Hydrogen On Demand - Page 5

mopwer · 06-26-2008, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

I see Nitrogen Oxides (Nox) referred to as "Nitrous Oxides" as lot on DEQ printouts. Even the Oregon DEQ calls it "Nitrous Oxides" on the emissions printout. However, cars do produce Nitrous Oxides (N20).

US EPA - Nitrous Oxide: Sources and Emissions

I did not know that. Just knew about NO and NO2 (Nitrogen Oxides = NOx). Thanks.

Greg

eckoman_pdx · 06-29-2008, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mopwer

I did not know that. Just knew about NO and NO2 (Nitrogen Oxides = NOx). Thanks.

Greg

You're welcome

That's what we're here for, to help and learn

yikes · 07-20-2008, 07:21 PM

Stopped in for an update, though not much to report. Built several boosters with less than optimistic results. Made some very stupid decisions stemming from over-confidence which set me back 3 months. So I reverted to a configuration that I know works. Just like the first one, this will take 4 weeks to get up to it's potential. But yesterday on a 144 mile drive, I did get 42 mpg. So it's coming along.

here are some pics, the one in the car now is the little one with the green tape measure.

mryikes/booster - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

mopwer · 07-20-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yikes

Stopped in for an update, though not much to report. Built several boosters with less than optimistic results. Made some very stupid decisions stemming from over-confidence which set me back 3 months. So I reverted to a configuration that I know works. Just like the first one, this will take 4 weeks to get up to it's potential. But yesterday on a 144 mile drive, I did get 42 mpg. So it's coming along.

here are some pics, the one in the car now is the little one with the green tape measure.

mryikes/booster - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Have you tried any SS wire mesh? I've seen some video using this material and it looks to put out quite a bit of gas.

Greg

yikes · 07-21-2008, 01:11 AM

Yeah some people try it, but it's just fantasy. They think that most of the gas comes off the edges, so they try to make it all edges. It doesn't work that way. There are very few videos that show "a lot of gas". What you are seeing is less than 3 lpm. But I do applaude people for trying, It's what we all are doing.

Maruki-kun · 07-21-2008, 03:16 AM

apparently you are supposed to measure the amount of output in the bubbler. me and my brother have been working on this idea for quite some time.

kameleon · 07-21-2008, 05:12 PM

Thanks for the update yikes. At least we all know you didn't get snuffed by "big oil". lol

I am slowly working on my booster. I have just about everything together. Just need time now. Any and all updates are on my blog posted above.

PhoenixBlade910 · 08-08-2008, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gairloch

Bob, how will this impact power? Will it increase or decrease the likelihood of detonation?

yea. i was wondering the same thing. how reliable is it, and how long would it last if it works

kameleon · 08-14-2008, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhoenixBlade910

yea. i was wondering the same thing. how reliable is it, and how long would it last if it works

Technically with it cooling the combustion process it should decrease the chances of detonation. But with it burning faster I could see where there may be a slight risk of detonation. But from all the research I have done on this that is not really on the peoples radar so I would not worry unless you start producing a "helluvalot" of gas at which time you will need to adjust your timing.

And technically the unit should last as long as you make sure it is properly maintained.

I should be able to do some testing soon and update my blog. Just been swamped lately.

Jackstand Queen · 09-24-2008, 01:33 PM

DO The MATH!

I looked into Hydrogen from water for cars a couple of months ago.

I did the math. And here's what I came up with. A naturally aspired MkI Mr2 cruising near 70 MPH @ 3500 RPM. On each revolution two cylinders are firing. So divide the RPM by 2 and you get 1750 compression/firing strokes per minute TIMES .8 liter (@.4 liter per cylinder). Now multiply the 1750 times the volume of two cylinders (.8 liter)and you get 1400 liters of air being pumped into the motor each minute.

Now take the 5 liters of Hydrogen the originator of this thread produces with his device. 5 Liters is only 1/3 of 1% of the total air inhaled by the small motored car posulated at the begginning of this post. I don't know the exact level of saturation of Hydrogen where it can combust in normal air. But, if my house's interior was completely saturated at 0.35% of hydrogen by volume. I'd light up a cigar inside without any hesitation.

I am prepared to be engulfed in FLAMES by posters passionate about this idea.

I would ask that my math be critiqued, and CORRECTED. The math I did is simply my math. But show me where I am wrong, if I am wrong.

kameleon · 09-24-2008, 01:55 PM

I will only raise one item I see that is flawed in your figures. You are figuring the AIR not the actual fuel part. The ideal mixture for gasoline is 1 gram of gasoline to 14.7 grams of air IIRC. I am not sure on the ideal mixture of hydrogen though.

