5th gear problems

flybikes1593 · 10-10-2009, 09:50 PM

So i took my mr2 on its first real drive, up north, about an hour and a half. And on the way up i had problems with 5th gear. It shifts fine going in, but when you give it gas the shifter knob goes backwards(towards neutral) about half an inch, and when you let off the gas it goes all the way back in. But then i had it all the way in 5th, gave it some gas and it came out completely and went into neutral. It seems like it doesn't go into neutral when i would hold it for acouple minutes, but the shifter knob still moves around.

Any ideas why this could be?

Thanks

espguitarist33 · 10-10-2009, 11:32 PM

its the typical 5th gear popout. it is inevitable aparently...not sure exactly what to tell you. I have a 85 transmission you could buy cheap...but its got 220k on it...no popout though.

traintech86 · 10-10-2009, 11:55 PM

i have heard of this mentioned alot. i am sure if you took your tranny apart there is a way to fix it. from what i notice, its normal for it to move back and forth a little but usualy it won't pop out like that. not unless you get up there in milage. someone will chime in and hopefuly tell you how you can fix it short of buying a new one >_<

espguitarist33 · 10-11-2009, 12:18 AM

honestly though its probably just a new synchro or something...i vaugly rememember hearing something along the lines of syncro clip or something

i guess you cant realy tell the sarcasm in my post since i'm not speaking it. right where i said 220k miles was more sarcastic then sales pitch

flybikes1593 · 10-11-2009, 11:32 AM

well there is 160,000 on it, so it probably shouldnt be doing that

espguitarist33 · 10-11-2009, 11:51 AM

www.imoc.co.uk :: Fixing 5th Gear 'Pop-out'

aparently it is 5th gear itself....maybe i'll do a 5th change on my FS transmission just so its new

muffinman · 10-12-2009, 11:10 AM

also check the cable bushings and mounts.

dirocyn · 10-13-2009, 12:04 PM

5th gear pop-out is a real common problem for the 85-86 due to design of the C50 transmission. You can just hold it in 5th gear--or drive in 4th, if you don't want to rebuild or replace. But that gets old.

The guy who designed the motor mount inserts--Kirkosaurus--told me they help with 5th gear pop-out. I installed inserts in one mount (the rear mount) and it made a huge difference in how far the gearshift lever nods while I'm holding the gear in 5th and change rpms. Well, a huge difference vs. a totally blown motor mount, I'd say it moves about half as far as it did before. It still pops out, though--but my front mount is also shot. Based on that experience, I'd say blown motor mounts could contribute to 5th gear pop-out.

I have a clutch replacement on my to-do list, I'll be putting inserts in the front mount when I do--since that mount has to come out anyway. Still haven't decided if I'm going to upgrade to a C52 when I do (that should fix the pop-out) or, based on the above link, I may just replace the fork, hub, and 5th gear. Have more thoughts on that but don't want to thread-jack, so I'll start a new thread.

Papo J · 10-13-2009, 12:18 PM

The 5th gear pop out is caused by worn or broken output shaft bearings, those sit right under the 5th gear itself. You can probably repair it without removing the tranny by removing the end cover but you'll need specific gear pullers for the job.

YellowJacket · 10-15-2009, 07:21 PM

I have kirks mounts and my 85 5th gear still "saws" back and forth with acceleration like mentioned. The mounts did firm up the car overall on acceleration though and i do recommend them.

I do Not have the pop out either - just sawing.

I have been told that it can last a LONG time like that... or it could go tomorrow... might as well drive it unless you can fix the 5th synchro like the write up.
You could always find a replacement later year (87+) 5spd tranny and replace it, or do what I am doing and many others have done and source a C-160 6speed and pop it in there.

brianbooth · 10-15-2009, 09:05 PM

Same thing happened on my old peugeot 405. I'd just pick up a used tranny and save yourself the headache if I were you

Jimmydee · 11-04-2009, 10:16 AM

Or do what I do and wedge something behind the gear stick to push it in to 5th when you're driving a long distance.

Did that on mine all the way up the M1 and it worked a treat!

I'd recommend a carefully sized piece of wood.

Be careful of splinters though!

traintech86 · 11-06-2009, 01:27 AM

yeah if you desinged something to be on a hinge and fall into place to hold it, that would work. you're better off solving the probly tho and not the symptom.

scottohno · 11-17-2009, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Papo J

The 5th gear pop out is caused by worn or broken output shaft bearings, those sit right under the 5th gear itself. You can probably repair it without removing the tranny by removing the end cover but you'll need specific gear pullers for the job.

not at all.

it is indeed the syncro. however, if you go to any arts store and say you need a syncro youll look like an idiot. there are 7 parts to a syncro. they all cause different things. what you NEED are 5th gear DETENTS. they are made to hold it from popping out of gear. i can show you a pic of a page in my UTI textbook if youd like. ive been through truck(diesel/semi) and automotive powertrain class and aced both. the detents are a spring operated check-ball like mechanism that when you slide the hub into the blocker ring and push it against the speed cone on the gear, kinda locks it in place. sorry for the rant, i just know transmissions. (i need to do mine soon but i dont wanna.

