tie rod and swaybar link question

[8589]

Originally Posted by gold85mr2

can anyone reccomend some good rotors that are less likely to warp?

no flame intended but is getting a Little bit confusing due to loads of knowledge on many "near" subjects not pertaining to the issue described, like: if braking is normal (no vibrations at pedal/steering) replacing rotors will only make for better rotors (just probably) and WILL NOT fix the described problem..replacing steering parts random will only mascared the problem .. a tight front end reduce the effect of a sloppy balance job and or bad tire OR both! even brand new tires are ****** sometimes..unfortunatly this cars are prone to shimmy due to age/no power steering helping absorb vibes; not a chip fix sometimes..also summer tires need a lot of heat to "relax", I just put 4 sumitomos and the car act like a POS from 60 to 70 (front end is old but nothing worn) they redo balance at front n got worst
came home and move one back to front now car 50% better I'm gonna live like that for now to much BS to keep messing around all weekend..you r not alone

[8589]

someone mention bearings, so it only show at 60? i don't think so.

Now let's think together: when this happens to a almost new car 20-30 40+ k miles is ALWAYS tire/balance related!
sometimes the shop re balance other replace/rotate from rear and and the problem goes away..( if the balance machine was fu..p for a week you'll never know)
I recall 1 set of "bad" brand new front tires in a perfect car re-alignment didn't cure car puling to one side another set cure the problem...

the market is inundated with 100 new brand names ...who test them? A. you!

bad new tires is big business for shops, lots of front end work that only mascared the problem.

now the short version: if the car exibit a new problem after installing a tire is tire/balance related; if you expected a new tire will fix an old problem is not the tire.


like when testing a car that fell like **** and the guy will said oh yeah need a tire or alignment (he went bananas already) or the a/c is blowing hot..o yeah needs a shoot(?) of freon, we like the car (is cheap!!) we believe the comments they made... 1000 dollars later A/c is working properly and shimmy is gone after another 1K
what a bargain

[gold85mr2]

well here is an update ofr those who havent read the whole thread. i have gotten the shimmy to stop except for when braking by balancing the tires and removing a bad one. so at this pont i am in need of some descent rotors that are less likely to warp since i just replaced these last year.

[iceNine]

I have an 87 that used to have a set of (cheaper) aftermarket 15 inch wheels with some 3 yr old Nitto "performance" tires. It developed the front end shimmy that many AW11 owners have experienced. It was not noticible up to about 45 mph then became pronounced between 45 and 60 mph then went away again at higher speeds. Got an alignment with wheels rebalanced -- no change. Finally decided that at least one of the wheels was not true and got a new set of tires and Rota wheels (not hub-centric) with balancing -- problem solved. This with original worn out ball joints and tie rods.

[efx]

This is what they look like. I just finished installing them myself. As you can see in the picture they were messed up. I had the same shaking problem at about 60 and up for a while and still do a tiny bit. I had new good year tires put in a year or two back, always balance all four tires. Never go the cheapest on the tires, when I first got the car, the tires where bald, I was on the freeway and was going slow and the plan was to change the tire the next day. To make a long story short, the tire blew up on me on the freeway and broke the side light and messed up the side of the car. I also changed the whole rack and pinion a few years back hoping that would take care of the shaking, but nope. Still get that every now and then, but today I noticed that the tie rods are not evenly screwed on both sides, meaning who ever the guys that did my alignment didn't even bother to check this until I found it now. One side, 21.5 turns to take it out, the passenger side, 9 turns...this may explain a hell of a lot. So I also purchased some bushings today to fix the old front stabilizer bar up front. I'll get that squared away before I take it to get that alignment done again. A new place and hopefully someone that knows what the heck they're doing. All my other bushings and things are okay, so I'll change that front stuff first just to make sure things are cool for the most part.
I need new rotors too since the old ones are low now and I also need to fix that clutch cylinder that's leaking again. Anyone know of a better replacement for this? This is the one pain every now and then. I need something that lasts a bit more. And no I don't have a heavy foot either.
1985 MR2 Front outer tie rods

[q-authority]

Originally Posted by gold85mr2

well here is an update ofr those who havent read the whole thread. i have gotten the shimmy to stop except for when braking by balancing the tires and removing a bad one. so at this pont i am in need of some descent rotors that are less likely to warp since i just replaced these last year.

Congratulations on fixing the high speed shake. That is quite common on the AW11, especially since the front end is so light. Good tires and a good 4 wheel balance job are crucial to these cars. The idiot who told you that you didn't need to balance a tire because it was going on the rear is exactly that, an idiot.

Regarding the brake rotor warping: all rotors will warp eventually, unless maybe you never brake above 20 mph or so. Unfortunately, oem rotors are the best, but probably not the cheapest. I've tried several types over the years, and none have worked as well as the oem units. Additionally, the oem rotors are also lighter than after market units as well (usually about 1-1.5 lbs lighter ea.), and that includes cross drilled and slotted rotors, which means those were even heavier before they were drilled or slotted. The manufacturers mostly all claim to use stock rotors for their production, but that is a load of cr*p. So if you can afford oem rotors buy them as they will also lower your unsprung weight on the wheel. With stock type brake pads you should probably get at least 40-60k out of after market rotors before any slight warpage, and probably another 20-40k out of oem rotors. High performance brake pads will usually cause premature warpage and how soon depends upon your braking and speed habits.

