R-12 to R134 - Page 3

black94t · 07-09-2007, 10:45 AM

Thanks guys, I will check this out, take some pictures for future reference. them leather seats get so damned hot and sticky.

V6'er · 07-18-2007, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atgueco

I have been successful in using this R12 replacement for the last 5 years on my Mercedes 560SL. The cooling is about the same if not cooler. Here is the link
http://www.freeze12.com/. I am actually buying a 91 MR2 Turbo and if the AC needs to be redone I will put Freeze 12.

I used to use Freeze12. Then I found out that ES-12a kicks it in the ass.

baktasht · 07-18-2007, 10:59 PM

^^ Where can you get ES-12a

Gairloch · 08-24-2007, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by V6'er

ES-12a, manufactured by EnviroSafe in Pekin, IL, is THE stuff to get.

Enviro-Safe, Inc - Environmentally Friendly Refrigerant and Automotive Fluid Products

Mr2TypeR · 04-30-2008, 11:14 PM

My A/C belt has been disconnected since I bought the car. I think it just lost the charge and the previous owner just disconnected the belt. What exactly would I need to reconnect my system and recharge it?
I was looking at this starter kit Enviro-Safe, Inc - Product Details - Alternate A/C Recharge Kit from the enviro-safe company, but is this all I need? Are there additional tools or devices I would need?
I do have a copy of the BGB, and am not mechanically inclined, but when it comes to A/C systems i'm just plain retarded. I've been reading this thread for over an hour now at work and am still trying to figure out whats what. I've never had A/C in any of my cars.

55mr2 · 04-30-2008, 11:35 PM

I talked to a local A/C shop and the guy told me he would test and recharge my system with an ES-12a type substitute for around $100. At that price, hardly worth it to try this myself.

muffinman · 05-01-2008, 12:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr2TypeR

My A/C belt has been disconnected since I bought the car. I think it just lost the charge and the previous owner just disconnected the belt. What exactly would I need to reconnect my system and recharge it?

the only time someone cuts the belt is if the clutch seizes or compressor you should check those first

madhatter4 · 05-15-2008, 05:26 PM

I am about to recharge my system after buying a vacuum pump and gauges. I want to try the ES-12a but Im not sure how much I need for a evac and recharge. The BGB says ~30 ounces and the ES website says one 6 ounce can = 18 onces of alternative R12. Should I charge by weight or by low side pressure. Not sure how many cans I need to buy.

Spyderdan · 05-15-2008, 07:33 PM

I charged my system by using the equivalent weight of ES-12a.
My low side pressure ended up lower than stock but everything has worked fine for over a year. I added the can of compressor oil first and then only needed part of a refrigerant can to finish the job.

TomsMR2 · 08-13-2008, 02:26 PM

notice that es12 EXPLODES if exposed to a low heat flame in a leak situation. theres a damn good reason hydrocarbon refrigerant isnt used. (scroll to 4:15)

Spyderdan · 08-13-2008, 03:38 PM

So does gasoline but I prefer not to spray it in my interior.

Gairloch · 08-13-2008, 05:13 PM

I wonder what volume of it has to atomize before it reaches critical mass. That's a stupidly low flash point in any case :/

CyFi · 08-13-2008, 05:19 PM

I strongly recommend against this es12 stuff. Not only is it illegal to use in most states and can explode, the minuet you introduce it into your system you've basically just eliminated any way to have the system professionally serviced if there is something you cant do yourself, nobody will touch it with that stuff in there.

Mark_Dorman · 08-13-2008, 07:09 PM

I stuck R-134 in my 92 NA and it works great. Didn't clean anything out or flush the system. My a/c blew warm air when I got it. I used 2 recharge R-134 cans from autozone and it's been blowing cold ever since and no leaks.

mach5mr2 · 08-22-2008, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_Dorman

I stuck R-134 in my 92 NA and it works great. Didn't clean anything out or flush the system. My a/c blew warm air when I got it. I used 2 recharge R-134 cans from autozone and it's been blowing cold ever since and no leaks.

Did you put any oil - either Ester or PAG in with the R-134a ?

John

Mark_Dorman · 08-22-2008, 09:01 PM

No...why?

mach5mr2 · 08-25-2008, 04:50 PM

I thought you should add some oil to the charge to keep the compressor happy. I am under the impression that if you have the old oil that came with the R-12 stuff, then you should use Ester oil and add some with the charge of R-123a. Or if you can clean out all the old oil from the compressor, then you can use the PAG oil with the R-134a.

My AC in the 93T went bad after 16 years of working great. I charged it up with 2 cans of R-134a, some Ester oil, and put a little shot of the dye in there to trace the leak. It seems to be working fine now, but since the R-12 all leaked out, there must be some problem. I am going to get a new reciever / dryer and replace it once I find the leak.