I do not claim to be an expert at this nor do I plan to be. I am just a humble DIY'er that is looking to get any kind of relief from these fuel prices. I have everything ready to build my boosters except the time at the moment. Hopefully one of these days here soon I will be able to assemble them. Also if you read my blog (which very badly needs updating) you will see the procedure I plan to follow in testing. I don't have any fancy gas measuring tools or even fuel flow at the moment. Nor do I plan to modify the engines in any way. I want to see what these boosters are capable of on their own.

I would however caution any critics or even pessimists to try one before bashing. Sometimes the math doesn't add up but even if so it could work. I personally don't think this is the way to run a car totally as such things like a fuel cell powering electric motors are ALOT more efficient than this. This is just a mere fuel savings device. And with todays prices everyone could use a little help somewhere.

kameleon · 09-24-2008, 04:50 PM

dang FF made me double post. grrrr

Jackstand Queen · 09-25-2008, 11:16 AM

Darn it, Kameleon got me thinking some more on the Math.

O.K. the air volume would be decreased by gasoline content, plus a lower air density to account for the vacuum needed for a N.A. engine to work. So with vacuum and fuel content, lets massage the air volume number to 1000 liters per minute.

Kameleon got me further thinking on the STOICH (spelling?) number of 14.7:1 air/fuel number. Percentage wise, this number is about 6.8 % fuel and 93.2 % air.

Adding say 1/2 of 1% of hydrogen on top of the 6.8% fuel volume is significant. I believe it could affect the MPG of an engine.

I guess my bias against the Hydrogen idea is that I am so old, I've seen so many snake-oil salesman, fobbing off voodoo, faith healing, ufo, hollow earth crap, that I get too skeptical.

kameleon · 09-25-2008, 11:26 AM

Glad I got those thinking juices flowing again.

Like I said, I am not here to push anything on anyone, but on the same hand I don't want anyone to dismiss what we are trying to do in regards to increasing fuel economy without trying it. If I can be of any help or assistance I will try my best to help.

I see where you are getting with the "snake oil" stuff... Kinda like blinker fluid or muffler bearing grease. That's why I say I am not here to make money off this stuff. I am here just to share my findings. At some point I may have some spare parts left over and I could possibly sell some of that off but nothing more than help others get some hard to find stuff. Like that dang KOH I have 4lbs of sitting in my shop...

yikes · 09-27-2008, 12:56 PM

and Jackstand, that is why I post here. I would rather mr2 people not get ripped off by overpaying to buy one of these things, when you can build one so cheaply and easily.
I just built another type of hydrogen booster made with "condiment cups" (little ss cups at walmart 4/$1) and put them in a "Penn Handball" container. I have had it in the car for a week and it is working well. Cost was $10. The container will fail over time but it is fun coming up with new and cheaper ideas. I separated the cups with doubled strips of electric tape (sliced thin). I jammed the copper wire between two of the cups and coated the edge with 3M. I made four of those and separated them with 6 neutrals, so I used 26 cups. Cute little thing. Mileage is running between 38 and 42 highway.

hosh · 10-03-2008, 10:43 AM

Yikes,

Please post pics of this newfangled idea. I like it.

Jackstand,

You forgot one thing that would slightly change your numbers. VE volumetric efficiency.

Somewhere around 85% I think. Our motors can achieve 95% over short rpm range.
These percentages were pulled from fuzzy memory and may not be spot on, I haven't researched it in a while and haven't had time to do the actual measurements. My motor still needs tuned (spend to much time at work) before I try the booster.

mk15mr2 · 05-29-2009, 10:52 PM

I know this is old but...ANY MORE UPDATES ON THIS? I see shell selling hydrogen enriched gas now....?

kameleon · 05-29-2009, 10:58 PM

Around here it's NITROGEN.

A quick internet search said it is either depending on the area of the country you are in. But otherwise, no I have not seen any more updates and I have not had time to do any of my projects.

seanfromnh · 07-03-2009, 12:36 AM

Hi im still new to the forum but i just came across this thread..
I have an 86 Mk1 that i bought as my HHO project car... I made three cells to run simultaneously making probably around nine L/min max together... i attached them to my MR2 and everything and it was very successfull- yikes isn't pulling your leg here... I think in good conditions that i got about 100-110 mpg- plus this was the perfect car to try this on! the only issue i have now is that my cells are producing too much gas for the tubes- builds pressure and leaks... so im in the process of fixing that.. I also need a new motor for the MR2.-- NOT BECAUSE OF THE HHO!!!!--- I lost two cylinders- bad compression in one, not sure about the other... I have no idea where to find another motor for this thing... any help??

seanfromnh · 07-03-2009, 12:45 AM

Also i wanted to add something i learned... i read a little bit and saw people were wondering how to reduce heat.... the smaller and more cells you have ( instead of one big one use two that are half the size or three a third of the size etc..) you can reduce heat dramatically and it also requires less amperage to produce the same amount of HHO....

