help! its bad...and im lost

basel_520 · 03-13-2009, 11:07 PM

so recently got me a 86 mr2 with a 4a-ge....i removed the throttle body and intake manifold and the tvis butterflies.....cleaned them out and reinstalled it all ....with fuel injectors from a 2.0l camry.....

when i try to rev the engine it hits a wall at around 3k rpm...if i hold it at WOT it hesitates at 3k and then zips up to redline.... its shooting out a very pale brown smoke out the exhaust, and white smoke is coming out of the engine bay..... i think the catalitic converter is the source of the smoke... but i dont know if its the only place the smoke is from..it doesnt smell like burnt oil...

appreciate you guys helps.. im clueless...

oh yah, when i got her i drove her for about a week, ran good, a little rich and one injector that wasnt spraying right..thats why i changed the injectors...screwed myself by changing them all out me think.

Ray-088 · 03-13-2009, 11:27 PM

did you happen to take out your afm? tahts what happened to me when i did the intake mod wrong. my car hit the wall at around 3-3.5 k and had no power.

basel_520 · 03-13-2009, 11:34 PM

er, whats a afm??

basel_520 · 03-13-2009, 11:36 PM

oh the air flow sensor?...yeah i did a intake mod...but its back in there.....ill check it though but im pretty sure i put it all back in right..

Ray-088 · 03-13-2009, 11:37 PM

did you unscrew the 2 bolts or did you take the clip out? cause i unscrewed the bolts and effed up the internals (N) and thats what was causing my car to hit the wall

basel_520 · 03-13-2009, 11:57 PM

i dont know what 2 bolts of clip ur talking about....so now i didnt mess with them....i just went an checked...checked the contacts started the motor with the afm unplugged.....let it die and nd replugged it....its running better now and theres less of a wall there..less smoke...better response....but still not driveable

but i did notice a puddle of gas under the fuel rail...something i thought id fixed for the 3rd and last time last night...but its back... im gonna have to just go and get a injector seal set and fix that...although all the seals ive got look fine....well the orings anyway.... maybe im reinstalling them wrong....or something like that

edit: the afm has had a couple hard knocks when it was out.....bad?

Ray-088 · 03-14-2009, 12:08 AM

lol the proper way of removing the AFM is to unclip the metal piece holding it

, the mistake i made was unscrewing the 2 bolts instead and ripping out the internals, i was just asking if you made teh same mistake as me, but since you are seeing fuel maybe its not about the afm.. im a noob to mr2's so dont quote me lol

basel_520 · 03-14-2009, 12:16 AM

oh u mean those 2 screws....i romoved those.....but it worked fine without em....ill check it...again just in case....well tomorow..when im hung over...im a noob 2....ive always been doing chevys and suzi bikes..and s2ks....toyotas are new to me...

ebouwman · 03-14-2009, 01:18 AM

turn the car on then run around and see where it's leaking.

When i did my head gasket i didn't get the fuel pulsation damper on there good enough and it leaked enough that it threw the mix WAY off and it was missing and sputtering. I tightened it and still leaked, so what i did was use an O ring as a washer between the fuel rail and the banjo fitting or whatever that thing is called.

So really any leak will cause that, and that most likely is your problem.

EDIT: although probably not the pulsation damper like me, probably the injector seal like you said, or cold start injector.

There is a way to test the air flow meter using an electrical tester or something, and you measure the resistance between two wires when the afm flap is all the way open, and when it's closed.

And by hung over, do you mean drunk? Lol

basel_520 · 03-19-2009, 01:30 PM

ok...replaced the injector seals ..by that i mean those bastard o-rings on the top of the fuel injectors...no visible leaks... i dont know what u mean by banjo whatever..

i got out of my car 5 mins ago after holding up traffic in northridge...most of the time itll rev up to 2k rpms and then lose power back down to idle then rinse and repeat.. BUT sometimes itll just clear up and run like nothing happened....

ive been checking and rechecking all wiring plugs....even ones i didnt check...

and i dont think its the cold start injector...its the same when warm..

ok i did take out the fuel rail feed line...and destroyed one of those bronze gaskets...think put it back in with just 1 gasket... no leaks but what do you think?

and no by hungover i mean was drunk but that didnt happen

ebouwman · 03-19-2009, 01:51 PM

you got out of your car in traffic!?!?!?!?!

I have heard of people saying that sometimes loose particles in your cat can fly up and clog the exit under specific rpm, that could be the issue.

Oh and ya i was looking at the time of the post 9:16 pacific time (my local time) and was thinking, jeeze how is he hungover when it's 9 at night, or later!

