several Gen2 MR2s. I just prefer the Gen3. And I think thats pretty much what the other guys with Gen3s will say. It just FEELS like a better engine.

[imweip]

Originally Posted by kblake

Actually, our TD06 combo #1 gets the Gen 2 to 300+ quite easily. It includes everything needed, except for ic, exhaust and boost controller for 300-310RWHP on pump gas for $3150. By the time you pay the extra money for the gen3, and then buy the fuel pump and turbo kit, you're at least the cost of our combo kit. Then you have to deal with the lean issues that the Gen 3 experiences when modded, because it's speed/density, and can't detect/compensate for the modifications you've done.

Ken

Why get a turbo kit? I thought the ct20b was capable of 300hp. I'm sure you'd have to upgrade the fuel pump, exhaust, IC, and boost controller. What else needs to be done? Why switch turbos? I liked my ct20b...

[47mr2's]

Originally Posted by imweip

Why get a turbo kit? I thought the ct20b was capable of 300hp. I'm sure you'd have to upgrade the fuel pump, exhaust, IC, and boost controller. What else needs to be done? Why switch turbos? I liked my ct20b...

The gen3 is capable of more than 300 whp without replacing the turbo. You will need the usual plus fuel and some type of tuning. An SAFC will do the job but I'd rather go Ems. You will be pushing the ct20 to its' near limit but it can be done. I feelthat the ct20 is a fairly fragile turbo beyond 16 psi but it is capable of 20. A friend claimed he made 340whp @ 20 psi with usual bolt ons on his gen3 plus tuning at sea level. I beleive it is possible and heis a very reliable source. The car was tuned by Noshoes.

[47mr2's]

Originally Posted by Luni

But in the end its about preference.

I still stick with the other guys who say Gen3s just feel better.

I just think its a better engine overall. Its a matter of preference. Borinal has a Gen3. I have a Gen2. Both of our cars run great and if I had a CT20b Id prolly be close to as fast as him, or faster, but I still like his engine better than mine. It just feels smoother. I dunno. I just like the Gen3. Ive driven several Gen2 MR2s. I just prefer the Gen3. And I think thats pretty much what the other guys with Gen3s will say. It just FEELS like a better engine.

I'm not here to poopon your parade but a gen2 with a ct20 still won't hang with a gen3. I've had both and I promise it won't happen unless there were other things done to the gen2 that weren't done to the gen3.

[47mr2's]

Originally Posted by kblake

Actually, our TD06 combo #1 gets the Gen 2 to 300+ quite easily. It includes everything needed, except for ic, exhaust and boost controller for 300-310RWHP on pump gas for $3150. By the time you pay the extra money for the gen3, and then buy the fuel pump and turbo kit, you're at least the cost of our combo kit. Then you have to deal with the lean issues that the Gen 3 experiences when modded, because it's speed/density, and can't detect/compensate for the modifications you've done.

Ken

We all know you love the gen2. It's totally understandable. You've done lots with yours and made good power with it. If I wouldn't have owned a few gen3's I'd feel the same way. I know it's your job but damn. Does every thread you get in on have to contain an ATS Racing advertisement? ATS makes some good products but that is half off the reason I'm on this board instead. It is controlled by sponsors and Celeberity moderators. They seek recognition for the number times they post and how much more they know than anyone. Some of us don't have the time or desire to be online 24/7 bragging about what we know.

[imweip]

Originally Posted by kblake

people in the community (board politics aside, we're all one community) have done more with Gen 2's than Gen 3's, and that will change slowly, if at all. The board OWNER of THIS board is a die hard Gen 2 fan, and has experienced owning both motors.

I don't know that I'd call him a die hard gen2 fan. I think that might have been before he drove my car. I know he was telling me he that he's been wanting a gen3 in his silver car for a couple years. Now he keeps flip flopping. His track car is going to be a gen 3. At least this is what he told me in person a few weeks ago when I visited my old car in Atlanta. To me a die hard fan of something wouldn't consider the alternative for anything of his own. You wouldn't see a die hard FL gators fan rooting for the Seminoles would you?
I have respect for the Gen2. I think if going for high HP is your goal, it's possibly the best choice. I just think that for 300hp+- ish the gen3 is perfect. Its the Newer version of the 3s, why wouldn't it be? I know the turbo is fragile at high boost, but it pulls so smooth. The difference between a gen2 and gen3 is quite astounding. The Gen2 throws you back in the seat much more than the gen3, but the gen3 is actually faster. For personal reasons, that is awesome for me. I have all kinds of weird injuries from the accidents I've been in (3 times I've been in a 45mph+ accident of someone else's fault), and riding or driving in a car that unnecessarily jerks my head around makes my neck sore. The Gen3 I owned was the fastest car I've been in that didn't make my neck sore. I'm sold.

[47mr2's]

Originally Posted by kblake

Actually, I love MR2's. All flavors, even the Gen 3 powered ones. I had my 88NA for 5 years, only a year less than I had my 93T. I still love that car. It's probably my favorite, of all the MR2's I've owned. Never gave me a day of trouble for 5 years/70k miles. My sister has had it for the past 8, and has yet to have any serious problems with it, despite the fact that it's fast approaching 20 years since it's date of manufacture.

