Hydrogen On Demand

[seanfromnh]

More questions... lol

i was wondering if anyone knew exactly how much hydrogen is produced from a mililiter of water (or gallon/ liter etc..) and i was wondering if anyone knew how much energy (btu-wise) was in that said amount of hydrogen...

[U-235]

Originally Posted by seanfromnh

Ya with my lawn mower It wasn't a self-contained unit (what i meant by "not complete" ) It was running off the electricity provided by my cavaliers battery and ran my little mower ( little two-horse i had sittin around... doesn't cut much grass as you can imagine so i figured id play with it...) Like i said it didn't run for a long time but it did run on just the HHO... I was under the impression that id easily be able to just attach an alternator and battery to the mower shaft and get the same result... But Im not sure if (like you mentioned earlier) the mower would turn the alternator efficiently?

Well, my concern would be whether or not the alternator connected to the mower engine would be able to charge it quick enough.

Originally Posted by seanfromnh

More questions... lol

i was wondering if anyone knew exactly how much hydrogen is produced from a mililiter of water (or gallon/ liter etc..) and i was wondering if anyone knew how much energy (btu-wise) was in that said amount of hydrogen...

I couldn't find the figures anywhere, so I'm doing math. Dammit.

According to wiki, hydrogen puts off 143 MJ/kg of energy when combined with oxygen but per volume only puts out 0.01079 MJ/l. Since I'm guessing you'll be measuring your quantity by volume, that's the figure I'd use to calculate. All volumes are given at STP.


0.01079 MJ/l = 0.00001079 MJ/ml.

1 MJ = 947.81712 BTU.

So 1 ml of hydrogen will put out 0.0102269467248 BTU.

Water is about 18g per mole by mass and is approximately 1/9th hydrogen (~16g oxygen, ~2g hydrogen). Using the Mole to volume conversion (1 mol = 22.4l), we can say that 18g of water will produce ~2.48889 litres, or 2488.9 ml. But 1 ml of water is only 1g, so using the same conversion factor we should get 0.138271605 litres, or ~138.27 ml of hydrogen.

So in 1 ml of water, you have enough hydrogen to produce ~1.41409634 BTU.

Unless my math is wrong.

[yikes]

Time for an update. Booster is still working, mileage is constant. Switched to 8 gauge wires to eliminate my constant concern about overheated wires (they never were, but I have to have something to worry about). My real world problems are always about leaks. I see white powder on the outside of the booster, which implies that water is escaping,,and if water can get out, then certainly those tiny H molecules can. So I take one unit out and replace it with another and two months later do it over again. BORING.
Bottom line+it works and keeps on working. I check on it when I fill up with gas and seldom think about it otherwise. To check if it is working correctly, I grab the tailpipe. It it's hot, the booster is not working and I have to fix something. If the pipe is barely warm, then everything is okay. I add water once a month, if I remember.

I see guys here are concerned that this is a hoax and that's okay, but please remember the reason for this thread is to prevent anyone from going out and buying an overpriced booster. There is no need to do that. And there are a lot of scams that will happily take your money. I was recently at a meeting of dorks like me where a man asked me to help him figure out why his unit was not working well. He had paid over $2500 for a unit that could be made for 50 and was told to change many things in his motorhome to make it work. To undo all that work will cost him a lot. I do not want that to happen to any mr2 people. To the skeptics,,your intellect is working well and your thought processes are not in error. Everything you say and hold dear is true. It's just that there is more to it. Be happy, I am.

[seanfromnh]

So i was bored and browsing around online and started looking at just hydrogen....
Thanks to wikipedia....
"The theoretical maximum efficiency (electricity used vs. energetic value of hydrogen produced) is between 80–94%."
So this got me thinking.... That would mean i would only need a fuel (like gasoline) to do 6-20% of the work right? (probably closer to 20%... ) So... with an ideal/perfect setup my 12 gallon tank could be converted into a .72 gallon tank!! 3/4 gallon for a fillup!! sweet!
And then i wound up hearing something about someone oversea making a hybrid- its all carbon fiber and only weighs a couple hundred pounds and it uses hho cells and has a one liter gas tank. It gets 1,337 mpg apparently. Its only a one-passenger and its obviously little but maybe this might be something??

[U-235]

For that first figure, it basically means that it would only able to recover 80-94% of electricity lost from the alternator, since it's providing the power doing the splitting.

