Gen3 Debate

[TreyMR2]

sweet my goal was around 350-400 too, then when I get tired of that I wanna just rebuild the whole thing for like 550 but thats a long way down the road.

[sickof5sfe]

yeah...i wanna keep the car streetable and have enough power to pull on street competion (ps im not a street racer)...and run good 1/4 mile times as well as time attack times

[boostd4]

Take it from people who have had both, and modded both...

Me
----
1) Stock gen2 with TD06
2) Built gen2 stroker with SB46 and GT28RS
3) Stock Gen3 with GT28RS

The gen3 is better in everyway except possibly peak power potential against the built stroker I had. It's just much smoother, no vacuum leak issues, rock solid idle no matter what, no bucky throttle transitions, EVER... etc..

John Santesson (sp?)
-----------------
1) Built stroker gen2 with SB50 (probably had others before that..)
2) Stock Gen3 with SB50

Has said several times that he prefers the driveability and response of the Gen3, even against his stroker..

Justin311
----------
Several built gen2's (? .. I know he had at LEAST one, and few stock ones)
Gen3 with TD06 on E85..

Justin has said he was definitely impressed with the gen3 and has pursued that engine ever since..

It may not be easy to put into words.. I tried, but it's not like we're a bunch of NA guys who have never had a turbo motor and have to justify our gen3 pricetag... ****... my built gen2 cost me $5500 just for the longblock... my entire gen3 rear halfcut was only $3500.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by boostd4

Justin311
----------
Several built gen2's (? .. I know he had at LEAST one, and few stock ones)
Gen3 with TD06 on E85..

Justin has said he was definitely impressed with the gen3 and has pursued that engine ever since..

He also said that he never would've got one had he not gotten it for free (or for the most part free, as part of a trade from someone that owed him money).

Would he honestly give up a gen2 to buy a stock gen3...?

[boostd4]

IMO, it's irrelevant how he got it, if in the end he was more impressed with it than the gen2...

[Ncturnal]

My first MR2 had a Gen 3 and I loved it. I've had many since (including a 470 HP Gen 2) and I'm going back with a Gen 3 in my silver MR2 to replace the Gen 2 that was in it. The Gen 3 is an impressive setup. It's too bad we never got them here.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by boostd4

IMO, it's irrelevant how he got it, if in the end he was more impressed with it than the gen2...

My point is, would he still get a gen3 if he still get a gen2...not HOW he got his gen3.

Being impressed might not be enough to convert a perfectly good, running gen2 for a gen3. I know it's not enough of a reason for me.

[mister3]

Originally Posted by Sang

My point is, would he still get a gen3 if he still get a gen2...not HOW he got his gen3.

Being impressed might not be enough to convert a perfectly good, running gen2 for a gen3. I know it's not enough of a reason for me.

could look at it this way:

if you have a gen2 powered MR2 and are looking for a cheaper way to get 300-400whp then swapping in a gen3 might be a viable option.

EBAY gen2 prices are around $2,000 shipped for a motorset (best for replacements and not swaps)

gen2 1991 full swap/clip $2250
gen2 93 w/LSD clip or full swap $2750
gen3 clip or full swap $3750

replacement JDM 3sgte $1400
CRW rebuilt longblocks start at $3200

if you already have a turbo car there are plenty of ways to offset the cost of the gen3 conversion:

sell: body wiring harness, axles, stubshafts, trans, longblock, turbo, engine wiring harness, sensors, ECU. those parts alone could bring the gen3 to a more attainable level and you'll still have all the benefits of the upgraded gen3 engine.

but at the end of that day if you're looking for 400+whp stick with the gen2 OR if the car is your ONLY mode of transportation and you need it running... gen3 parts can be harder to source and more time consuming + expensive to purchase. imagine waiting 3+ months if you can't find a MAP sensor.... or when the CT20b ceramic turbine wheel busts on you......... have seen these "ingested" and ruin the entire engine!

