1st Gear Shakes!

Jify · 05-25-2009, 11:49 PM

Howdy Folks!

Just picked up my first MR2 (85 AW11), but it's currently sitting on the driveway until I can work out enough kinks to make it a reliable daily driver. One of the last things I have to figure out is the chatter/shaking.

In 1st gear, while taking off from a stop, the shaking it crazy. My younger sister was behind the car, she described it as the car "hopping". It's not just me either, I had a friend try it and sure enough it shook like hell for him too.

The engine and transmission (inc clutch) were replaced less than 15k km ago, so I'm not 100% sure what would be causing the problem. I thought it might be the motor mounts, they are bad, but I don't think they are the cause of all my shaking. (But I'm sure new mounts would help!)

There is no problem whatsoever in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or reverse. Only first gear, and only while moving from a standstill.

Has anyone experienced this before? I searched the board and came up with a possible bad CV joint, but I'm not sure how I would check that. Would it effect only 1st gear?

Thanks in advance for any help!

MRH · 05-26-2009, 12:22 AM

mine is very similar. I have a second gen mr2 though.

my shaking varies depending on clutch and accelerator petal placement. I have not pin pointed my problem yet, but I'll hollah at you if I figure it out when I am under the hood tomorrow.

nikn · 05-26-2009, 12:56 AM

it could be a number of things. if you have any really bad motor mounts the motor may wobble so much as to actually end up pulling the throttle cable a tiny bit on its own making the launch unsmooth. Starting in second gear is smoother simply because fluctuations in throttle have less effect. Also if a piece of the clutch breaks off (can even be a new clutch) it can easily cause the very rough start in 1rst gear - this will probably also cause grinding during shifts.

A good way to test this is to shift into first and start driving a bit. Once you get a bit of speed depress the clutch and see if the engine can rev freely for a bit. If there is broken clutch material it may not be able to rev 100% freely and will experience maybe a sudden grab here and there. Slowly let go of clutch while reving engine and see if the engine and wheel speed matches more smoothly at higher revs.

palos · 05-26-2009, 01:33 AM

I experienced a similar situation with a different mid-engine car and the remedy was new motor mounts. You may want to try starting the car in second gear to see whether the vibration is significantly less. The engine needs to be under load, so you won't be able to see the movement of the engine and transmission by just blipping the throttle.

Jify · 05-26-2009, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palos

I experienced a similar situation with a different mid-engine car and the remedy was new motor mounts. You may want to try starting the car in second gear to see whether the vibration is significantly less. The engine needs to be under load, so you won't be able to see the movement of the engine and transmission by just blipping the throttle.

Starting from a stop in second did actually product significantly less shaking. There was still some present, but no were near as much. I'm still not convinced it's motor mounts, wouldn't the engine wobble significantly in other gears as well?

The shaking from a standstill is akin to spending 3 seconds in a paint shaker. It's pretty severe. Thanks for all the help so far, I will order a set of the poly urethane mounts for the car.

palos · 05-26-2009, 11:29 AM

The amount of torque in first gear is significantly greater than in any of the other gears.

If you watched SpeedTV over the weekend, on one of the shows prior to the Monaco F1 race, there was an interesting segment showing the seven speed transmission used by one of the teams. The first gear was almost twice as thick as the seventh gear in order to handle the torque of the engine.

Jify · 05-26-2009, 10:56 PM

Mounts ordered! But I still find it hard to believe the shake is all mount. Thanks for the help guys! 8)

Jify · 06-03-2009, 11:27 PM

Just checking, do you think this motor mount is the cause? Replacements are on the way, but I'd rather not place all my eggs in one basket. I'd like to get on the road soon!

[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vXkhF5VFr8k/SiXpJqmKGLI/AAAAAAAAAC8/GAP24IfuEQU/s1600-h/100_2058.JPG[/IMG

Image may not work... Second post down on my cheap-restore blog. MR2 Restore on a budget!

