Supertech brand valve guides

Jackstand Queen · 07-28-2009, 08:24 PM

To those who might be considering a rebuild of your cylinder head.

I recommend Supertech brand valve guides. They are made of bronze, they look good, and have a more aerodynamic end just underneath the valve seat.

1. 4age valve stems are 1/100th inch too large to fit inside the guides. Clearance is critical, so you can't just casually drill it out to fit.

2. Do a google for a 15/16th's inch Chuck Reamer. Buy one, this will ream out the valve guide to a perfect valve stem to guide oil clearance.

3. The mounting point for valve seals will not accept a standard 4age valve seal. Supertech manufactures valve seals to fit their guides. The part number is VS-T6SM, order 16 of them.

4. You can find Supertech's home page by googling Supertech and San Jose.

5. The also make a nice set of oem replacement valve springs, and upgrades for valve retainers and valves. For those who have a programable EMS, they make oversized valves too.

Jackstand Queen · 07-29-2009, 02:44 PM

Bump,

I edited my post after researching how to get them to fit properly.

muffinman · 07-30-2009, 10:05 AM

Tuesday you said they suck and don't buy but Wednesday you say they are great go out and buy some.

Jackstand Queen · 07-30-2009, 01:37 PM

Replacing Valve guides is a total beyatch!

You have to heat up the head to near 200 F. and hammer the old ones out. And they don't wanna come out . . . . bad.

I tried heating up the head for installing the Supertech bronze guides. On my first attempt, I beat the $5 a copy, part into an unrecognizable lump of yellow metal. The Supertechs don't want to go in, anymore than the old ones didn't want to leave.

Subsequently, I lubed the Supertech with cutting fluid, stuck it and the 10mm, grade 8, driver bolt in the freezer. Yank it out, and hammer it in quick before the guide warms up. They go in less than a minute this way. Now, I've got to bore the whores out, before a valve stem can fit in. And replace the ruined valve guide.

A good running 4ag family motor should sound like a sewing machine at lower RPMs. If the valves are noisy and clattering, you probably need to replace the valve springs, and guides at a minimum.

This is not a job for the faint hearted, or clumsy. One stray hammer blow, and you've ruined the damn head!

q-authority · 07-31-2009, 05:34 PM

I'd recommend SI Valves if you're looking for bronze valve guides. They are a reputable company and make ones that fit the 4ag valve guide bores properly, have the proper oil clearance to start with, and also fit standard valve stem seals properly. They are maganeze bronze, as are many of the better ones now available. They can be found here: SI VALVES
I have some being installed in a 4agze I am rebuilding. I'm having the machine shop put mine in, as I didn't want to take the chance that I might damage them, plus they may need to be slightly reamed for the proper oil clearances.
For valves, however, Supertech definitely make some nice ones. I got their undercut standard size valves, which are ss, nitride coated, and back cut. I'm having a 5-angle cut done on them. Whether or not that will be significantly any better than a 3-angle job, I don't know, but you only live once.

Jackstand Queen · 07-31-2009, 06:14 PM

Let's say you hand fitted a valve guide before installation. And then installed it. The installation process is so brutal, the valve stem would not fit afterwards.

q-authority was wise to delegate this crappy job to a professional. I wish I could afford to pay someone $70. per hour to do it.

If you knew what goes on inside machine shops and small garages on a daily basis . . . you'd crap your pants. They leave parts out. They do substandard work. Strip out bolts and threads and fix with epoxy putty. One transmission shop I knew of . . . routinely stole parts and items from customer's vehicles.

The last garage my car was in, installed a set of spark plugs that were the wrong heat range for my motor. Their mistake went the worst possible direction into a higher heat range .. . . and its an SC! Inbred morons, rejects from the TheHills have Eyes movie.

q-authority · 07-31-2009, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

Let's say you hand fitted a valve guide before installation. And then installed it. The installation process is so brutal, the valve stem would not fit afterwards.

q-authority was wise to delegate this crappy job to a professional. I wish I could afford to pay someone $70. per hour to do it.

If you knew what goes on inside machine shops and small garages on a daily basis . . . you'd crap your pants. They leave parts out. They do substandard work. Strip out bolts and threads and fix with epoxy putty. One transmission shop I knew of . . . routinely stole parts and items from customer's vehicles.

