Hydrogen On Demand

[yikes]

The ultimate goal while working with hydrogen is to be able to run an engine with the hydrogen produced by that same engine. It is possible. It has been done. You won't accomplish that by reading this material. But maybe this can be your starting point. Maybe YOU are the one that will cause this to happen. This could turn into your life's work. Maybe water is more elegant than what you previously thought.

I have been experimenting with water with that goal in mind. I use a small test cell to try different ideas. http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...ontest0002.jpg
But working in the lab (fancy name, basement shop) daily with no grease under my nails lacks something,,,something tangible. So I wanted to get out to the car with,,with,,well a booster. Something I could put in my car to make me feel like I have accomplished something.
I found online a starting point. A Smack's Booster. It was configured wrong (in my mind, not his), but that was easily changed. But the housing and parts were cheap, available and strong enough. It took two days to get the materials $80, one day to build it and one day to put it in the car. I have not regretted the decision, it has been a lot of fun. The car runs better, gets better mileage, runs cooler and the booster helps keep the combustion chamber clean. And you can have one too for just $4000.

Just kidding.
I have seen online similar units of varying quality with outrageous prices. I did not want anyone here to get ripped off, so I offered to write about this booster and hydrogen. This then is what follows.

FIRST and always FIRST,,,safety. Hydrogen is dangerous. In the lab I scoop up some bubbles of H (hydrogen) and light it with a lighter. It goes crack. Like a large firecracker. H with O (oxygen) sounds like "shot". Now understand, this is just a couple of bubbles. Make that a cupful and parts of your room disappear. Make that a larger amount and just guess what disappears next. Of course you would not try that with gasoline, because you respect and are familiar with gasoline. You will need to take time to become familiar with H as well. Don't be scared, just respectful.

H is a proton and an electron. H bonds with another H very strongly. Those two bond with O kinda well (scientic term). Some think that instead of H2O, it should be called H1.5O, because half of the time one of the H's is out mingling with other O's (I mean they are not married yet, so he's got a right to play around,,,right?). Splitting H from O is not difficult, splitting H and H apart is a little tougher. Getting monatomic H is desirable because it is at least 4 times more powerful than an H H molecule. H H molecule is 2.5 more powerful than gasoline, it burns 1000 times faster than gasoline. The stoic number for H is 34:1. It will take about 23 liters per minute to run your car on H alone. H will burn at 4% with air, up to 96%. At 4% though burning, it won't do much else, at 96% there won't be much left of your motor. After combustion, H reforms with O to produce water and as this is endothermic (takes in heat), it cools your motor and exhaust. If the temperature is high enough, there will also be NOX. If there is some oil residue left in your chamber that will also show up in emissions. But that's it, nothing else. Yea for earth. Gasoline also produces water, so there is no change in your exhaust system (it won't rust out any faster). But if you are running on H alone and don't have to buy gasolene, you could probably afford a stainless steel exhaust, right? But we are just running a booster making 1 to 4 liters a minute which is let into the air stream before the throttle body. On the intake stroke, air, gas and H mix together (DUH), at compression and spark, the H fires quickly, but there is only enough to help vaporize the gas and add a little excitement, the gas is more completely burned and has more power because of this. If there were too much H at this time, it would try to stop the piston, therefore when running on H alone timing would be reset to 10 to 25 degrees after tdc. That is how fast H burns. H can be calmed down by adding water and exhaust, but we need not go into that now. Electrolysis is simply putting positive and negative DC voltage into water. Since pure water is dielectric (won't pass voltage), we can add a catalyst to help with the chore. KOH (potasium hydroxide) is preferred, but I use NaOH (sodium hydroxide) which is just as good and is easier to find (Red Devil Drain Cleaner). I use spring water from Walmart. I think it is necessary. Do not use tap water. Voltage is determined by your battery and your alternator. Amperage is determined by how much catalyst is used. You need a reliable stable water so that you can determine your amps. A 20 amp fuse and 40 amps of catalyst don't work well together. If you ever use tap water you will get brown scum on your plates and container, further you won't know your amp limit.

Enough, I say, enough. Now on to the build.