John

gussuk · 09-21-2008, 03:59 AM

Ok
I have read through this entire thread and it begins bragging about the ES-12a refrigerant and ends with a warning it is flamable and no one will work on it after you use it.
I have looked at many sites that sell the stuff and the biggest problem i have found is that no one wants to ship it to Alaska.
Other than that i was pretty well sold on it until these last few posts.
Anyone have any advice?
I have had my 88 MK1 4AGZE T-Top since it was new (53K miles) and it still has the R-12 in it (and is working very well). The idler bearing on the clutch is making a terrible noise and I think I will have to remove the refrigerant to get the compressor out enough to get the clutch off. I do have access to some R-12 to recharge the system but would rather use the ES-12a for the benifits listed earlier in this thread.
Maybe one of you know if the hoses are long enough to turn the compressor so the clutch can be removed and replaced without disturbing the gas?
Although I am a mechanic myself, I usually take it to the dealer for work. Since I am a dealer mechanic myself (Detroit Diesel) I understand the benifit of using a factory trained tech for the work.
Winter is coming so I will have several months to deal with this as I drive my truck during the winter.
Any advice from the masses?
I definately don't want to go through the B.S. of replacing all of the seals/O-rings.

CyFi · 09-21-2008, 05:45 AM

theres no advantage to es12 if you have a properly working system. Evap temps can only get so low, 32 degrees f to be exact, the ac system wont let it get colder for that because if it does the water on the evaporator will freeze which means no cold air. R12 should be able to get your to your lowest temp fine. Go to any dedicated automotive ac forum and post about it on there and watch the flames fly. Those are guys that do ac for a living! thats right, nothing but A/C, they know 10 times what your average dealership worker knows. Dealership guys know how to plug in a machine and press some buttons, they have little understanding of the small details that are very important.

And to Mark Dorman, keep running your ac on mineral oil and you can kiss your whole system goodbye in a short time. R134a doesnt carry mineral oil properly= no lubrication. No lubrication=failure of compressor and failure of compressor means debris and crap (aka "black death", look it up) ****ing up your whole ac system, meaning new compressor, full system dissasembly/flushing and risk of more parts needing replacement because they cant be flushed properly.

TomsMR2 · 09-21-2008, 06:29 AM

the thing with conversions.. you're about 14 years late to the party. no one gives a crap about conversions anymore, everyone is formally trained in straight R134a.

for the most part, you gotta do your own homework on refrigerants.

replacing all the seals and orings honestly isnt that hard.. theres not too many. if your system is empty already, theres no reason not to. they're just a few cents each.

09-21-2008, 03:59 AM	#58 (permalink)
gussuk REDTOY Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Anchorage, Alaska Posts: 2 Thanks: 2 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	ES-12a Ok I have read through this entire thread and it begins bragging about the ES-12a refrigerant and ends with a warning it is flamable and no one will work on it after you use it. I have looked at many sites that sell the stuff and the biggest problem i have found is that no one wants to ship it to Alaska. Other than that i was pretty well sold on it until these last few posts. Anyone have any advice? I have had my 88 MK1 4AGZE T-Top since it was new (53K miles) and it still has the R-12 in it (and is working very well). The idler bearing on the clutch is making a terrible noise and I think I will have to remove the refrigerant to get the compressor out enough to get the clutch off. I do have access to some R-12 to recharge the system but would rather use the ES-12a for the benifits listed earlier in this thread. Maybe one of you know if the hoses are long enough to turn the compressor so the clutch can be removed and replaced without disturbing the gas? Although I am a mechanic myself, I usually take it to the dealer for work. Since I am a dealer mechanic myself (Detroit Diesel) I understand the benifit of using a factory trained tech for the work. Winter is coming so I will have several months to deal with this as I drive my truck during the winter. Any advice from the masses? I definately don't want to go through the B.S. of replacing all of the seals/O-rings. Last edited by gussuk; 09-21-2008 at 05:10 AM.

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Posted By	For	Type	Date
MR2 Technical Knowledgebase - AC Conversion	This thread	Refback	06-10-2008 10:00 PM
MR2 Technical Knowledgebase	This thread	Refback	05-14-2008 02:49 PM
Toyota MR2 Message Board	This thread	Refback	08-24-2007 05:45 AM

07-09-2007, 10:45 AM	#41 (permalink)
black94t MR2 Powder Coater Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Jefferson City, MO. Posts: 277 Thanks: 6 Thanked 14 Times in 8 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Thanks guys, I will check this out, take some pictures for future reference. them leather seats get so damned hot and sticky.

07-18-2007, 10:59 PM	#43 (permalink)
baktasht EMSPowered.com Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 4,651 Thanks: 19 Thanked 133 Times in 118 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (41/98% )	^^ Where can you get ES-12a

04-30-2008, 11:14 PM	#45 (permalink)
Mr2TypeR No Skills Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 27 Thanks: 1 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	My A/C belt has been disconnected since I bought the car. I think it just lost the charge and the previous owner just disconnected the belt. What exactly would I need to reconnect my system and recharge it? I was looking at this starter kit Enviro-Safe, Inc - Product Details - Alternate A/C Recharge Kit from the enviro-safe company, but is this all I need? Are there additional tools or devices I would need? I do have a copy of the BGB, and am not mechanically inclined, but when it comes to A/C systems i'm just plain retarded. I've been reading this thread for over an hour now at work and am still trying to figure out whats what. I've never had A/C in any of my cars.