Thanks!

MR2-MRnot · 06-03-2009, 11:31 PM

my friends del sol does that, we realized that the kid he got it off of replaced the clutch with one that is unsprung, meaning it doesnt absorb any shock from engine to tranny, it just puts it to the ground.....just a thought

328FTW · 06-04-2009, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jify

Just checking, do you think this motor mount is the cause? Replacements are on the way, but I'd rather not place all my eggs in one basket. I'd like to get on the road soon!

[url]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vXkhF5VFr8k/SiXpJqmKGLI/AAAAAAAAAC8/GAP24IfuEQU/s1600-h/100_2058.JPG[/IMG

Image may not work... Second post down on my cheap-restore blog. MR2 Restore on a budget!

Thanks!

Works now

Jify · 06-04-2009, 08:39 AM

Thanks. Unsprung clutch eh? I'll keep that in mind. Thanks!

Anyone still convinced it's motor mounts? Or are they still "alright". lol

Jify · 06-04-2009, 08:55 AM

Sorry, I keep responding to my own thread like this. I don't think it is the clutch. 2nd gear has very little harshness (bucking or shuddering), 3rd, 4th, 5th have none at all (since I wasn't starting in 3/4/5). Also, reverse is perfect, no shudder or shake. If the clutch was to blame I'm almost 100% sure I'd feel the same vibration in reverse as I feel in 1st.

I think it has to do with the motor mounts. As the clutch engages in the forward drive gears the engine is "picked up" on that worn mount, and then begins to bounce back and forth until enough constant torque is applied to hold it still. As the clutch engages in the reverse gear, the engine is "pushed down" on that worn mount. Since the engine is already resting on the bottom of the mount it doesn't jump back and forth, just sits pretty.

That's my take on it. But I think the vibration is still extreme for just a mount. We'll see soon if those mounts finally show up.

Jify · 06-05-2009, 07:32 PM

Anyone know how to go about this? Support the bell housing with a wood/jack and remove the mount? Or just remove the mount and let the other 3 support the weight? Thanks!

mr3 · 06-05-2009, 10:06 PM

I used a jack and a piece of wood to support the engine/trans. I'm not sure if it was necessary but I did it anyways.

palos · 06-05-2009, 11:15 PM

Noticed in your previous post "Mounts ordered!". Which mounts did you ultimately order -- (the rear appears to have been pictured)?

Jify · 06-06-2009, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by palos

Noticed in your previous post "Mounts ordered!". Which mounts did you ultimately order -- (the rear appears to have been pictured)?

Twos R Us - Parts for Toyotas from Club MR2

Paid through the nose for shipping, $58 total to ship to Canada. Just gross.

Thanks MR3. I'll do that!

Oh, and the mounts I received.. I haven't had a good look at the front mount, but is it roughly an inch larger diameter wise? This other insert seems huge compared to the rear mount. Hope they sent the right inserts! :s

mr3 · 06-06-2009, 07:04 AM

Did yours come with instructions? I bought mine used frome someone and I had to figure out how to put them in. I'll try to describe what I did in case there were no instructions. I cut the rubber out of the way. Enough to get the hack saw in there. Then I had to cut the metal band that goes around. Just cut through that making sure not to hit the outside of the chassis mount part. Pried up with a flathead screwdriver, hammer metal band out. Insert new mount. Then reinstall and test drive. I noticed that around 1000 rpms the car vibrates but everything else feels fine. Good luck. It's a pretty easy task took about an hour because I had to figure out to cut the thing then slide it out in order for the new ones to fit.

Yes the front is bigger.

Jify · 06-06-2009, 10:25 AM

Wicked! Yes mine came with instructions, you pretty much nailed it to a T with yours! I'll take some pictures as I go at it.. atleast for the rear one. I haven't seen a write up for it, even though it is pretty straight forward. Thanks for the reply!