Go to Home Depot or similar. Get a length of 4" drain pipe, a cap, and a collar with internal threads on one end and a threaded plug for that collar. Thats the housing (you will have to look at your car to determine the best placement and size). (Or go to Kmart and get a "Lock and Lock" container. The pictures show the difference.) Go to the small white tube fitting area and get the rest of your fittings and a length of clear tubing (I use 3/8). Go to the electrical area and get stainless steel blanking plates for work boxes (they look like light switch covers without the hole for the switch). Go to tool area and get a good 1/4 or 3/8 drill bit. Stainless is hard. I like 3/8 better. Get some 1/4" stainless steel nuts, bolts and washers. Also find nylon washers. I get them in a pack of 20. Get some ss spoons or forks or get a ss BBQ tong, these are for electrical connections. You also have my permission to go to your local sheet metal shop and get your metal there (ss304 is okay. 316L is even better). You will also need a nylon threaded rod. I get mine at Graingers. McMaster has them too. 2 foot is $2, get a couple.

Drill 2 1/4" holes in the threaded plug (see pic) make sure the hole is positioned so that a nut will fit (my first unit the nuts were very hard to spin on). The electric straps hang on the 1/4" bolts that go through these holes and also the electric connections are attached to these bolts. The outer strap is positive,,,always. The inner strap goes into the center of the pack of plates and is always negative...always. There is a strap at the bottom of the pack that goes from one side (the positve plate) to the other side of the pack without touching any other plates, electrically making the two outer plates both positive (it is bent into a short U shape). What is happening is that we are creating positive on the outside, the next plate will be bipolar, negative facing out and also positve facing in, yep,,on the same plate (we will call these neutral plates). And without any connection. It's called a series cell. We are forcing the electricity to flow through the solution and the plates. Cute huh. In the center we will connect two plates to the negative. H comes off the negative. O comes off the positive. Drill all the plate holes out to 3/8 (or 1/4 it that is what you choose.) Clean off the drill burrs.
Plate conditioning. Peel off the plastic covering, yes I know you cannot see it, but it's there. Now sand the shine away. We want a cross hatch. Why? Because the bubbles more easily leave the plate at edges and the more the better. I use 80 grit. Be a man, get tough with it. After that put on rubber gloves and wash the plates with soap and water, rinse well with tap water. Now rinse with spring water. Don't touch the plates with your fingers again.
Fashion your electric straps and drill. Cut a length of plastic rod and put a nut on it(not quite as easy as it sounds, the threads are very fragile), put this through your strap and lay on your first plate, put 2 nylon washers on (total 3mm), do the same at the bottom, then next plate, etc. The folded edges face to the middle. When you get to the center, I use whatever is necessary to get the strap to hang straight and be electrically connected to both plates(nuts, ss washers). It is a good idea for the negative strap to be drilled for both top and bottom rod holes. The positive straps only hang down to the top hole. There is another strap that uses the bottom hole (outside plate to outside PLate).
When you get the plates done, take your stuff (scientific term again) out to your car. Pour water in the container and carefully add some NaOH, doesn't matter how much, wait a minute, then put your plates in with the straps up. Get cables (jumper?) connect positive and then negative. Don't be nervous. It won't bite,,,yet. Slowly you will start to see bubbles. You need to let this run for 15 minutes or so. Partly for the plates, partly for you. Keep watching. You should see bubbles coming to the surface, turning and going down into the solution. You may see foam being created. You are charging the water. You are also seeing that it is not exploding,,which is a good thing to learn. Stop and start again as you like. Get comfortable with hydrogen. You should not be in a hurry here. If you have foam, scoop up some bubbles and light them with a lighter. The crack will suprise you. Do not get cocky and try silly stuff, this can hurt you. H is lighter than air, disperses quickly, is not overly harmful if breathed. But inside it can collect on the ceiling and surprise you when you turn on a light. Outside-safe, inside-caution. Nuff said. Okay, now dump out the water, hey it's drain cleaner,,where should I dump it? That process should have produced some brown stuff in the water, that is the iron coming out of the ss plates (we don't like iron in the metal).
Now we need to seal the plates. We want to confine the water in between the plates. The plate edges and bottom and the positive outer plate sides should not touch water. I use DUCT TAPE,,yeah baby, I get to use more duct tape. I do that because I take my unit apart every other day, because I try different stuff. I also use Window Weld (auto parts $15), but that makes it hard to take it apart. Make sure that it seals well, especially the bottom (you have my permission to cuss me at this point,,it is messy). If you pour water in your plate cell, it should stay there. Electricity will try to escape at the plate edges, we don't want that.
I put Goop on the bolt holes to help seal them. And around the top of the large threaded plug, not on the threads, just around the joint. It can be scraped off. This is not necessary until after you are comfortable with your unit,,say two weeks. I also put an angle tube connector on the side of the drain pipe close to the top and one at the bottom (seal well) with clear tubing connecting them. This will show the water level. You can also install a threaded tube with a cap so that adding water is easy. Adding water is at least once a week.
So you would now like to get the H from this container to your car. I use 3/8" tubing. Drill a hole in the top of your "generator' "electrolyser" "booster", if you do it well the fitting will screw in (Goop it anyway), short tube, angle, short tube, angle, to the .....oh yeah, the bubbler.
A bubbler is the only acceptable safety device that works,,,yeah, I know,,you know a better one. Well, no you do not. They are not fast enough. If your car backfired, or if your intake valve floated, the flashback would immediately blow apart your booster, and other assorted goodies. A bubbler is just a container for water that prevents a flashback from going further. It also cleans the H, by holding back any NaOH, which is important. It is a good thing. I just use a length of 1 1/4 clear tubing, see pic,,the fittings just press fit in and will pop out if they need to.
I put the hose from the bubbler into the rubber tube between the afm and the throttle body. It works well there and gives me some vacuum that helps pull the H out of the solution.
Electrical: I get 12v from the window wiper switch to a switch I put in below it. I ran that wire (run 2 or 3 wires, they may come in handy) to a relay by the booster. (a relay is a switch with a small positive wire coming into it, a small negative wire leaving it. The relay also has two heavy wires coming and going. The relay is an electrical switch; the small wires operate the switch and the large wires are then connected ). I ran a 4 guage wire from the battery positive to a house circuit breaker 30 amp (yes I did and it works). From the cb through the relay to the booster.
Well, I'm tired of writing. The pictures will explain most of this anyway, but I will answer any questions you have. And while you build this, think of what it will mean when you or someone discovers the method to generate enough H from water to power an engine. Just imagine that and you will see how beautifully elegant water really is. bob