[boostd4]

Originally Posted by Sang

My point is, would he still get a gen3 if he still get a gen2...not HOW he got his gen3.

Being impressed might not be enough to convert a perfectly good, running gen2 for a gen3. I know it's not enough of a reason for me.

??? No one in this thread is talking about pulling a good running Gen2 in order to go Gen3... .we're talking about buying a swap.. it's assumed that you NEED the swap because you're either NA or blown up turbo... I only referenced Justin for his opinion of the two, not the circumstances around them.

[Sang]

Originally Posted by boostd4

??? No one in this thread is talking about pulling a good running Gen2 in order to go Gen3... .we're talking about buying a swap.. it's assumed that you NEED the swap because you're either NA or blown up turbo...

Nothing is assumed...

My take from reading this overly drawn out thread is swapping in a gen3...regardless of where you are coming from. NA, blown up gen2, or perfectly running gen2, et cetera.

And the last 2-3 pages specifically talks about going from gen2 to gen3.

[TreyMR2]

The way I look at it the Gen3 is a better starting platform hand down but I wouldn't go threw all the trouble unless either you just need something to do or your old motor is trashed. IMO the Gen3 platform is just flat out better than the Gen2 so the debate should be, "what circumstances make keeping your Gen2 better than going Gen3". I mean I wouldn't put out an unreasonable amount of money to go Gen3 when I could just put a turbo kit on a Gen2 or something. Personally though I'm never going to be in that situation since I had a n/a and I just wanted something that was better in stock form and if I ever do another MR2 I'm sold on the Gen3 platform.

[boostd4]

My bad then, I didn't think anyone was that financially irresponsible (or just plain dumb) to spend $4000 on a gen3 when they have a running gen2. That just doesn't make sense... For $2500 you can make your gen3 effectively a gen2 (but better, with EMS)... I'm really stunned that there has been 5 pages of talk about pulling a good gen2 to go gen3.... wild.

[sickof5sfe]

Originally Posted by boostd4

My bad then, I didn't think anyone was that financially irresponsible (or just plain dumb) to spend $4000 on a gen3 when they have a running gen2. That just doesn't make sense... For $2500 you can make your gen3 effectively a gen2 (but better, with EMS)... I'm really stunned that there has been 5 pages of talk about pulling a good gen2 to go gen3.... wild.

ha thats what i said...but theres enough ppl on the board that have done it

[TreyMR2]

Yeah most of the Gen3's I saw where N/A's that had seen better days. My car was a 91 N/A with 232,000 miles on it and a horrible rod knock. Also the transmission gridded 3rd gear all the time.

[boostd4]

whoops... I suppose I should admit that my gen2 was running okay when I swapped to gen3..

In my specific case, my plans changed greatly. My fully built stroker just didn't play nice with the oem gen2 ecu. I decided i wanted <=350 whp but flawless driveability. I also had a failing 92 non LSD trans. I sold the bare built long block for $4700 and bought a gen3 clip with $800 leftover. After selling off the clip goodies I had about $2500 left that went into other parts of the car. I've never regretted it.

[patchmasterdoom]

Originally Posted by Nacho

I've had an MR2 for over 2 years now, been racing Toyotas for 2 as well. I've been modding and racing Hondas for the 3 years previous to that. Does my broader knowledge base regarding cars than yours somehow detract from my credibility?

And may I ask, how much time have you spent at actual race tracks? You know, ones that don't go straight. Since you seem to have this massive bias against Hondas and feel they're inferior, I wonder if you know about the wealth of real-world, race tested knoweldge their community has aquired over the years. I welcome you to check out the road race/autoX section of Honda Tech some time.

I have to agree. I raced an Integra before I got my MR2. I love my 2, but I still and always will, bleed Type-R red.

[MuMan]

Originally Posted by patchmasterdoom

I have to agree. I raced an Integra before I got my MR2. I love my 2, but I still and always will, bleed Type-R red.