09-24-2008, 04:50 PM	#92 (permalink)
kameleon Side 2 Side Racing Inc. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Jackson, MS Posts: 283 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	dang FF made me double post. grrrr Last edited by kameleon; 09-24-2008 at 04:51 PM.. Reason: FF freakup

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07-20-2008, 07:21 PM	#83 (permalink)
yikes Cage Fighter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Gnaw Bone, Indiana Posts: 230 Thanks: 2 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Stopped in for an update, though not much to report. Built several boosters with less than optimistic results. Made some very stupid decisions stemming from over-confidence which set me back 3 months. So I reverted to a configuration that I know works. Just like the first one, this will take 4 weeks to get up to it's potential. But yesterday on a 144 mile drive, I did get 42 mpg. So it's coming along. here are some pics, the one in the car now is the little one with the green tape measure. mryikes/booster - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

07-21-2008, 01:11 AM	#85 (permalink)
yikes Cage Fighter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Gnaw Bone, Indiana Posts: 230 Thanks: 2 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Yeah some people try it, but it's just fantasy. They think that most of the gas comes off the edges, so they try to make it all edges. It doesn't work that way. There are very few videos that show "a lot of gas". What you are seeing is less than 3 lpm. But I do applaude people for trying, It's what we all are doing.

07-21-2008, 03:16 AM	#86 (permalink)
Maruki-kun Cage Fighter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Millington, MD Posts: 2,487 Thanks: 9 Thanked 74 Times in 67 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	apparently you are supposed to measure the amount of output in the bubbler. me and my brother have been working on this idea for quite some time.

07-21-2008, 05:12 PM	#87 (permalink)
kameleon Side 2 Side Racing Inc. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Jackson, MS Posts: 283 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Thanks for the update yikes. At least we all know you didn't get snuffed by "big oil". lol I am slowly working on my booster. I have just about everything together. Just need time now. Any and all updates are on my blog posted above.

09-24-2008, 01:33 PM	#90 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 840 Thanks: 75 Thanked 64 Times in 60 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	DO The MATH! I looked into Hydrogen from water for cars a couple of months ago. I did the math. And here's what I came up with. A naturally aspired MkI Mr2 cruising near 70 MPH @ 3500 RPM. On each revolution two cylinders are firing. So divide the RPM by 2 and you get 1750 compression/firing strokes per minute TIMES .8 liter (@.4 liter per cylinder). Now multiply the 1750 times the volume of two cylinders (.8 liter)and you get 1400 liters of air being pumped into the motor each minute. Now take the 5 liters of Hydrogen the originator of this thread produces with his device. 5 Liters is only 1/3 of 1% of the total air inhaled by the small motored car posulated at the begginning of this post. I don't know the exact level of saturation of Hydrogen where it can combust in normal air. But, if my house's interior was completely saturated at 0.35% of hydrogen by volume. I'd light up a cigar inside without any hesitation. I am prepared to be engulfed in FLAMES by posters passionate about this idea. I would ask that my math be critiqued, and CORRECTED. The math I did is simply my math. But show me where I am wrong, if I am wrong.

09-24-2008, 01:55 PM	#91 (permalink)
kameleon Side 2 Side Racing Inc. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Jackson, MS Posts: 283 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	I will only raise one item I see that is flawed in your figures. You are figuring the AIR not the actual fuel part. The ideal mixture for gasoline is 1 gram of gasoline to 14.7 grams of air IIRC. I am not sure on the ideal mixture of hydrogen though. I do not claim to be an expert at this nor do I plan to be. I am just a humble DIY'er that is looking to get any kind of relief from these fuel prices. I have everything ready to build my boosters except the time at the moment. Hopefully one of these days here soon I will be able to assemble them. Also if you read my blog (which very badly needs updating) you will see the procedure I plan to follow in testing. I don't have any fancy gas measuring tools or even fuel flow at the moment. Nor do I plan to modify the engines in any way. I want to see what these boosters are capable of on their own. I would however caution any critics or even pessimists to try one before bashing. Sometimes the math doesn't add up but even if so it could work. I personally don't think this is the way to run a car totally as such things like a fuel cell powering electric motors are ALOT more efficient than this. This is just a mere fuel savings device. And with todays prices everyone could use a little help somewhere.