04-30-2008, 11:35 PM	#46 (permalink)
55mr2 2Old2Give2Hoots Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Winnipeg Posts: 341 Thanks: 10 Thanked 24 Times in 18 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	I talked to a local A/C shop and the guy told me he would test and recharge my system with an ES-12a type substitute for around $100. At that price, hardly worth it to try this myself.

05-15-2008, 05:26 PM	#48 (permalink)
madhatter4 No Skills Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Plano, Tx Posts: 17 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I am about to recharge my system after buying a vacuum pump and gauges. I want to try the ES-12a but Im not sure how much I need for a evac and recharge. The BGB says ~30 ounces and the ES website says one 6 ounce can = 18 onces of alternative R12. Should I charge by weight or by low side pressure. Not sure how many cans I need to buy.

05-15-2008, 07:33 PM	#49 (permalink)
Spyderdan All Skills Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 47 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	I charged my system by using the equivalent weight of ES-12a. My low side pressure ended up lower than stock but everything has worked fine for over a year. I added the can of compressor oil first and then only needed part of a refrigerant can to finish the job.

08-13-2008, 02:26 PM	#50 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Formerly Tom Brokaw Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bay Area Posts: 2,497 Thanks: 8 Thanked 233 Times in 168 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	notice that es12 EXPLODES if exposed to a low heat flame in a leak situation. theres a damn good reason hydrocarbon refrigerant isnt used. (scroll to 4:15)

08-13-2008, 03:38 PM	#51 (permalink)
Spyderdan All Skills Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 47 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	So does gasoline but I prefer not to spray it in my interior.

08-13-2008, 05:13 PM	#52 (permalink)
Gairloch Dreaming of apexes Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Minneapolis, MN Posts: 4,848 Thanks: 125 Thanked 258 Times in 228 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	I wonder what volume of it has to atomize before it reaches critical mass. That's a stupidly low flash point in any case :/

08-13-2008, 05:19 PM	#53 (permalink)
CyFi Shoulda put a ring on it Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Phoenix Posts: 1,398 Thanks: 12 Thanked 38 Times in 35 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	I strongly recommend against this es12 stuff. Not only is it illegal to use in most states and can explode, the minuet you introduce it into your system you've basically just eliminated any way to have the system professionally serviced if there is something you cant do yourself, nobody will touch it with that stuff in there.

08-13-2008, 07:09 PM	#54 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman And the V6 swap continues Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 4,134 Thanks: 75 Thanked 72 Times in 68 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (19/100% )	I stuck R-134 in my 92 NA and it works great. Didn't clean anything out or flush the system. My a/c blew warm air when I got it. I used 2 recharge R-134 cans from autozone and it's been blowing cold ever since and no leaks.

08-22-2008, 09:01 PM	#56 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman And the V6 swap continues Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 4,134 Thanks: 75 Thanked 72 Times in 68 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (19/100% )	No...why?

08-25-2008, 04:50 PM	#57 (permalink)
mach5mr2 93T, 88 SC Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 88 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	I thought you should add some oil to the charge to keep the compressor happy. I am under the impression that if you have the old oil that came with the R-12 stuff, then you should use Ester oil and add some with the charge of R-123a. Or if you can clean out all the old oil from the compressor, then you can use the PAG oil with the R-134a. My AC in the 93T went bad after 16 years of working great. I charged it up with 2 cans of R-134a, some Ester oil, and put a little shot of the dye in there to trace the leak. It seems to be working fine now, but since the R-12 all leaked out, there must be some problem. I am going to get a new reciever / dryer and replace it once I find the leak. John

09-21-2008, 05:45 AM	#59 (permalink)
CyFi Shoulda put a ring on it Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Phoenix Posts: 1,398 Thanks: 12 Thanked 38 Times in 35 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	theres no advantage to es12 if you have a properly working system. Evap temps can only get so low, 32 degrees f to be exact, the ac system wont let it get colder for that because if it does the water on the evaporator will freeze which means no cold air. R12 should be able to get your to your lowest temp fine. Go to any dedicated automotive ac forum and post about it on there and watch the flames fly. Those are guys that do ac for a living! thats right, nothing but A/C, they know 10 times what your average dealership worker knows. Dealership guys know how to plug in a machine and press some buttons, they have little understanding of the small details that are very important. And to Mark Dorman, keep running your ac on mineral oil and you can kiss your whole system goodbye in a short time. R134a doesnt carry mineral oil properly= no lubrication. No lubrication=failure of compressor and failure of compressor means debris and crap (aka "black death", look it up) ****ing up your whole ac system, meaning new compressor, full system dissasembly/flushing and risk of more parts needing replacement because they cant be flushed properly.

09-21-2008, 06:29 AM	#60 (permalink)
TomsMR2 Formerly Tom Brokaw Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Bay Area Posts: 2,497 Thanks: 8 Thanked 233 Times in 168 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	the thing with conversions.. you're about 14 years late to the party. no one gives a crap about conversions anymore, everyone is formally trained in straight R134a. for the most part, you gotta do your own homework on refrigerants. replacing all the seals and orings honestly isnt that hard.. theres not too many. if your system is empty already, theres no reason not to. they're just a few cents each.