Can't believe this is still going..don't worry about Honda bashing, talks cheap.

When someone posts up a real comparision between a stock Gen3 & a Gen2 that's been optioned up with a Ct20b, higher boost, more aggressive intake timing/lift, a working T-Vis, less restrictive downpipe, better intake, D-tronic ECU & a MAP based load sensor..and, can still justify a Gen3 swap..I'll listen.

[Luni]

Im running gen3 electronics on a gen2 and its MUCH better than the gen2 controls are. The car is more responsive, it transitions from vac to boost better, Pretty much everthing is better but maybe peak power. I think I might have lost a LITTLE peak power and gained some midrange (this is just what the butt dyno says, I have no scientific proof).

I will say this overall. I will never run my stock gen2 electronics again. They are utter garbage compared to the gen3 stuff, or compared to a properly tuned standalone (which makes my gen3 stuff I tout so highly look like garbage).

That also being said, the price of the conversion was worth it to me. And at about 600 dollars, and the gen3 stuff being roughly a grand more than the gen2 stuff, I think the gen3 engine as a whole is worth it.

Im also running a 20b, and the 540cc injectors, etc. My engine feels good. It runs great. The ECU would never know it wasnt on the engine it was designed for, but the gen3 engine is just such better designed than the gen2, its worth it. Hell just the turbo and the ECU/electronics are worth it. Not to mention the intake manifold and oiling system which are superior. Not even to mention the head.

And I would pull my properly running gen2 to swap to a gen3, cause you can sell your gen2, recoup expenses (not all but some), and make it relatively on the cheap to switch to gen3 if you want.

As I sit right now. Im already swapped. I just need a gen3 longblock with manifolds.

[MuMan]

Totally agree, stock vs stock, the Gen3 is way ahead, but why wouldn't it be.
That's the whole point..for a drop in, hassle free 300whp capable swap, you'd be mad not to choose a Gen3, given a choice...without the need to do much to it.
But the point is, all the issues with the Gen2 have been addressed in some way, such as steel compression rings, water cooling mods, lower compression, better fuel system, JDM Ign/EFT specs, better electronics, more capable turbo, higher boost, better intake cam..etc etc.
I suspect the T-Vis was flicked as a cost cutting exercise, and don't see the Gen3 intake runner sizing as more than a compromise.

The point being, should you do all that with aftermarked add-ons to a typical USDM Gen2, apart from spending a truck load of cash, your not going to be disadvantaged at all..far from it.. and lets face it, that's where a comparison lies..apples vs apples.
So if your at that level already, where's the sense in pulling a perfectly good engine to swap in a Gen3? or as a platform for a high output 3SGTE, why would you consider a Gen3 to be any better than a Gen2?
When you start pulling all those OEM upgrades off and spending cash, the $3.5K you spent on the swap starts looking less attractive.

I think the original discussion was.. is the Gen3 a better engine, well like everything, that's relative..if you want a nice power upgrade in a neat OEM package..then of course it is, but anything more serious than that..I very much doubt it.

Anyhow, that's how I see it.
Hey Ken..you have a great new Year too..

[Luni]

When toyota dumped TVIS they compensated for it.

Gen3 head has larger intake runners and smaller head ports. The air velocity increases as it enters the head and thats how they do it on the gen3.

Gen2 head has smaller intake runners and larger head ports. Its a proven fact the gen2 head outflows the gen3 head by a small margin. Toyota increased the velocity of the air going in with tvis to increase torque.

The gen3 also has different timing curves to help out with torque/spool as well. I havent seemed to lose spool on my gen2 engine by running gen3 electronics.

If I was going to build an engine, Id prolly start with a gen2 since I have one. I still disagree that it isnt worth pulling a "perfectly" good gen2 for a good gen3. Id trade mine for a gen3 in a heartbeat.