Engine Suggestions welcome.

JDS2121 · 01-18-2006, 10:03 PM

First of all I'd like to say I'm new to the forums, and new to doing anything serious to cars aside from minor parts replacement or repairs. Also the basics of my auto are that it's an '87 MR2 MkI, and just recently the altenator completely locked up on it taking the belt along with it. I've known for awhile that I have been needing to change the waterpump, as well as install a new radiator due to a rather decent size leak. I also decided that since the car will be down for awhile that I should go through and replace everything I can in the suspension system.

This all in mind I want to give the car some more power. Right now the engine is stock, N/A, and and distributor based ignition system. I can't be for certain but I'm sure that the engine is the original, the car itself has 140k miles on it. The problem I'm having is I'm trying to decide if I should just invest in different exhaust manifold and other minor upgrades, or if I should try doing a swap to a 4AGE 20v engine. I'm also open to other suggestions that don't require a great degree of complication since this will most likely be my first project.

CpuZapper · 01-19-2006, 10:08 PM

I'm at work right now, but I'll give ya a nice response as soon as I get a chance. I'm sure I can answer some of your questions, and give you lots to think (or dream about).

JDS2121 · 01-20-2006, 10:16 PM

Something I should have noted is that I am pretty confident doing electrical wiring of any kind, as long as I have some schematics to follow. If I go the 20v direction I'm planning to at least try for an CR slightly higher than stock, but I'm hoping to keep the timing the same as stock so I can use the swap ECU to get a feel for the engine before doing anything drastic.

CpuZapper · 01-23-2006, 02:39 AM

Alrighty - down to business shall we?

You say that you are new to doing serious work to cars minus minor repairs and maintanence. With that in mind... put some consideration in before deciding to do the 20v swap. I mean, it's not that it's really hard, but you will have to do some fabrication to get coolant and exhaust to work right. If I remember correctly, the mounts are the same, so it should bolt in ok (You'll need to use your stock flywheel if you want to use the tranny already in the car). There is a lot of electrical work in getting a 20v to work, and if you're good at electrical, but not very experienced at in-depth auto work, I wouldn't attempt it - I mean, I know these cars inside and out, and a 20v swap kinda intimidates me. Also, the 20v does already have higher than 16v compression. I think it's somewhere around 10.3:1, but I'm too lazy to go check my manuals.

Install a used radiator - I'm sure someone here has one. It's a lot cheaper than trying to find a new one. Just flush it, and all your hardlines really well. The waterpump is fairly easy to replace, and while you've got all that stuff pulled off you might as well do the timing belt, idler, cam seals, and crank key (a decent shop manual will walk you through the process without any trouble).

Hmm... next you mentioned the stock dizzy. There is nothing wrong with a dizzy ignition system. Look at the turbos, they use them. Granted, some people spend the time and money setting up a DLI system, but for an NA, or turbo not racing, or making copious amounts of power, the stock system works fine. Installing an MSD will net you little gain - Toyota already did a damn good job with the ignition system. Best just to use some good NGK Solid Copper plugs (I change mine every 6k miles, or every trackday/auto-x/rally/whatever) just cause I like to keep them fresh. I also replace my cap and rotor about every 6k. I realize it's excessive, but I like having good solid spark all the time - especially with forced induction (before my turbo blew a turbine seal).

Header - don't mess with it. The stock header should only be replaced if you're putting in some mean cams, or if yours is cracked. Testing has been done, and the stock header is rather good. It will flow just fine. The $350 it will cost for one could be put to way better use somewhere else. I think only maybe 1 or 2 companies even make a header for the AW11 - I've never really looked to see who is still making them. You might consider a different exhaust (pull the cat too) but not for flow - only for the weight saved. I've used a couple different exhausts and the only thing that made a difference was one of them was messed up and was choked to about 1 1/2" after the cat in an attempt to get it to pass CA smog. Anything over 6k felt like crap. Other than that, they all feel the same to me. You will get a little more zing in the top end (maybe 4 or 5 hp if that) by getting rid of the stock intake system, and just mounting a filter directly to the AFM (there's writeups, and I'm working on a sturdy rally-grade kit) and the AFM to the throttle body.