HoLun · 03-19-2009, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basel_520

cleaned them out and reinstalled it all ....with fuel injectors from a 2.0l camry.....

and you are seriously asking why your car doesn't run right?

get a set of 4AG injectors and try again, or get yourself a standalone adjustable ECU.

basel_520 · 03-20-2009, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoLun

and you are seriously asking why your car doesn't run right?

get a set of 4AG injectors and try again, or get yourself a standalone adjustable ECU.

i was under the impression that the ecu is pretty smart when it came to adjusting fuel air mix sure the stock ecu never does it ur way but it does it some way....i mean the injectors did look identical

so i figured it out...i started disconnecting things one at a time and seeing what would happen...4th try tps that nazi. yanked the tps out and got a 300% improvement....

drove around and now im seriously thinking did they put the tps in there just so it can break then you have to pay toyota for a new one to fix it... i really really dont see why you need one but you can use urs all you want...i cant afford a new one yet...and when i can im buying something else

and i didnt get out of my car IN traffic i was driving up to my friends house to wake him up for school 5 hours early i just took a while to get get there

edit: thanx for the help btw, i was convinced it was mechanical at first

HoLun · 03-20-2009, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by basel_520

i was under the impression that the ecu is pretty smart when it came to adjusting fuel air mix sure the stock ecu never does it ur way but it does it some way....i mean the injectors did look identical

so i figured it out...i started disconnecting things one at a time and seeing what would happen...4th try tps that nazi. yanked the tps out and got a 300% improvement....

drove around and now im seriously thinking did they put the tps in there just so it can break then you have to pay toyota for a new one to fix it... i really really dont see why you need one but you can use urs all you want...i cant afford a new one yet...and when i can im buying something else

and i didnt get out of my car IN traffic i was driving up to my friends house to wake him up for school 5 hours early i just took a while to get get there

edit: thanx for the help btw, i was convinced it was mechanical at first

TPS is important part for the ECU to cauclate load and accel enrichment, keep driving it like that and you will need an new engine eventually, because with an incorrect load, timing and fueling will be off, i am not even sure the ecu will go to closed loop without a TPS, meaning you will run rich, all the time with the upsized injector.

Test your TPS according to the BGB, if its bad replacement is only about 70 dollars from the dealer.

the ECU can compensate for a small amount here and there, not a drastic change, and just that a part looks similar on the outside doesnt mean its the same, injector flow requirment is different between a 2.0L and 1.6, and you can be sure that the engine is running rich. also the injectors could have different resistance value and lag time, these are not air flow sensing device like carburetors, everything is pre programmed into the ecu, with the specific sensor and injectors, if you change one parameter, ie, AFM spring tension, injector size, you just put everything out of range, the pre programmed value in the ECU is no longer valid, so you really cant just swap in some injector from different engines and expect it to perform correctly.

you see a lot of guys swapping bigger injectors in for turbo'd 4age and call it good, and thats a half ass way to tune a car, because you are never on boost 100% of the time you are not using the added capacity of the injector when you are off boost, and thats 80% of the time. over fueling will kill an engine over time by diluting the oil with fuel and wipe out the bearing, and wear out rings.

basel_520 · 03-20-2009, 09:38 AM

ok...ill try to find a tps at a junkyard ill try to find one off another car thatll work coz i couldnt find any junked mr2s locally.. dealer trying to charge me $250 plus tax for it

took it to the canyon today...oveheated on the way down ..it was steep so i was just engine braking,,... didnt notice till it was way in the red....im hoping theres no permenent damage.. let it cool refilled with water drove home everything is fine

theres no signs of water in my oil or vice versa.. any insight on the engine braking/overheating issue? maybe tps related?...er

hpw can i tell whether im running rich or not... as far as i can see there is zero visible smoke coming out the tailpipe so.... enlighten me

i dont need this engine to last forever...just idk another 50,000 miles.. im moving to kuwait soon and hoping to get a brand new motor in

ebouwman · 03-20-2009, 02:59 PM

um i kinda ignored the injector thing because i thought you knew what you were doing and i kinda assumed they were the same as the 4age if you'd swapped them in, so i just shut my mouth on that one because i don't mess with that stuff so i don't know

One way to kinda see if your running rich is that lots of the time you can smell it in the exhaust, now i'm not saying you should stick your nose in the tailpipe and sniff, but usually you can kind of smell it.

And if your running rich you SHOULD NOT be overheating, me-thinks you're running lean, which can be equally bad or worse depending on how lean it is, basically it can cause detonation, aka pinging.

You are killing your car, get it fixed!!!

HoLun · 03-20-2009, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebouwman

um i kinda ignored the injector thing because i thought you knew what you were doing and i kinda assumed they were the same as the 4age if you'd swapped them in, so i just shut my mouth on that one because i don't mess with that stuff so i don't know

One way to kinda see if your running rich is that lots of the time you can smell it in the exhaust, now i'm not saying you should stick your nose in the tailpipe and sniff, but usually you can kind of smell it.