[Kerry Phillips]

Originally Posted by seanfromnh

More questions... lol

i was wondering if anyone knew exactly how much hydrogen is produced from a mililiter of water (or gallon/ liter etc..) and i was wondering if anyone knew how much energy (btu-wise) was in that said amount of hydrogen...

Let me try using my limited chemistry knowledge.

H(2) Oxygen(1) but Oxygen is a diatomic molecule, so its weight is 16 while hydrogen is 1 but times two for a water molecule. So hydrogen represents 2/18 or 1/9 the weight of water. Since water weighs 8.3 pounds per gallon. So there should be approximately 0.9 pounds of hydrogen per gallon of water, my final answer.

BTW Gasoline weighs about 6.5 pounds per gallon.
Kerry

[seanfromnh]

hey everyone, i just found this online...

The PAC-Car II set a new world record in fuel efficient driving during the Shell Eco-marathon in Ladoux (France) on June 26, 2005. Running on hydrogen, the PAC-Car II achieved the equivalent of 5,385 km per liter of gasoline (12,666 MPG!)

it was on the EPA's website- http://fueleconomy.gov/feg/mostEfficient.shtml
It looks like they might be onto something.....

[U-235]

Notwithstanding that it's a specialized vehicle and on a closed circuit course... That is DAMN impressive.

It's also a fuel cell type.

[seanfromnh]

Thats what i thought... but who's to say that in a couple more years this could be made into a two-passenger for the street??

[U-235]

We could definitely hope, but the PAC CAR II last took flight 5 years ago.

Now that an economic supply of hydrogen has been identified (urine recycling) and in a lab setting they've made economic hydrogen holding tanks from chicken feathers, we just need some more maturation in the auto-side of the house (like Honda did with the FCX) to show some promise to the guys who are in charge of infrastructure that hey, "this stuff can work."

[Medusa]

This is all really good stuff, but the basic premise of running a car from water is troubling. The earth has how much fresh water available? And for these set ups people have been building, they require purified water.

If we are fueling our cars with water, what do we drink? And don't say juice, because A) the juice you buy in a store is part water, and B) even if you squeezed fruits and whatnot to extract the pure juices and didn't add, we don't do that on a large enough scale to provide the whole world with enough to drink. Then you would have problems with fruit shortage also.

Now, I'm trying to be thorough, so if I miss something I hope somebody will point it out.

Using the hydrogen from urine instead of water is a great idea, but try convincing everybody to run their cars on pee. There are definitely a surprising amount of people who will do it, I am sure, but not enough to make viable I would guess.

Honestly, it is getting late and I am too tired to go back and fix the math some people have done. It has all been wrong, to one extent or another, but I really don't have the energy right now to fix it. Tomorrow, after I've had a good night's rest, I'll go back and fix some math maybe. I've always really loved chemistry.

So expect to hear more from me tomorrow.

[U-235]

^Hydrogen extracted from the water is combined with oxygen in the engine. To make water. You're not reducing the water table. And even as it were, some countries- notably those on the Arabian peninsula- get a majority of their water through desalinization of ocean waters.

Also, the setups don't require the water be purified/distilled- in fact, salts or other electrocatalysts are typically added to decrease resistance through the water and significantly increases the efficiency of the conversion.

I don't know why people would be adverse to running it on urine (except for maybe the ladies, but I'm probably stereotyping this one), but that wasn't the point I was alluding to- my point was that urine can be collected from sewage plants, broken down into it's components and the hydrogen could be collected and distributed much in the same way that other hydrocarbon fuels are.

[Medusa]

The process of burning the hydrogen is never 100% efficient, so some water is lost.

You do bring up a good point though, and we are both wrong to a certain extent. This is what I love about science. If somebody says something you think is wrong, you can rationally explain why you think they are wrong, no personal attacks involved.

As far as desalinization goes, submarines' (and most of the US Navy ships, while out at sea for extended periods of time) fresh water is supplied by desalinization also, but they still have to be careful not to use too much water, because it is not an instantaneous process. Now, land-based desalinization plants work on a larger scale, but only because they serve a larger number of people. The water constraints are still there.

Now, I think running engines, whether partially or completely, on hydrogen is awesome! I support it, but I don't think it is the solution for mass-production. As has been brought up before, there are more efficient ways to run your car on hydrogen, and more efficient ways to run your car period.