scottohno · 11-17-2009, 10:40 AM

if by output shaft bearings he means input shaft pocket bearings that support the output shaft in the input shaft, i can see your idea, and yes it CAN happen i suppose, but its more likely your front retainer bearing would let it walk enough to pop out of gear. it would have to be a case bearing. (input or output shaft case bearing) the good news is the problem will cost you $1.99 in parts. in labor its about $3000 im guessing for a teardown and inspection.

flybikes1593 · 11-17-2009, 10:45 AM

yea thanks for the help. i know what your talking about because i am in an autos class also.
im thinking about selling the car,so i dontknow if i want to deal with it

scottohno · 11-17-2009, 11:11 AM

ahh cmon. its like a 1 hour job once the trans is off the car. while ur in there you can mess with anything you want. just mark everything as you take it apart. the last thing you want is to find out its a non hunting gearset between the CS and speed gear. then itll make noise, and noise is bad.

Papo J · 11-17-2009, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scottohno

not at all.

it is indeed the syncro. however, if you go to any arts store and say you need a syncro youll look like an idiot. there are 7 parts to a syncro. they all cause different things. what you NEED are 5th gear DETENTS. they are made to hold it from popping out of gear. i can show you a pic of a page in my UTI textbook if youd like. ive been through truck(diesel/semi) and automotive powertrain class and aced both. the detents are a spring operated check-ball like mechanism that when you slide the hub into the blocker ring and push it against the speed cone on the gear, kinda locks it in place. sorry for the rant, i just know transmissions. (i need to do mine soon but i dont wanna.

I am not speculating here and not going to argue with you but, I have 2 C-50 transmissions at home with the 5th gear pop out problem, both have perfect synchros and forks. Both have worn/broken output shaft bearings. Maybe you need to open up a C50 to see for yourself how a C50 is put together. BTW, I'm not a certified mechanic nor I have aced any tests.

scottohno · 11-30-2009, 09:58 PM

that very well can cause it too. where are you from? lookin to sell a trans????

anyhoo, im saying thats the most common problem. as you take it apart and redo all the internals (might as well if youre this far into it) you always replace both bearings just for the hell of it and even get a clutch, unless you like taking all this apart over and over...

i suspect mine is the detents because its starting to do a little movement in 5th gear when i release/apply the accelerator.

10-10-2009, 09:50 PM	#1 (permalink)
flybikes1593 Some Skills Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Neenah Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	5th gear problems So i took my mr2 on its first real drive, up north, about an hour and a half. And on the way up i had problems with 5th gear. It shifts fine going in, but when you give it gas the shifter knob goes backwards(towards neutral) about half an inch, and when you let off the gas it goes all the way back in. But then i had it all the way in 5th, gave it some gas and it came out completely and went into neutral. It seems like it doesn't go into neutral when i would hold it for acouple minutes, but the shifter knob still moves around. Any ideas why this could be? Thanks

10-15-2009, 07:21 PM	#10 (permalink)
YellowJacket 1985 16v NA 6-speed Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 411 Thanks: 8 Thanked 26 Times in 22 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I have kirks mounts and my 85 5th gear still "saws" back and forth with acceleration like mentioned. The mounts did firm up the car overall on acceleration though and i do recommend them. I do Not have the pop out either - just sawing. I have been told that it can last a LONG time like that... or it could go tomorrow... might as well drive it unless you can fix the 5th synchro like the write up. You could always find a replacement later year (87+) 5spd tranny and replace it, or do what I am doing and many others have done and source a C-160 6speed and pop it in there. Last edited by YellowJacket; 10-16-2009 at 08:05 AM..

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10-10-2009, 11:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
espguitarist33 Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: west chester PA Posts: 457 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	its the typical 5th gear popout. it is inevitable aparently...not sure exactly what to tell you. I have a 85 transmission you could buy cheap...but its got 220k on it...no popout though.

10-10-2009, 11:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
traintech86 Traintech86 on all im's Join Date: May 2009 Location: Norfolk VA Posts: 1,083 Thanks: 24 Thanked 27 Times in 26 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	i have heard of this mentioned alot. i am sure if you took your tranny apart there is a way to fix it. from what i notice, its normal for it to move back and forth a little but usualy it won't pop out like that. not unless you get up there in milage. someone will chime in and hopefuly tell you how you can fix it short of buying a new one >_<

10-11-2009, 12:18 AM	#4 (permalink)
espguitarist33 Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: west chester PA Posts: 457 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	honestly though its probably just a new synchro or something...i vaugly rememember hearing something along the lines of syncro clip or something i guess you cant realy tell the sarcasm in my post since i'm not speaking it. right where i said 220k miles was more sarcastic then sales pitch