The last garage my car was in, installed a set of spark plugs that were the wrong heat range for my motor. Their mistake went the worst possible direction into a higher heat range .. . . and its an SC! Inbred morons, rejects from the TheHills have Eyes movie.

Oh, I completely understand your pain. I went through a very similar situation when I had my 4age rebuilt several years back. I kept finding things that they had done wrong for years. This time around though I spent a lot of time researching the shop I finally decided on (famous last words

). This is a once in a lifetime 4agze restoration though, so I want someone who really knows what they're doing on the machine work. I did the disassembly and will put it back together, however. I definitely don't have a money tree out back, and I will be much poorer when this is all finished!

But I will hopefully have something that is quite unique and very special.

Jackstand Queen · 08-01-2009, 12:27 AM

I'm in the middle of a complete rebuild. And trying to do everything myself. Unfortunately, I need the services of a machine shop to do it.

I have absolutely zero faith in the rebuild process.

If my car is still running on this rebuild a year from now . . . . I'll crap in my hat and wear it.

q-authority · 08-01-2009, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

I'm in the middle of a complete rebuild. And trying to do everything myself. Unfortunately, I need the services of a machine shop to do it.

I have absolutely zero faith in the rebuild process.

If my car is still running on this rebuild a year from now . . . . I'll crap in my hat and wear it.

Make sure to post a picture!

Jackstand Queen · 08-08-2009, 05:53 PM

Q-authority:

I did some math and measurements. And here's what I came up with

Typical valve stem diameter .2310" (both Int. and Exh.)

SI valve guide interior diameter .2362"

O.K., subtract the valve stem diameter from the Valve guide diameter and you get .0052"

So let's round that number off to 5/1000ths.

The factory clearance for valve stem to valve guide is less than 1/1000. Now double that clearance number when you apply it to my previous math (because its less than 1/1000th X'2 to account for both sides of the valve stem).

The SI valve guides appear to be out of tolerance (worn out) new, right out of the box.

The BGB recommends using a 6mm Taper Reamer to ream out the valve guide. 6mm is .2329" a reamer of this size would pass through the SI valve guide without touching the inside of the guide.

I don't mean to sound uppity, or act like a monkey with a handful of poop . . . . . but I'd reconsider the SI brand choice.

In the small town where I live, I garantee that no machine shop would be able to do a 4ag valve job. They'd run a 1/4" (.2457")drill bit through the guide and congratulate themselves on what fine work they done did.

q-authority · 08-08-2009, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

Q-authority:

I did some math and measurements. And here's what I came up with

Typical valve stem diameter .2310" (both Int. and Exh.)

SI valve guide interior diameter .2362"

O.K., subtract the valve stem diameter from the Valve guide diameter and you get .0052"

So let's round that number off to 5/1000ths.

The factory clearance for valve stem to valve guide is less than 1/1000. Now double that clearance number when you apply it to my previous math (because its less than 1/1000th X'2 to account for both sides of the valve stem).

The SI valve guides appear to be out of tolerance (worn out) new, right out of the box.

The BGB recommends using a 6mm Taper Reamer to ream out the valve guide. 6mm is .2329" a reamer of this size would pass through the SI valve guide without touching the inside of the guide.

I don't mean to sound uppity, or act like a monkey with a handful of poop . . . . . but I'd reconsider the SI brand choice.

In the small town where I live, I garantee that no machine shop would be able to do a 4ag valve job. They'd run a 1/4" (.2457")drill bit through the guide and congratulate themselves on what fine work they done did.

Okay, I'm not sure where you got your measurements from, but your inner dimateter for the oem valve guides is incorrect. The BGB lists them as .2366-.2374". I have done all the calculations, and the SI valve guides measure up just fine with either oem or aftermarket Supertech valves (as a note, I do tend to do my calculations in mm's).

The following measurements are copied directly from the BGB and from SI and Supertech published specs:

bushing inside diameter (oem valve guide): 6.010-6.030mm
SI valve guide inner diameter: 5.99948mm

valve stem diameter, intake (oem): 5.970-5.985mm
Supertech valve stem diameter, intake: 5.98mm

valve stem diameter, exhaust (oem): 5.965-5.980mm
Supertech valve stem diameter, exhaust: 5.97mm

measured valve stem oil clearance, intake (oem): .025-.60mm (.08mm max)
measured valve stem oil clearance, exhaust (oem): .030-.065mm (.10mm max)

As you can see, the SI valve guides actually have a slightly smaller inner diameter than the oem valve guides, so there should be no problem using them with oem valves.
Additionally, the Supertech valve stems diameters are just less than the largest oem valve stem diameters, and they could therefore be used with either oem or SI valve guides with no problem.