The biggest gain you will get with these cars is in the suspension. Get some Tokico, or Koni adjustable shocks, Eibach pro-kit springs, the High&Tight/Prothane bushings, High&Tight rear swaybar (or if you like oversteer mess around with a new set of front endlinks, and a '92 turbo rear sway - you can also get the suspension techniques front and rear sway kit), a front strut bar, better brake pads (Porterfield R4S, Hawk HPS) and new rotors, stainless brake lines and clutch line, short shift kit, and get some decent rubber on it. I like light 15" wheels, with 205 width sticky tires. I have 16"s on mine, and there's just not enough feel to them. The sidewall is too stiff, and too hard to tell when you're pushing past the envelope. Also, consider a smaller steering wheel like a Momo (11.8" in mine). Also, Lotek makes a gauge pod which covers part of the a-pillar. Not too bad of a piece, but watch out when you're installing it that you don't drill through any of the rubber drain tubes in the body a-pillar (assuming it's a sunroof). Check out www.twosrus.com as they have a lot of this stuff for decent prices.

I know Eibach for a short while wasn't making our springs, but they have released a new batch. The TRDs, if you can find them, are supposed to be a bit stiffer, but I think the Eibachs are pretty darn good, and do the job well. Some people kinda hack a Miata coilover set to make them work, but it worries me that at full unload, there is a gap between the spring and perch. I would really prefer a coilover kit that is designed for this car, and fits correctly (only because my car does occasionally see airtime - blown a few cheap struts too but no springs... like I said, I like the Eibachs).

Also, upgrading the ECU won't really do anything for you with a stock 20v or 16v motor. Changing fuel and ignition timing may gain 1hp or so, not enough to notice, or make the cost worth it. The only reason to go to a standalone is if you're going to turbo or sc the car, or are going to spend the huge amount of money it costs to make NA power with cams and other head and bottom end modifications. Toyota really did tap most of the available power out of these motors.

TedComponents - http://www.tedcomponents.com/4ag.htm - can make you an awesome head and cam setup, but it costs a pretty penny, and will not net you a whole lot unless you want to sacrifice all your bottom end for more top end. The best way to make more power (after you get all your suspension fixed up) is to do a GZE swap and either put on a bigger pulley (NonStopTuning - http://www.nonstoptuning.com/pKitToyMR2GZ.htm) or make it turbo. You get the bottom end grunt and the top end scream. The 20v is fun for people who can keep it on the redline all the time, but for a car that you're going to drive a lot, the GZE/GTE is a better option. I can answer lots of questions about that setup too.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

EDIT: You could also consider a lightened flywheel. They improve the on and off throttle response of the 4ag a lot. If you plan on going with a GZE, get a GZE one, as it will handle the torque and your clutch will last longer. Also, if you go with a GTE, look at a megasquirt running the megasquirt-n-spark extra firmware. I have a writeup from JamesL over on the ***** as to how to make it work with the stock wiring harness, and stock ignition system.

mr2greasemonkey · 01-27-2006, 12:15 AM

like i said on the other post....blown 3tc, yeah baby!

JDS2121 · 01-27-2006, 10:53 PM

Looks like I'll most likely reconsider doing a GZE for a swap. Seems like it might be alittle easier to do than a 20v swap. I'll be able to really dig into all this work once I find a suitable 350 engine for my 77 Buick Regal. At least I know that car will serve me far better than this 95 Ford Taurus with over 200k miles on it that I'm using now. I say this because going from driving the MR2 to this Taurus wasn't exactly what I call a good switch. It's probably because I'm far to use to driving with a standard than dealing with an automatic slug like the Taurus is.

In any case I know the first parts I'll work on will be the engine so I can at least move the car. Second thing I'll do is fixing up the suspension, and the minor body work I have to do on the quarter panels due to rust. Any kind of swap or engine rebuild I do will come after I have the car looking and handling like I want it to.