Off I go! New motor mounts are waiting!

como · 06-20-2009, 08:42 PM

updates please?
I get shaking in first depending on clutch/gas, and in reverse depending on clutch/gas.

Jify · 06-21-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by como

updates please?
I get shaking in first depending on clutch/gas, and in reverse depending on clutch/gas.

Still not registered/insured. Waiting on a throttle cable and front lip. They are in the mail, should be roadable soon. Sorry to keep you waiting!

Hoping everything is good, the old mounts were VERY bad. However, there was no problems in reverse, only in first. (and only from a standstill)

I'll post here as soon as I've tester her out.

Cheers!

Or better yet, you can keep up to date on my blog...
MR2 Restore on a 'student' budget!

05-25-2009, 11:49 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jify No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	1st Gear Shakes! Howdy Folks! Just picked up my first MR2 (85 AW11), but it's currently sitting on the driveway until I can work out enough kinks to make it a reliable daily driver. One of the last things I have to figure out is the chatter/shaking. In 1st gear, while taking off from a stop, the shaking it crazy. My younger sister was behind the car, she described it as the car "hopping". It's not just me either, I had a friend try it and sure enough it shook like hell for him too. The engine and transmission (inc clutch) were replaced less than 15k km ago, so I'm not 100% sure what would be causing the problem. I thought it might be the motor mounts, they are bad, but I don't think they are the cause of all my shaking. (But I'm sure new mounts would help!) There is no problem whatsoever in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, or reverse. Only first gear, and only while moving from a standstill. Has anyone experienced this before? I searched the board and came up with a possible bad CV joint, but I'm not sure how I would check that. Would it effect only 1st gear? Thanks in advance for any help!

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05-26-2009, 12:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
MRH 5SF-TorquE Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Middle TN Posts: 429 Thanks: 47 Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	mine is very similar. I have a second gen mr2 though. my shaking varies depending on clutch and accelerator petal placement. I have not pin pointed my problem yet, but I'll hollah at you if I figure it out when I am under the hood tomorrow.

05-26-2009, 12:56 AM	#3 (permalink)
nikn Cage Fighter Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: dirty jerzey Posts: 144 Thanks: 11 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	it could be a number of things. if you have any really bad motor mounts the motor may wobble so much as to actually end up pulling the throttle cable a tiny bit on its own making the launch unsmooth. Starting in second gear is smoother simply because fluctuations in throttle have less effect. Also if a piece of the clutch breaks off (can even be a new clutch) it can easily cause the very rough start in 1rst gear - this will probably also cause grinding during shifts. A good way to test this is to shift into first and start driving a bit. Once you get a bit of speed depress the clutch and see if the engine can rev freely for a bit. If there is broken clutch material it may not be able to rev 100% freely and will experience maybe a sudden grab here and there. Slowly let go of clutch while reving engine and see if the engine and wheel speed matches more smoothly at higher revs.

05-26-2009, 01:33 AM	#4 (permalink)
palos … Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I experienced a similar situation with a different mid-engine car and the remedy was new motor mounts. You may want to try starting the car in second gear to see whether the vibration is significantly less. The engine needs to be under load, so you won't be able to see the movement of the engine and transmission by just blipping the throttle.

05-26-2009, 11:29 AM	#6 (permalink)
palos … Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	The amount of torque in first gear is significantly greater than in any of the other gears. If you watched SpeedTV over the weekend, on one of the shows prior to the Monaco F1 race, there was an interesting segment showing the seven speed transmission used by one of the teams. The first gear was almost twice as thick as the seventh gear in order to handle the torque of the engine.