Jackstand Queen · 08-08-2009, 06:51 PM

I got the inner diameter of the SI 4ag valve guide off the SI website. The calculation I got that a 6mm reamer would pass through the SI without touching metal still seems good to me.

I forgot one thing to take into consideration.

A sheet of ordinary copy paper is 3/1000th" inch thick.

Figuring out the measurements in both inches and metric is too much for me. One or the other, but not both.

Good luck.

te51levin · 08-08-2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

In the small town where I live, I garantee that no machine shop would be able to do a 4ag valve job. They'd run a 1/4" (.2457")drill bit through the guide and congratulate themselves on what fine work they done did.

That reminds me - I mentioned your lack of luck with shops so far to one of our best parts people in the area. The person I spoke with said, "I wouldn't surprised at that, if he's been going to XX or those yahoos over at ABC. I wouldn't take my dog to them..."

I did, however, get a glowing reccomendation for a highly regarded machine shop. He is the guy who does their shop jobs as well as any machine work for their personal rides.

Remember, once you've identified a good machinist, HE is the expert - not you - so let him do his job. It is important that you communicate clearly with the machinist and provide FACTORY SPECS (leave your books with them or give them my contact info), as opposed to numbers or theories you've come up with on your own, but don't try to reinvent the wheel. Don't try to prove Toyota wrong (they're not) or tell the machinist that he should do things your way if you're still learning the right way yourself. Don't tell him what to do so much as tell them what your goals are.

You have sort of been trying to extrapolate, assume, chisel, and sledgehammer your way through some very specific, very precise procedures. It just ain't gonna work. It took me some time to learn that lesson myself, but I assure you, it is quite valid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

Figuring out the measurements in both inches and metric is too much for me. One or the other, but not both.

This is a simple conversion. There are exactly 25.4 millimeters per inch.

q-authority · 08-08-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

I got the inner diameter of the SI 4ag valve guide off the SI website. The calculation I got that a 6mm reamer would pass through the SI without touching metal still seems good to me.

I forgot one thing to take into consideration.

A sheet of ordinary copy paper is 3/1000th" inch thick.

Figuring out the measurements in both inches and metric is too much for me. One or the other, but not both.

Good luck.

Well, your SI valve guide inner diameter was correct, but your oem valve guide inner diamteter was way off (at least for measured use). And yes, the BGB recommends to use a 6mm reamer for new oem valve guides, as they must need reaming to make them the correct size. But who is to say that the SI guides need reaming, and not just honing. And since when will a 6mm reamer pass through a 5.99948mm hole without touching metal?
Just stick to millimeters and use all of the measurements I supplied. they all add up exactly as they are supposed to.

MR JAS · 08-09-2009, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

I've got to bore the whores out,

that should be the last thing your worrying about when rebuilding a head

Jackstand Queen · 08-09-2009, 10:13 AM

In this thread I never mentioned any measurement of an oem inner valve guide. I only mentioned the diameter of a 6mm reamer, a typical valve stem, and an SI valve guide.

There is another factor to consider, and that is that bronze valve guides will be changed by the installation process. They have to be hammered in, and its so tight a fit, that there must be a large temperature difference for it to work.

The last motor I overhauled was 5 years ago or more. I'm a bit out of practice. My plan is to measure stuff, and fit stuff together well enough that the resulting rebuild will not be garbage. Its definitely possible that I might turn out an engine that will last a while, take a beating, and not burn oil etc. etc.

I already have that hat, ready to be crapped in and worn, if its still running a year from now. I think I'll have to put the procedure on Youtube for all to see.

I don't see this as a pissing contest, or backyard mechanics can't put an engine together right thread. This is an opportunity to learn about rebuilding issues and problems.

te51levin · 08-09-2009, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

I don't see this as a pissing contest, or backyard mechanics can't put an engine together right thread. This is an opportunity to learn about rebuilding issues and problems.

Understood. But you've already complained about the bad luck you've had, and the bad results you've achieved on your own, and you've already expressed a lack of confidence and lack of knowledge about the rebuild process. This is not coincidence.