01-18-2006, 10:03 PM	#1 (permalink)
JDS2121 No Skills Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Engine Suggestions welcome. First of all I'd like to say I'm new to the forums, and new to doing anything serious to cars aside from minor parts replacement or repairs. Also the basics of my auto are that it's an '87 MR2 MkI, and just recently the altenator completely locked up on it taking the belt along with it. I've known for awhile that I have been needing to change the waterpump, as well as install a new radiator due to a rather decent size leak. I also decided that since the car will be down for awhile that I should go through and replace everything I can in the suspension system. This all in mind I want to give the car some more power. Right now the engine is stock, N/A, and and distributor based ignition system. I can't be for certain but I'm sure that the engine is the original, the car itself has 140k miles on it. The problem I'm having is I'm trying to decide if I should just invest in different exhaust manifold and other minor upgrades, or if I should try doing a swap to a 4AGE 20v engine. I'm also open to other suggestions that don't require a great degree of complication since this will most likely be my first project.

01-23-2006, 02:39 AM	#4 (permalink)
CpuZapper RallyRacer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 482 Thanks: 7 Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Alrighty - down to business shall we? You say that you are new to doing serious work to cars minus minor repairs and maintanence. With that in mind... put some consideration in before deciding to do the 20v swap. I mean, it's not that it's really hard, but you will have to do some fabrication to get coolant and exhaust to work right. If I remember correctly, the mounts are the same, so it should bolt in ok (You'll need to use your stock flywheel if you want to use the tranny already in the car). There is a lot of electrical work in getting a 20v to work, and if you're good at electrical, but not very experienced at in-depth auto work, I wouldn't attempt it - I mean, I know these cars inside and out, and a 20v swap kinda intimidates me. Also, the 20v does already have higher than 16v compression. I think it's somewhere around 10.3:1, but I'm too lazy to go check my manuals. Install a used radiator - I'm sure someone here has one. It's a lot cheaper than trying to find a new one. Just flush it, and all your hardlines really well. The waterpump is fairly easy to replace, and while you've got all that stuff pulled off you might as well do the timing belt, idler, cam seals, and crank key (a decent shop manual will walk you through the process without any trouble). Hmm... next you mentioned the stock dizzy. There is nothing wrong with a dizzy ignition system. Look at the turbos, they use them. Granted, some people spend the time and money setting up a DLI system, but for an NA, or turbo not racing, or making copious amounts of power, the stock system works fine. Installing an MSD will net you little gain - Toyota already did a damn good job with the ignition system. Best just to use some good NGK Solid Copper plugs (I change mine every 6k miles, or every trackday/auto-x/rally/whatever) just cause I like to keep them fresh. I also replace my cap and rotor about every 6k. I realize it's excessive, but I like having good solid spark all the time - especially with forced induction (before my turbo blew a turbine seal). Header - don't mess with it. The stock header should only be replaced if you're putting in some mean cams, or if yours is cracked. Testing has been done, and the stock header is rather good. It will flow just fine. The $350 it will cost for one could be put to way better use somewhere else. I think only maybe 1 or 2 companies even make a header for the AW11 - I've never really looked to see who is still making them. You might consider a different exhaust (pull the cat too) but not for flow - only for the weight saved. I've used a couple different exhausts and the only thing that made a difference was one of them was messed up and was choked to about 1 1/2" after the cat in an attempt to get it to pass CA smog. Anything over 6k felt like crap. Other than that, they all feel the same to me. You will get a little more zing in the top end (maybe 4 or 5 hp if that) by getting rid of the stock intake system, and just mounting a filter directly to the AFM (there's writeups, and I'm working on a sturdy rally-grade kit) and the AFM to the throttle body. The biggest gain you will get with these cars is in the suspension. Get some Tokico, or Koni adjustable shocks, Eibach pro-kit springs, the High&Tight/Prothane bushings, High&Tight rear swaybar (or if you like oversteer mess around with a new set of front endlinks, and a '92 turbo rear sway - you can also get the suspension techniques front and rear sway kit), a front strut bar, better brake pads (Porterfield R4S, Hawk HPS) and new rotors, stainless brake lines and clutch line, short shift kit, and get some decent rubber on it. I like light 15" wheels, with 205 width sticky tires. I have 16"s on mine, and there's just not enough feel to them. The sidewall is too stiff, and too hard to tell when you're pushing past the envelope. Also, consider a smaller steering wheel like a Momo (11.8" in mine). Also, Lotek makes a gauge pod which covers part of the a-pillar. Not too bad of a piece, but watch out when you're installing it that you don't drill through any of the rubber drain tubes in the body a-pillar (assuming it's a sunroof). Check out www.twosrus.com as they have a lot of this stuff for decent prices. I know Eibach for a short while wasn't making our springs, but they have released a new batch. The TRDs, if you can find them, are supposed to be a bit stiffer, but I think the Eibachs are pretty darn good, and do the job well. Some people kinda hack a Miata coilover set to make them work, but it worries me that at full unload, there is a gap between the spring and perch. I would really prefer a coilover kit that is designed for this car, and fits correctly (only because my car does occasionally see airtime - blown a few cheap struts too but no springs... like I said, I like the Eibachs). Also, upgrading the ECU won't really do anything for you with a stock 20v or 16v motor. Changing fuel and ignition timing may gain 1hp or so, not enough to notice, or make the cost worth it. The only reason to go to a standalone is if you're going to turbo or sc the car, or are going to spend the huge amount of money it costs to make NA power with cams and other head and bottom end modifications. Toyota really did tap most of the available power out of these motors. TedComponents - http://www.tedcomponents.com/4ag.htm - can make you an awesome head and cam setup, but it costs a pretty penny, and will not net you a whole lot unless you want to sacrifice all your bottom end for more top end. The best way to make more power (after you get all your suspension fixed up) is to do a GZE swap and either put on a bigger pulley (NonStopTuning - http://www.nonstoptuning.com/pKitToyMR2GZ.htm) or make it turbo. You get the bottom end grunt and the top end scream. The 20v is fun for people who can keep it on the redline all the time, but for a car that you're going to drive a lot, the GZE/GTE is a better option. I can answer lots of questions about that setup too. Let me know if you have any other questions. EDIT: You could also consider a lightened flywheel. They improve the on and off throttle response of the 4ag a lot. If you plan on going with a GZE, get a GZE one, as it will handle the torque and your clutch will last longer. Also, if you go with a GTE, look at a megasquirt running the megasquirt-n-spark extra firmware. I have a writeup from JamesL over on the ***** as to how to make it work with the stock wiring harness, and stock ignition system. Last edited by CpuZapper; 01-23-2006 at 02:46 AM..