And if your running rich you SHOULD NOT be overheating, me-thinks you're running lean, which can be equally bad or worse depending on how lean it is, basically it can cause detonation, aka pinging.

You are killing your car, get it fixed!!!

over retarded ignition timing can also cause overheating.
like I said , no TPS is a bad idea.

basel_520 · 03-20-2009, 10:09 PM

confuuused.... i thought lean= hot, adavance timing=hot, rich/retard=not so hot??

a friend suggested resetting the cam timing...but there is no space to do that with the motor still in there.

car doesnt sound like its dieing...but.. ok ill just have to go get a recycled tps...maybe i should mention the tps had water on the connector pins..i didnt think that would mess with it but i read a few threads about how the mr2 hates water...so its dry now ill test it

basel_520 · 03-21-2009, 04:35 PM

ok...thanx everyone..no more hand holding now...except for getting to the timing belt...is it doable or do i need to pull the block/?

ebouwman · 03-22-2009, 01:08 AM

the timing belt is totally doable with the engine in the car, it's a bit annoying to do, but i'm pretty sure every engine's timing belt is a bitch.

Over retarded ignition timing can cause overheating? Or do you mean over advanced? Over advanced sound more logical to me, but i don't really know i don't mess with timing.

Oh and basel, i'd get the injectors fixed as a top priority over getting a new tps, it's possible you can still use the old one, and that you just need to run the right injectors.

And you can't really set your cam timing, unless it's off by a tooth, or your timing belt has stretched, in which case you can't just set the cam timing. And the cam timing were off by a whole tooth on the timing belt then you would have noticed it running quite rough from what i understand. Not saying you shouldn't change the timing belt though.

03-13-2009, 11:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	help! its bad...and im lost so recently got me a 86 mr2 with a 4a-ge....i removed the throttle body and intake manifold and the tvis butterflies.....cleaned them out and reinstalled it all ....with fuel injectors from a 2.0l camry..... when i try to rev the engine it hits a wall at around 3k rpm...if i hold it at WOT it hesitates at 3k and then zips up to redline.... its shooting out a very pale brown smoke out the exhaust, and white smoke is coming out of the engine bay..... i think the catalitic converter is the source of the smoke... but i dont know if its the only place the smoke is from..it doesnt smell like burnt oil... appreciate you guys helps.. im clueless... oh yah, when i got her i drove her for about a week, ran good, a little rich and one injector that wasnt spraying right..thats why i changed the injectors...screwed myself by changing them all out me think. Last edited by basel_520; 03-13-2009 at 11:19 PM.

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03-13-2009, 11:27 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ray-088 Some Skills Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 89 Thanks: 13 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	did you happen to take out your afm? tahts what happened to me when i did the intake mod wrong. my car hit the wall at around 3-3.5 k and had no power.

03-13-2009, 11:34 PM	#3 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	er, whats a afm??

03-13-2009, 11:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	oh the air flow sensor?...yeah i did a intake mod...but its back in there.....ill check it though but im pretty sure i put it all back in right..

03-13-2009, 11:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
Ray-088 Some Skills Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 89 Thanks: 13 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	did you unscrew the 2 bolts or did you take the clip out? cause i unscrewed the bolts and effed up the internals (N) and thats what was causing my car to hit the wall

03-13-2009, 11:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	i dont know what 2 bolts of clip ur talking about....so now i didnt mess with them....i just went an checked...checked the contacts started the motor with the afm unplugged.....let it die and nd replugged it....its running better now and theres less of a wall there..less smoke...better response....but still not driveable but i did notice a puddle of gas under the fuel rail...something i thought id fixed for the 3rd and last time last night...but its back... im gonna have to just go and get a injector seal set and fix that...although all the seals ive got look fine....well the orings anyway.... maybe im reinstalling them wrong....or something like that edit: the afm has had a couple hard knocks when it was out.....bad?

03-14-2009, 12:08 AM	#7 (permalink)
Ray-088 Some Skills Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 89 Thanks: 13 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	lol the proper way of removing the AFM is to unclip the metal piece holding it , the mistake i made was unscrewing the 2 bolts instead and ripping out the internals, i was just asking if you made teh same mistake as me, but since you are seeing fuel maybe its not about the afm.. im a noob to mr2's so dont quote me lol

03-14-2009, 12:16 AM	#8 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	oh u mean those 2 screws....i romoved those.....but it worked fine without em....ill check it...again just in case....well tomorow..when im hung over...im a noob 2....ive always been doing chevys and suzi bikes..and s2ks....toyotas are new to me...