However you take it, I would rather give you a reality check now than spare your feelings and watch all your work and money go down the drain later.

Basically, you're trying to do things that really belong in the hands of professionals. Believe me, I've done enough shade tree work to know that you can get away with a lot, but replacing valve guides and reaming them correctly is not the kind of thing that is easily or correctly done at home. They should be pressed into place, not hammered. Machinists have a box full of precision valve guide reamers that are made specifically for that purpose, built in a series of finely graduated sizes to get a precision fit. They have very precise instruments, and they use them to measure everything constantly - before, during, and after any process. They can measure the inside diameter of a valve guide in less time than it takes me to tie my shoes.

I am not trying to rain on your parade, but carrying on stubbornly without proper tools and training is a recipe for guaranteed failure.

If you still insist on doing everything yourself, see if you can take a machine shop class at a local community college. That's a great opportunity to get a real feel for what is required, and do a little work for yourself, with all the tools and instruction you need.

Jackstand Queen · 08-09-2009, 08:44 PM

It was only very recently that the machinists in my town acquired fire and flint tools. However; they still find each other's parasites to be tasty treats.

The lead that you provided earlier has the skill and knowledge needed, but doesn't do imports. He's delayed a 3 hour job order for almost 6 weeks now.

I had figured out that valve guides don't respond well to chisels, hammers, and such. I used a drill press to run a 6mm reamer (not drill) through the guides.

How about you pony up some names of good machine shops in People's Republic of Eugene for me?

07-28-2009, 08:24 PM	#1 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Supertech valve guides To those who might be considering a rebuild of your cylinder head. I recommend Supertech brand valve guides. They are made of bronze, they look good, and have a more aerodynamic end just underneath the valve seat. 1. 4age valve stems are 1/100th inch too large to fit inside the guides. Clearance is critical, so you can't just casually drill it out to fit. 2. Do a google for a 15/16th's inch Chuck Reamer. Buy one, this will ream out the valve guide to a perfect valve stem to guide oil clearance. 3. The mounting point for valve seals will not accept a standard 4age valve seal. Supertech manufactures valve seals to fit their guides. The part number is VS-T6SM, order 16 of them. 4. You can find Supertech's home page by googling Supertech and San Jose. 5. The also make a nice set of oem replacement valve springs, and upgrades for valve retainers and valves. For those who have a programable EMS, they make oversized valves too. Last edited by Jackstand Queen; 07-29-2009 at 01:49 PM.

07-31-2009, 05:34 PM	#5 (permalink)
q-authority Fab4MR2 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Emerald City Posts: 84 Thanks: 0 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I'd recommend SI Valves if you're looking for bronze valve guides. They are a reputable company and make ones that fit the 4ag valve guide bores properly, have the proper oil clearance to start with, and also fit standard valve stem seals properly. They are maganeze bronze, as are many of the better ones now available. They can be found here: SI VALVES I have some being installed in a 4agze I am rebuilding. I'm having the machine shop put mine in, as I didn't want to take the chance that I might damage them, plus they may need to be slightly reamed for the proper oil clearances. For valves, however, Supertech definitely make some nice ones. I got their undercut standard size valves, which are ss, nitride coated, and back cut. I'm having a 5-angle cut done on them. Whether or not that will be significantly any better than a 3-angle job, I don't know, but you only live once. Last edited by q-authority; 07-31-2009 at 05:39 PM. Reason: forgot to include link

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07-29-2009, 02:44 PM	#2 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Bump, I edited my post after researching how to get them to fit properly.

07-30-2009, 10:05 AM	#3 (permalink)
muffinman Brain Surgeon Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,797 Thanks: 24 Thanked 102 Times in 99 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Tuesday you said they suck and don't buy but Wednesday you say they are great go out and buy some.

07-30-2009, 01:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Replacing Valve guides is a total beyatch! You have to heat up the head to near 200 F. and hammer the old ones out. And they don't wanna come out . . . . bad. I tried heating up the head for installing the Supertech bronze guides. On my first attempt, I beat the $5 a copy, part into an unrecognizable lump of yellow metal. The Supertechs don't want to go in, anymore than the old ones didn't want to leave. Subsequently, I lubed the Supertech with cutting fluid, stuck it and the 10mm, grade 8, driver bolt in the freezer. Yank it out, and hammer it in quick before the guide warms up. They go in less than a minute this way. Now, I've got to bore the whores out, before a valve stem can fit in. And replace the ruined valve guide. A good running 4ag family motor should sound like a sewing machine at lower RPMs. If the valves are noisy and clattering, you probably need to replace the valve springs, and guides at a minimum. This is not a job for the faint hearted, or clumsy. One stray hammer blow, and you've ruined the damn head!