[iceNine]

I remember about 10 or 12 years ago on the MR2 boards there was a huge debate on brake rotor warping. Some people were arguing that what most people were calling "warping" was not really warping at all but an irregular buildup of pad material being fused to the rotor surface after heating up the rotor more than normal. I have had the pad marks show up on rotors on this car as well as others after some spirited drives with a lot of braking and then stopping in traffic with the pads clamped in one place at a light (I have an automatic). I wonder if the rotors warp as much as we think they do.

[muffinman]

All rotors warp so just buy some decent ones but avoid the really cheap ones if possible. Why don't you just get yours resurfaced , that's always cheaper than new ones and just as effective.

[q-authority]

Originally Posted by muffinman

All rotors warp so just buy some decent ones but avoid the really cheap ones if possible. Why don't you just get yours resurfaced , that's always cheaper than new ones and just as effective.

Yeah, resurfacing them is definitely cheaper, but also don't expect them to last as long as they did originally, before showing signs of warping again. But you generally get your money's worth out of the deal since it is usually so cheap to do this. Just remember that you guys who buy slotted or cross drilled discs can't have them resurfaced unless you find a specialist who can do those kinds of rotors, and they are very few and far between. The cutting blade on a normal machine would catch on the slot/hole.

I have never noticed brake pad material build-up, and I am surprised I have never read about it before (at least that I can remember). But warping definitely happens, one way or the other.

[iceNine]

Originally Posted by q-authority

Yeah, resurfacing them is definitely cheaper, but also don't expect them to last as long as they did originally, before showing signs of warping again. But you generally get your money's worth out of the deal since it is usually so cheap to do this. Just remember that you guys who buy slotted or cross drilled discs can't have them resurfaced unless you find a specialist who can do those kinds of rotors, and they are very few and far between. The cutting blade on a normal machine would catch on the slot/hole.

I have never noticed brake pad material build-up, and I am surprised I have never read about it before (at least that I can remember). But warping definitely happens, one way or the other.

I would think that warping (the plate becoming deformed so that it is no longer "flat") could be confirmed by testing runout using a fixed feeler gauge. I don't have it in front of me but I remember that the BGB has a description of this test and acceptable tolerance numbers for runout on the rotors.

Sorry for asking a stupid question, but if the rotor is really not flat anymore, why would resurfacing fix it? I assume that to get it flat the cutter would take off more material from one portion of each surface than other portions and the result would be a plate that does not have the same weight/balance all the way around. Just curious since I usually get slotted rotors so when they go bad I have to replace them.

And the pad material buildup that I have been aware of on my brakes has been very obvious since I will have visible pad outlines on the rotor. I have even tried fine sandpaper to see if I can get any off and they don't come off.

[iceNine]

More info on "warping" of brake rotors

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

[q-authority]

Originally Posted by iceNine

I would think that warping (the plate becoming deformed so that it is no longer "flat") could be confirmed by testing runout using a fixed feeler gauge. I don't have it in front of me but I remember that the BGB has a description of this test and acceptable tolerance numbers for runout on the rotors.

Sorry for asking a stupid question, but if the rotor is really not flat anymore, why would resurfacing fix it? I assume that to get it flat the cutter would take off more material from one portion of each surface than other portions and the result would be a plate that does not have the same weight/balance all the way around. Just curious since I usually get slotted rotors so when they go bad I have to replace them.

And the pad material buildup that I have been aware of on my brakes has been very obvious since I will have visible pad outlines on the rotor. I have even tried fine sandpaper to see if I can get any off and they don't come off.

Regarding the 'why resurface a rotor that is actually warped': that's a very good question, and one that no one really addresses straight out. It is definitely common place to call the rotors warped, when they reach the point that they create the braking and sometimes, slight steering vibrations that we are all familiar with. How can resurfacing them be a good idea. Well, apparently the warpage is of such a small amount that a minor trim of the rotors works quite well, at least for a short period of time. I would guess, that as to the weight and balnace issue, of the rotors, after such a process that because the rotor mass is so much smaller than that of the wheel and tire, it does not present the same issue as an unbalbalnced wheel assembly. I've thought about that one before, and that's about the best I can come up with.
Yes, the BGB goes over how to check for rotor runount, but the equipment used is not something the avergae do-it-yourselfer has lying around. I believe they call for a specific runout guage to be used.
I have also seen the occasional pad outline on my rotors, more particularly on the rear, after it has been parked for some time after having been driven through the wet, but it has always disappeared after a relatively short drive. Its usually a bit of a rust like material, probably from the partial metalic compound in the R4S pads I use. I really love it when it has sat for a very long time after being wet and the rear pads don't actually release when you let off the emergency brake, but as you start to drive away. The first time or two I heard that I thought part of my rear brake system was coming apart. The only other material I might notice is possibly pad material that gets ground into the rotor as it develops scoring from normal use, but I would consider that quite normal.

[q-authority]

Originally Posted by iceNine

More info on "warping" of brake rotors

StopTech : Balanced Brake Upgrades

That was a very good article, and had some info that I had not been aware of. I guess you can have visible and invisible pad build-up on your rotors, and as I thought, it doesn't take much rotor intolerance to create a real issue.
I would be interested to see just how much scrubbing your rotors with garnet paper, as suggested, might actually help reduce or rid rotor vibration, and just how much of a process it is. And where in the h*ll does one find garnet paper?

[iceNine]

For garnet paper:
Garnet Paper

For measuring run out I think that you need these:
- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

[q-authority]

Originally Posted by iceNine

For garnet paper:
Garnet Paper

For measuring run out I think that you need these:
- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
- Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices

Thanks for the garnet link.
Didn't know they made the other stuff that cheap!