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01-19-2006, 10:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
CpuZapper RallyRacer Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 482 Thanks: 7 Thanked 25 Times in 22 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I'm at work right now, but I'll give ya a nice response as soon as I get a chance. I'm sure I can answer some of your questions, and give you lots to think (or dream about).

01-20-2006, 10:16 PM	#3 (permalink)
JDS2121 No Skills Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Something I should have noted is that I am pretty confident doing electrical wiring of any kind, as long as I have some schematics to follow. If I go the 20v direction I'm planning to at least try for an CR slightly higher than stock, but I'm hoping to keep the timing the same as stock so I can use the swap ECU to get a feel for the engine before doing anything drastic.

01-27-2006, 12:15 AM	#5 (permalink)
mr2greasemonkey Once again....yups Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,658 Thanks: 4 Thanked 63 Times in 42 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	like i said on the other post....blown 3tc, yeah baby!

01-27-2006, 10:53 PM	#6 (permalink)
JDS2121 No Skills Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 8 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Looks like I'll most likely reconsider doing a GZE for a swap. Seems like it might be alittle easier to do than a 20v swap. I'll be able to really dig into all this work once I find a suitable 350 engine for my 77 Buick Regal. At least I know that car will serve me far better than this 95 Ford Taurus with over 200k miles on it that I'm using now. I say this because going from driving the MR2 to this Taurus wasn't exactly what I call a good switch. It's probably because I'm far to use to driving with a standard than dealing with an automatic slug like the Taurus is. In any case I know the first parts I'll work on will be the engine so I can at least move the car. Second thing I'll do is fixing up the suspension, and the minor body work I have to do on the quarter panels due to rust. Any kind of swap or engine rebuild I do will come after I have the car looking and handling like I want it to.