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...2plate0005.jpg


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http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...2plate0003.jpg


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...2plate0002.jpg


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...2plate0001.jpg


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...ooster0003.jpg


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...ooster0002.jpg


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...ooster0001.jpg


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...ertest0002.jpg


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...rkplug0003.jpg


http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x...switch0001.jpg


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[canadam]

Very interesting, Bob.

[Davis]

A fun read.

[Weasy2k]

heheh man that is wicked...im already in the design phase for my 1uz tacoma project...great info!

[Gairloch]

Bob, how will this impact power? Will it increase or decrease the likelihood of detonation?

[yikes]

There is a little more power in that it is noticeable that I do not push the gas pedal down as far as normal to go a certain speed. But you are also taking away power by forcing the alternator to work harder.
As for detonation, I have very little knowledge on that. I have never had that happen to me on a stock car. I can say that the fuel is more completely burned and that the motor is cooler. Those two things cause me to think that there is less chance for detonation.
I have been wanting to get out to an autox so that I can test accurately, but I have not been able to get out of the lab.

Now when running on Hydrogen alone, there is less power if nothing else is changed. It is difficult to load the cylinder with a gaseous fuel, much easier with a liquid. Gasoline takes up about 4% of the combustion chamber, whereas Hydrogen will need about 20% of the space. To offset that, Hydrogen is more easily compressed, so it is normal to increase the compression ratio or simply add a turbo to get the same effect. Also too with Hydrogen, there is no carbon to build up. It's very clean.

I'm building now a 40 plate unit and my goal is to hit 50 mpg. We will see.

[canadam]

Great, now if anything ever happens to yikes, we can chalk it up to a corporate conspiracy

[CRJpilot]

Or his hydrogen tank exploding.