The vast majority of MR2 turbo owners in the U.S. have gen 2's. How many of your 47 MR2's were Gen 2? I'm going to hazard a guess, and say "most of them".
A lot more people in the community (board politics aside, we're all one community) have done more with Gen 2's than Gen 3's, and that will change slowly, if at all. The board OWNER of THIS board is a die hard Gen 2 fan, and has experienced owning both motors.



Actually, it's my hobby. It gives me something to do while I'm raising the kids, until they are old enough for school. ATS couldn't afford me full time, nor could any of the other board sponsors, here or on OC. It wasn't an advertisement. Luni made a fallacious statement, and I corrected him.



That's B.S.
The sponsors get moderated just as much as the next guy over there, probably more, because the attitude is that WE should know better, whereas the average member who hasn't been around as long tends to get the benefit of the doubt. The reason there are more "celebrities" over there, is because the board has been around longer, and so there are more members who are long standing members of the community, who pioneered many of the modifications and developed many of the parts that are taken for granted today.

The purpose of this thread was to discuss the relative strengths and weaknesses of the Gen 2 motor vs. the Gen 3 motor. People are obviously going to champion whichever engine they decided to go with. Most people put their ego where they spent their money. Some people (myself included) lack equivalent experience with both motors. The best I can do is point out the strengths of the Gen 2 motor, while people like DavidV (who has little or no experience with the Gen 2) champion the Gen 3. An educated reader can read both sides, and make an informed decision, and the thread's purpose will have been served.

My limited experience with the Gen 3, and threads like this one have actually changed my opinion slightly, to the point that I now recommend a Gen 3 swap in some cases, particularly in cases like Matt's, where the person is going from a 5SFE to a 3SGTE, and doesn't plan to go beyond BPU. At the "2 the Beach" meet, in Ocean Shores, WA this past September, I actually talked Lyle Beach out of a Gen 2 swap, and into a Gen 3 swap. From what I hear, he has subsequently purchased a Gen 3 clip, and had Kris from KO Racing install it.

Ken

Yes many of the mr2's I've owned were gen2. I think gen2's were around 35 and gen1's around 15. I am up to 50 at this point. I figured I had to get that far. The main reason was not so much preference but more from an investment standpoint. The gen2's were easy to resell and make a few. Another reason is the fact that I was 18 when I got my first Mr2 it was an 85 and this was in 1992. I wasn't exactly loaded then. I just aquired another 1st gen to be my last. They are very fun and confidence inspiring at the limit. As far as sponsors running the other board you can't deny it. Sponsors are pretty much untouchable. Not to mention the fact that everyone jumps on their band wagon to protect them. It is a pretty close minded board. No one is really open to any new ideas.This has been proven over and over. Gen3 discussions are a prime example of this. I don't even bother to chime in on anything over there anymore. Everytime I have someone who has more posts than me jumps down my throat. What could I possibly have to offer? Guys who just got gen3's a year ago know way more about them than I do. Yet some of the gen3 experts contacted me back in 99 when I was selling one through xcars. There are many people who know more than I do about mr2's. I am at least open minded and realize I don't have all the answers. I certainly don't judge credibility by the number of posts a member has. The only thing I do on the oc is buy parts.

[Ncturnal]

Originally Posted by kblake

A lot more people in the community (board politics aside, we're all one community) have done more with Gen 2's than Gen 3's, and that will change slowly, if at all. The board OWNER of THIS board is a die hard Gen 2 fan, and has experienced owning both motors.

Slight correction with that one...He's a die hard fan of the Gen 3, but opted to stay with the Gen 2 due to parts availabability after having problematic experiences with his first Gen 3. He presently has 4 Gen 3 motors in his stable. He sees both sides of the table though, and understands the whole debate is moot. The "best" option will vary depending on what you are looking for, what your goals are, and your financial position.

[bugalu]

personal opinion having owned 4 mr2 turbos 2 with usdm gen 2's and 2 with gen 3's, consdering i see no point in a street car with more than 400 whp the gen 3 is my pick. it does not have the same flow bottleneck at the intake and tb the gen 2 has, and slightly lower compression making it a little more resistant to detonation. but we will see if my car makes the #'s i think it will.

[Tyler H]

Lemme put it like this. If you have a capable MR2 chassis and want to spend $5k to make your car go fast, in any condition, indefinitely, without constant twiddling with stuff...there is one option.


BTW...its Gen3

[Martin]

i'm a huge fan of the gen3. Love everything about it. I even think it looks way better than a gen2 motor.


Martin

[PETC]

You fanboi Martin.

Is your car done man?

[Martin]

Originally Posted by PETC

You fanboi Martin.

Is your car done man?

lol, it's been done since may 05.



I'm the Martin from Toronto Canada, u may be thinking of the Martin from Washington, with the gen3 swap in progress.

Martin