05-26-2009, 10:56 PM	#7 (permalink)
Jify No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Mounts ordered! But I still find it hard to believe the shake is all mount. Thanks for the help guys! 8)

06-03-2009, 11:27 PM	#8 (permalink)
Jify No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Just checking, do you think this motor mount is the cause? Replacements are on the way, but I'd rather not place all my eggs in one basket. I'd like to get on the road soon! [IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vXkhF5VFr8k/SiXpJqmKGLI/AAAAAAAAAC8/GAP24IfuEQU/s1600-h/100_2058.JPG[/IMG Image may not work... Second post down on my cheap-restore blog. MR2 Restore on a budget! Thanks!

06-03-2009, 11:31 PM	#9 (permalink)
MR2-MRnot Cage Fighter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Akron, OH-IO Posts: 654 Thanks: 5 Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	my friends del sol does that, we realized that the kid he got it off of replaced the clutch with one that is unsprung, meaning it doesnt absorb any shock from engine to tranny, it just puts it to the ground.....just a thought

06-04-2009, 08:39 AM	#11 (permalink)
Jify No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Thanks. Unsprung clutch eh? I'll keep that in mind. Thanks! Anyone still convinced it's motor mounts? Or are they still "alright". lol

06-04-2009, 08:55 AM	#12 (permalink)
Jify No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Sorry, I keep responding to my own thread like this. I don't think it is the clutch. 2nd gear has very little harshness (bucking or shuddering), 3rd, 4th, 5th have none at all (since I wasn't starting in 3/4/5). Also, reverse is perfect, no shudder or shake. If the clutch was to blame I'm almost 100% sure I'd feel the same vibration in reverse as I feel in 1st. I think it has to do with the motor mounts. As the clutch engages in the forward drive gears the engine is "picked up" on that worn mount, and then begins to bounce back and forth until enough constant torque is applied to hold it still. As the clutch engages in the reverse gear, the engine is "pushed down" on that worn mount. Since the engine is already resting on the bottom of the mount it doesn't jump back and forth, just sits pretty. That's my take on it. But I think the vibration is still extreme for just a mount. We'll see soon if those mounts finally show up.

06-05-2009, 07:32 PM	#13 (permalink)
Jify No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Anyone know how to go about this? Support the bell housing with a wood/jack and remove the mount? Or just remove the mount and let the other 3 support the weight? Thanks!

06-05-2009, 10:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
mr3 Cage Fighter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Plymouth Mtg, Pa Posts: 812 Thanks: 18 Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	I used a jack and a piece of wood to support the engine/trans. I'm not sure if it was necessary but I did it anyways.

06-05-2009, 11:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
palos … Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 170 Thanks: 0 Thanked 20 Times in 18 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Noticed in your previous post "Mounts ordered!". Which mounts did you ultimately order -- (the rear appears to have been pictured)?

06-06-2009, 07:04 AM	#17 (permalink)
mr3 Cage Fighter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Plymouth Mtg, Pa Posts: 812 Thanks: 18 Thanked 25 Times in 24 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Did yours come with instructions? I bought mine used frome someone and I had to figure out how to put them in. I'll try to describe what I did in case there were no instructions. I cut the rubber out of the way. Enough to get the hack saw in there. Then I had to cut the metal band that goes around. Just cut through that making sure not to hit the outside of the chassis mount part. Pried up with a flathead screwdriver, hammer metal band out. Insert new mount. Then reinstall and test drive. I noticed that around 1000 rpms the car vibrates but everything else feels fine. Good luck. It's a pretty easy task took about an hour because I had to figure out to cut the thing then slide it out in order for the new ones to fit. Yes the front is bigger.

06-06-2009, 10:25 AM	#18 (permalink)
Jify No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 20 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Wicked! Yes mine came with instructions, you pretty much nailed it to a T with yours! I'll take some pictures as I go at it.. atleast for the rear one. I haven't seen a write up for it, even though it is pretty straight forward. Thanks for the reply! Off I go! New motor mounts are waiting!

06-20-2009, 08:42 PM	#19 (permalink)
como Road Warrior Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 499 Thanks: 11 Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	updates please? I get shaking in first depending on clutch/gas, and in reverse depending on clutch/gas.