03-14-2009, 01:18 AM	#9 (permalink)
ebouwman Curve Hugger Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 1,390 Thanks: 18 Thanked 48 Times in 48 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	turn the car on then run around and see where it's leaking. When i did my head gasket i didn't get the fuel pulsation damper on there good enough and it leaked enough that it threw the mix WAY off and it was missing and sputtering. I tightened it and still leaked, so what i did was use an O ring as a washer between the fuel rail and the banjo fitting or whatever that thing is called. So really any leak will cause that, and that most likely is your problem. EDIT: although probably not the pulsation damper like me, probably the injector seal like you said, or cold start injector. There is a way to test the air flow meter using an electrical tester or something, and you measure the resistance between two wires when the afm flap is all the way open, and when it's closed. And by hung over, do you mean drunk? Lol

03-19-2009, 01:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	ok...replaced the injector seals ..by that i mean those bastard o-rings on the top of the fuel injectors...no visible leaks... i dont know what u mean by banjo whatever.. i got out of my car 5 mins ago after holding up traffic in northridge...most of the time itll rev up to 2k rpms and then lose power back down to idle then rinse and repeat.. BUT sometimes itll just clear up and run like nothing happened.... ive been checking and rechecking all wiring plugs....even ones i didnt check... and i dont think its the cold start injector...its the same when warm.. ok i did take out the fuel rail feed line...and destroyed one of those bronze gaskets...think put it back in with just 1 gasket... no leaks but what do you think? and no by hungover i mean was drunk but that didnt happen

03-19-2009, 01:51 PM	#11 (permalink)
ebouwman Curve Hugger Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 1,390 Thanks: 18 Thanked 48 Times in 48 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	you got out of your car in traffic!?!?!?!?! I have heard of people saying that sometimes loose particles in your cat can fly up and clog the exit under specific rpm, that could be the issue. Oh and ya i was looking at the time of the post 9:16 pacific time (my local time) and was thinking, jeeze how is he hungover when it's 9 at night, or later!

03-20-2009, 09:38 AM	#15 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	ok...ill try to find a tps at a junkyard ill try to find one off another car thatll work coz i couldnt find any junked mr2s locally.. dealer trying to charge me $250 plus tax for it took it to the canyon today...oveheated on the way down ..it was steep so i was just engine braking,,... didnt notice till it was way in the red....im hoping theres no permenent damage.. let it cool refilled with water drove home everything is fine theres no signs of water in my oil or vice versa.. any insight on the engine braking/overheating issue? maybe tps related?...er hpw can i tell whether im running rich or not... as far as i can see there is zero visible smoke coming out the tailpipe so.... enlighten me i dont need this engine to last forever...just idk another 50,000 miles.. im moving to kuwait soon and hoping to get a brand new motor in

03-20-2009, 02:59 PM	#16 (permalink)
ebouwman Curve Hugger Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 1,390 Thanks: 18 Thanked 48 Times in 48 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	um i kinda ignored the injector thing because i thought you knew what you were doing and i kinda assumed they were the same as the 4age if you'd swapped them in, so i just shut my mouth on that one because i don't mess with that stuff so i don't know One way to kinda see if your running rich is that lots of the time you can smell it in the exhaust, now i'm not saying you should stick your nose in the tailpipe and sniff, but usually you can kind of smell it. And if your running rich you SHOULD NOT be overheating, me-thinks you're running lean, which can be equally bad or worse depending on how lean it is, basically it can cause detonation, aka pinging. You are killing your car, get it fixed!!!

03-20-2009, 10:09 PM	#18 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	confuuused.... i thought lean= hot, adavance timing=hot, rich/retard=not so hot?? a friend suggested resetting the cam timing...but there is no space to do that with the motor still in there. car doesnt sound like its dieing...but.. ok ill just have to go get a recycled tps...maybe i should mention the tps had water on the connector pins..i didnt think that would mess with it but i read a few threads about how the mr2 hates water...so its dry now ill test it

03-21-2009, 04:35 PM	#19 (permalink)
basel_520 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	ok...thanx everyone..no more hand holding now...except for getting to the timing belt...is it doable or do i need to pull the block/?

03-22-2009, 01:08 AM	#20 (permalink)
ebouwman Curve Hugger Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 1,390 Thanks: 18 Thanked 48 Times in 48 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	the timing belt is totally doable with the engine in the car, it's a bit annoying to do, but i'm pretty sure every engine's timing belt is a bitch. Over retarded ignition timing can cause overheating? Or do you mean over advanced? Over advanced sound more logical to me, but i don't really know i don't mess with timing. Oh and basel, i'd get the injectors fixed as a top priority over getting a new tps, it's possible you can still use the old one, and that you just need to run the right injectors. And you can't really set your cam timing, unless it's off by a tooth, or your timing belt has stretched, in which case you can't just set the cam timing. And the cam timing were off by a whole tooth on the timing belt then you would have noticed it running quite rough from what i understand. Not saying you shouldn't change the timing belt though.