10-11-2009, 11:32 AM	#5 (permalink)
flybikes1593 Some Skills Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Neenah Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	well there is 160,000 on it, so it probably shouldnt be doing that

10-11-2009, 11:51 AM	#6 (permalink)
espguitarist33 Cage Fighter Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: west chester PA Posts: 457 Thanks: 4 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	www.imoc.co.uk :: Fixing 5th Gear 'Pop-out' aparently it is 5th gear itself....maybe i'll do a 5th change on my FS transmission just so its new

10-12-2009, 11:10 AM	#7 (permalink)
muffinman Brain Surgeon Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 2,191 Thanks: 28 Thanked 119 Times in 116 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	also check the cable bushings and mounts.

10-13-2009, 12:04 PM	#8 (permalink)
dirocyn Cage Fighter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Murfreesboro, TN Posts: 208 Thanks: 7 Thanked 19 Times in 19 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	5th gear pop-out is a real common problem for the 85-86 due to design of the C50 transmission. You can just hold it in 5th gear--or drive in 4th, if you don't want to rebuild or replace. But that gets old. The guy who designed the motor mount inserts--Kirkosaurus--told me they help with 5th gear pop-out. I installed inserts in one mount (the rear mount) and it made a huge difference in how far the gearshift lever nods while I'm holding the gear in 5th and change rpms. Well, a huge difference vs. a totally blown motor mount, I'd say it moves about half as far as it did before. It still pops out, though--but my front mount is also shot. Based on that experience, I'd say blown motor mounts could contribute to 5th gear pop-out. I have a clutch replacement on my to-do list, I'll be putting inserts in the front mount when I do--since that mount has to come out anyway. Still haven't decided if I'm going to upgrade to a C52 when I do (that should fix the pop-out) or, based on the above link, I may just replace the fork, hub, and 5th gear. Have more thoughts on that but don't want to thread-jack, so I'll start a new thread.

10-13-2009, 12:18 PM	#9 (permalink)
Papo J 6SPD GTE Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 238 Thanks: 1 Thanked 23 Times in 22 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	The 5th gear pop out is caused by worn or broken output shaft bearings, those sit right under the 5th gear itself. You can probably repair it without removing the tranny by removing the end cover but you'll need specific gear pullers for the job.

10-15-2009, 09:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
brianbooth Cage Fighter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Longview, WA Posts: 188 Thanks: 5 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Same thing happened on my old peugeot 405. I'd just pick up a used tranny and save yourself the headache if I were you

11-04-2009, 10:16 AM	#12 (permalink)
Jimmydee No Skills Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Hastings Posts: 7 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Or do what I do and wedge something behind the gear stick to push it in to 5th when you're driving a long distance. Did that on mine all the way up the M1 and it worked a treat! I'd recommend a carefully sized piece of wood. Be careful of splinters though!

11-06-2009, 01:27 AM	#13 (permalink)
traintech86 Traintech86 on all im's Join Date: May 2009 Location: Norfolk VA Posts: 1,083 Thanks: 24 Thanked 27 Times in 26 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	yeah if you desinged something to be on a hinge and fall into place to hold it, that would work. you're better off solving the probly tho and not the symptom.

11-17-2009, 10:40 AM	#15 (permalink)
scottohno Master Debater Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Orland Park, IL Posts: 523 Thanks: 11 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	if by output shaft bearings he means input shaft pocket bearings that support the output shaft in the input shaft, i can see your idea, and yes it CAN happen i suppose, but its more likely your front retainer bearing would let it walk enough to pop out of gear. it would have to be a case bearing. (input or output shaft case bearing) the good news is the problem will cost you $1.99 in parts. in labor its about $3000 im guessing for a teardown and inspection.

11-17-2009, 10:45 AM	#16 (permalink)
flybikes1593 Some Skills Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Neenah Posts: 58 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	yea thanks for the help. i know what your talking about because i am in an autos class also. im thinking about selling the car,so i dontknow if i want to deal with it

11-17-2009, 11:11 AM	#17 (permalink)
scottohno Master Debater Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Orland Park, IL Posts: 523 Thanks: 11 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	ahh cmon. its like a 1 hour job once the trans is off the car. while ur in there you can mess with anything you want. just mark everything as you take it apart. the last thing you want is to find out its a non hunting gearset between the CS and speed gear. then itll make noise, and noise is bad.

11-30-2009, 09:58 PM	#19 (permalink)
scottohno Master Debater Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Orland Park, IL Posts: 523 Thanks: 11 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	that very well can cause it too. where are you from? lookin to sell a trans???? anyhoo, im saying thats the most common problem. as you take it apart and redo all the internals (might as well if youre this far into it) you always replace both bearings just for the hell of it and even get a clutch, unless you like taking all this apart over and over... i suspect mine is the detents because its starting to do a little movement in 5th gear when i release/apply the accelerator.