07-31-2009, 06:14 PM	#6 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Let's say you hand fitted a valve guide before installation. And then installed it. The installation process is so brutal, the valve stem would not fit afterwards. q-authority was wise to delegate this crappy job to a professional. I wish I could afford to pay someone $70. per hour to do it. If you knew what goes on inside machine shops and small garages on a daily basis . . . you'd crap your pants. They leave parts out. They do substandard work. Strip out bolts and threads and fix with epoxy putty. One transmission shop I knew of . . . routinely stole parts and items from customer's vehicles. The last garage my car was in, installed a set of spark plugs that were the wrong heat range for my motor. Their mistake went the worst possible direction into a higher heat range .. . . and its an SC! Inbred morons, rejects from the *TheHills have Eyes* movie.

08-01-2009, 12:27 AM	#8 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I'm in the middle of a complete rebuild. And trying to do everything myself. Unfortunately, I need the services of a machine shop to do it. I have absolutely zero faith in the rebuild process. If my car is still running on this rebuild a year from now . . . . I'll crap in my hat and wear it.

08-08-2009, 05:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Q-authority: I did some math and measurements. And here's what I came up with Typical valve stem diameter .2310" (both Int. and Exh.) SI valve guide interior diameter .2362" O.K., subtract the valve stem diameter from the Valve guide diameter and you get .0052" So let's round that number off to 5/1000ths. The factory clearance for valve stem to valve guide is less than 1/1000. Now double that clearance number when you apply it to my previous math (because its less than 1/1000th X'2 to account for both sides of the valve stem). The SI valve guides appear to be out of tolerance (worn out) new, right out of the box. The BGB recommends using a 6mm Taper Reamer to ream out the valve guide. 6mm is .2329" a reamer of this size would pass through the SI valve guide without touching the inside of the guide. I don't mean to sound uppity, or act like a monkey with a handful of poop . . . . . but I'd reconsider the SI brand choice. In the small town where I live, I garantee that no machine shop would be able to do a 4ag valve job. They'd run a 1/4" (.2457")drill bit through the guide and congratulate themselves on what fine work they done did.

08-08-2009, 06:51 PM	#12 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I got the inner diameter of the SI 4ag valve guide off the SI website. The calculation I got that a 6mm reamer would pass through the SI without touching metal still seems good to me. I forgot one thing to take into consideration. A sheet of ordinary copy paper is 3/1000th" inch thick. Figuring out the measurements in both inches and metric is too much for me. One or the other, but not both. Good luck.

08-09-2009, 10:13 AM	#16 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	In this thread I never mentioned any measurement of an oem inner valve guide. I only mentioned the diameter of a 6mm reamer, a typical valve stem, and an SI valve guide. There is another factor to consider, and that is that bronze valve guides will be changed by the installation process. They have to be hammered in, and its so tight a fit, that there must be a large temperature difference for it to work. The last motor I overhauled was 5 years ago or more. I'm a bit out of practice. My plan is to measure stuff, and fit stuff together well enough that the resulting rebuild will not be garbage. Its definitely possible that I might turn out an engine that will last a while, take a beating, and not burn oil etc. etc. I already have that hat, ready to be crapped in and worn, if its still running a year from now. I think I'll have to put the procedure on Youtube for all to see. I don't see this as a pissing contest, or backyard mechanics can't put an engine together right thread. This is an opportunity to learn about rebuilding issues and problems.

08-09-2009, 08:44 PM	#18 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 677 Thanks: 52 Thanked 56 Times in 53 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	It was only very recently that the machinists in my town acquired fire and flint tools. However; they still find each other's parasites to be tasty treats. The lead that you provided earlier has the skill and knowledge needed, but doesn't do imports. He's delayed a 3 hour job order for almost 6 weeks now. I had figured out that valve guides don't respond well to chisels, hammers, and such. I used a drill press to run a 6mm reamer (not drill) through the guides. How about you pony up some names of good machine shops in People's Republic of Eugene for me?