And as for the amount of hydrogen in water, I'll cover that real quick. Assuming we are measuring pure water, here are the weights.

Anybody with even a remote knowledge of chemistry either knows are can find out very easily that water weighs 18.015 g/mol. So, in every ~18 grams of water you have 6.02*10^23 particles of oxygen and 1.204*10^24 particles of hydrogen. That is about 2 grams of hydrogen. Scale that up, and you have approximately 11.11 grams of hydrogen per kilogram of water.

One kilogram of water is the definition of a liter, and there are approximately 3.8 liters in one gallon of water. So 11.11 g/L*3.8L/gallon=42.218 g/gallon.

So in one gallon of pure water there is approximately 42.2 grams of hydrogen. One pound is about 454 grams, so there is 0.09 pounds of hydrogen per gallon of water, approximately.

Please, use the metric system for your calculations. Imperial system is just terrible. I only did the pounds conversion for you US imperial freaks. THE REST OF THE WORLD USES THE METRIC SYSTEM, why can't we? It is so much easier and much more precise.

[U-235]

Werd for science.

Desalinization in those plants and on boats isn't an isochronous procedure- the primary reason for the boats to get tapped out on that so easily is because they don't have the luxury of large water towers to provide them peak usage water.

I'm not even remotely suggesting that if we all got together in Oman and flushed the toilets simultaneously that we couldn't tap out the infrastructure, I'm just saying that if water was a viable source of fuel because of these under-the-hood converters (I think I made my stance on them very, very visible in previous posts ) it wouldn't be that hard to provide it because it doesn't need to be potable, it just needs to be silt free.

Existing infrastructure wouldn't be able to support it, of course.

You shouldn't have used pounds period because it's a unit of force, not a unit of mass.

The Imperial system is embraced because we have so much infrastructure based on it, we're brainwashed to use it, and our distance measurements can be broken down into its constituent parts EVENLY into 1/3's and 1/4's.

[Medusa]

For the imperial system, pounds is used both as a measurement of mass and force. Another reason I hate it so much.

I'll convert the grams of hydrogen to Newtons, then convert that to pounds-force if you want.

And like I said, since all chemistry measuremtents are metric, converting it to Imperial causes problems anyways.

I completely agree with people being brainwashed to use it, I've gotten into arguments with so many teachers about the metric system. They all claim the Imperial system is easier, and makes more sense. Even though the base measurements in the Imperial system are derived from the metric system. And plus, everything in the metric system is based off powers of 10. You just have to memorize all the measurements in the Imperial system, you can't figure it out by knowing the prefixes and whatnot.

Sorry for the rant. If you can't tell, I despise the Imperial system.

[Dave In Indy]

Being I work for large automaker "x" working with hybrids and fuel cell vehicles of all types, chalk me up to skeptical at best that Yikes creation. Bravo for trying, but once you get into energy density and hydrogen you are actually breaking even at best. You said it in your fuel economy that you were seeing 36 m.p.g with it on and 35.9 with it off. I hate to break it to you, but electroylsis is the least efficient way to produce Hydrogen. Hydrogen is more of a battery if you will when you get into energy density. You get out of it about what you put in it. There is no such thing as "free energy". It's a neat Mr. Wizard science expirement, but does not realistically work. Didn't mythbusters already prove all this once?

[dirocyn]

Ya know, Dave--these guys aren't trying to sell anybody spark-plug fluid, their theory is that a little H2 acts as a catalyst, and they're using electricity that otherwise would have gone to charging a full battery. It's not "free energy," but energy that would otherwise be wasted. Can you get a 0.4 mpg increase by adjusting the alternator? I bet you can.

I still suspect the hydrogen has already recombined into water by the time the spark plug fires, and that it's already flashed to steam by the time the spark plug fires. A little bit of atomized water in through the intake could do everything they're seeing.

[Pilot]

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[Medusa]

OMG TEH SNAK OYL CURED MY CANCIR!

[lovely09]

The key advantage of hydrogen is that when burned,carbon dioxide is not produced.Clearly, hydrogen is less of a pollutant in the air because it omits little tail pipe pollution.Hydrogen has the potential to run a fuel-cell engine with greater efficiency over an internal combustion engine.The same amount of hydrogen will take a fuel-cell car at least twice as far as a car running on gasoline.