09-25-2008, 11:16 AM	#93 (permalink)
Jackstand Queen Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 840 Thanks: 75 Thanked 64 Times in 60 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Darn it, Kameleon got me thinking some more on the Math. O.K. the air volume would be decreased by gasoline content, plus a lower air density to account for the vacuum needed for a N.A. engine to work. So with vacuum and fuel content, lets massage the air volume number to 1000 liters per minute. Kameleon got me further thinking on the STOICH (spelling?) number of 14.7:1 air/fuel number. Percentage wise, this number is about 6.8 % fuel and 93.2 % air. Adding say 1/2 of 1% of hydrogen on top of the 6.8% fuel volume is significant. I believe it could affect the MPG of an engine. I guess my bias against the Hydrogen idea is that I am so old, I've seen so many snake-oil salesman, fobbing off voodoo, faith healing, ufo, hollow earth crap, that I get too skeptical.

09-25-2008, 11:26 AM	#94 (permalink)
kameleon Side 2 Side Racing Inc. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Jackson, MS Posts: 283 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Glad I got those thinking juices flowing again. Like I said, I am not here to push anything on anyone, but on the same hand I don't want anyone to dismiss what we are trying to do in regards to increasing fuel economy without trying it. If I can be of any help or assistance I will try my best to help. I see where you are getting with the "snake oil" stuff... Kinda like blinker fluid or muffler bearing grease. That's why I say I am not here to make money off this stuff. I am here just to share my findings. At some point I may have some spare parts left over and I could possibly sell some of that off but nothing more than help others get some hard to find stuff. Like that dang KOH I have 4lbs of sitting in my shop...

09-27-2008, 12:56 PM	#95 (permalink)
yikes Cage Fighter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Gnaw Bone, Indiana Posts: 230 Thanks: 2 Thanked 12 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	and Jackstand, that is why I post here. I would rather mr2 people not get ripped off by overpaying to buy one of these things, when you can build one so cheaply and easily. I just built another type of hydrogen booster made with "condiment cups" (little ss cups at walmart 4/$1) and put them in a "Penn Handball" container. I have had it in the car for a week and it is working well. Cost was $10. The container will fail over time but it is fun coming up with new and cheaper ideas. I separated the cups with doubled strips of electric tape (sliced thin). I jammed the copper wire between two of the cups and coated the edge with 3M. I made four of those and separated them with 6 neutrals, so I used 26 cups. Cute little thing. Mileage is running between 38 and 42 highway.

10-03-2008, 10:43 AM	#96 (permalink)
hosh to many yotas, never! Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: skiatook, ok Posts: 75 Thanks: 3 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Yikes, Please post pics of this newfangled idea. I like it. Jackstand, You forgot one thing that would slightly change your numbers. VE volumetric efficiency. Somewhere around 85% I think. Our motors can achieve 95% over short rpm range. These percentages were pulled from fuzzy memory and may not be spot on, I haven't researched it in a while and haven't had time to do the actual measurements. My motor still needs tuned (spend to much time at work) before I try the booster.

05-29-2009, 10:52 PM	#97 (permalink)
mk15mr2 Some Skills Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Arizona Posts: 72 Thanks: 18 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I know this is old but...ANY MORE UPDATES ON THIS? I see shell selling hydrogen enriched gas now....?

05-29-2009, 10:58 PM	#98 (permalink)
kameleon Side 2 Side Racing Inc. Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Jackson, MS Posts: 283 Thanks: 1 Thanked 7 Times in 7 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	Around here it's NITROGEN. A quick internet search said it is either depending on the area of the country you are in. But otherwise, no I have not seen any more updates and I have not had time to do any of my projects.

07-03-2009, 12:36 AM	#99 (permalink)
seanfromnh MRnot2fast Join Date: May 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 44 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Hi im still new to the forum but i just came across this thread.. I have an 86 Mk1 that i bought as my HHO project car... I made three cells to run simultaneously making probably around nine L/min max together... i attached them to my MR2 and everything and it was very successfull- yikes isn't pulling your leg here... I think in good conditions that i got about 100-110 mpg- plus this was the perfect car to try this on! the only issue i have now is that my cells are producing too much gas for the tubes- builds pressure and leaks... so im in the process of fixing that.. I also need a new motor for the MR2.-- NOT BECAUSE OF THE HHO!!!!--- I lost two cylinders- bad compression in one, not sure about the other... I have no idea where to find another motor for this thing... any help??

07-03-2009, 12:45 AM	#100 (permalink)
seanfromnh MRnot2fast Join Date: May 2009 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 44 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Also i wanted to add something i learned... i read a little bit and saw people were wondering how to reduce heat.... the smaller and more cells you have ( instead of one big one use two that are half the size or three a third of the size etc..) you can reduce heat dramatically and it also requires less amperage to produce the same amount of HHO....