[CRJpilot]

How often do you refill the water tank? Where do you introduce the hydrogen to the engine?

I like how organized & well stocked your shop appears to be!

[Gairloch]

^^ sorry for the thread jack; Good to see another Minneapolis guy around

[Hellstorm]

TIGHT
how much to build that... i dont want to read all of that.

[Gairloch]

I think he said in the thread he first referred to it in as costing him just over $100

[yikes]

Well, the 40 plate design was a moderate success. I was able to produce about 5 liters a minute. But I also created way too much heat. So I tore it apart and have made a new configuration. I will test it tomorrow.

[Gairloch]

Thanks for the update, yikes!

What are you changing in order to reduce the heat generation?

Do you have any idea what the optimal output is?

[mopwer]

Again, how often does the water have to be topped off? Do you have to add more catalyst? So the only way the water can enter the plates is in through the top? This limits the useable space for water in the container. If the level drops below the top of the plate pack, no H, right?

Greg

[yikes]

@mopower, not quite. This is a series cell design, therefore current is forced to go through the plates and through the water. The water is kept contained between each plate. Leakage must not be allowed because the electricity wants the path of least resistance which would be to bypass the plates.
The water level drops about 1/2 inch on a 200 mile drive. Lots of variables in that though. So worrying about the water level is not a real concern. As the water level lowers there is less plate area submerged and therefore less H being produced, but the concentration of NaOH in the water is now higher which raises the amps which produces more H. It's kinda self leveling. The NaOH stays in the solution so adding water is all that is needed. (disclaimer: a little NaOH gets transported to the bubbler, which I simply pour back in the cell once a month or so).

@Gairloch. The 40 plate stack was made in ten 4 cell sections. Each section was receiving the 13+volts, so 4/13=3.4volts. That is way too much. 1.4 volts is a good number to shoot for. But as I am still experimenting I try lots of different things. To be able to run on H alone I need 23 liters a minute of H. If I can get that amount using an acceptable number of amps and excess heat is created, I have ways of dealing with the heat. Plate spacing and concentration of NaOH is also of importance regarding production and heat.

I have another unit in the car now which is a series of 7 cells with two 6 cells thrown in just to keep me confused. Initial test were producing 4lpm. I am now raising the concentration until I get excess heat,,,just takes time. Also putting in an amp meter by the unit just to make life a little easier.

Optimal output? Well Faraday made the damn law and I'm trying to break it. My attempt at humor.

For those without enough time to read this, I simply say that this is not for you yet. This must be considered dangerous and is not a toy. When there is sufficient knowledge, someone will put it in a pretty package and even give you a decal to put on your window.

If anyone is building this, I request that you send a PM so that I can help you with some of the technical and safety stuff.

There is of course more going on than what I post here. Small steps, Ellie, small steps.

[yikes]

I am being told now that I have created over unity. Cool.

[yikes]

nevermind,,,,SOMEBODY was using wrong numbers.

[Weasy2k]

I have to agree with yikes on that if you dont have the time to sit down and research everything then dont bother do it at all because its defiantly not something to really mess with.

I spent the last couple years reading about this stuff and am just starting to collect the parts needed to do the work.

Yikes: have you thought about dropping the input voltage? I have read that some people go down to 2volts and have had the best results with output and longer lasting plates.

[yikes]

Hi Weasy, 1.4 volts per cell is a good number (actually 1.24 is scientifically optimum.) But that is per cell. So if you have 7 cells at 13.8 volts (1.8 per cell), you are in the ball park. BTW, the plates will never wear out.
So with 7 cells per stack and you have 10 stacks, each stack getting 13.8 volts,,,it comes down to how many amps can your altenator produce. 200 amp alt going into 10 stacks = 20 amps per stack max. 80 amp alt = 8 amp per,,etc. You control amps with the concentration of electrolyte. And this is why it is necessary to have a good fuse or circuit breaker,,,everyone puts in too much the first time and blows the circuit. .1 Normal is most often too much.

My last booster at 2000rpm sat at 24 amp and was popping out 4.5 liter a minute. I didn't like the design so I tore it apart and am now making another.

Aluminum must never touch any part of this. Word to the wise.