best year/best engine

[justkitteh]

so im looking for a MKI and a reasonable enginge swap... now, i know the laster MR2s can come with cool stuff like t tops and what not, but ive also heard that the earlier ones are lighter and handle better...

also id like to do an engine swap to make more power... and im really not sure whihc engine id like... preferable something that wont cost me an arm and a leg, and preferably something that wont be too complicated...

i had my eye on the 20v swap, but if it makes all of its power at the top of its rev range that just doesnt seem as good as it sounds... tho the idea of it revving to 12k makes my quivver :x even if it would cost rediculess amounts...

and then i was wondering has anyone ever put a renisis in an mr2? that sounds like fun...

thanks for the help

[canadam]

Originally Posted by justkitteh

so im looking for a MKI and a reasonable enginge swap... now, i know the laster MR2s can come with cool stuff like t tops and what not, but ive also heard that the earlier ones are lighter and handle better...

The third generation MR2 is the lightest, and in stock form, handles the best.

Originally Posted by justkitteh

also id like to do an engine swap to make more power... and im really not sure whihc engine id like... preferable something that wont cost me an arm and a leg, and preferably something that wont be too complicated...

If you're going to do a swap, the most common is a 4AGZE swap. If this is the case, save yourself a lot of time and money and just buy a nice Supercharged example, and get yourself the luxury of the T-Tops.

[justkitteh]

Originally Posted by canadam

The third generation MR2 is the lightest, and in stock form, handles the best.

as in the MKIII or third gen MKI and if so what years was that >_<

If you're going to do a swap, the most common is a 4AGZE swap. If this is the case, save yourself a lot of time and money and just buy a nice Supercharged example, and get yourself the luxury of the T-Tops.

i was actually thinking about doing a 20v swap, however ive been doing some reading and the engine doesnt seem to make as much power as id like without conciderable further investment...

i would like to make around 200hp at the wheels n/a... a crazy dream? probably... well see how things shape up tho

[CpuZapper]

I'm feeling lazy today, so I'm going to copy what I posted in another thread or two, and it may answer your questions:

Put some consideration in before deciding to do the 20v swap. I mean, it's not that it's really hard, but you will have to do some fabrication to get coolant and exhaust to work right. If I remember correctly, the mounts are the same, so it should bolt in ok (You'll need to use your stock flywheel if you want to use the tranny already in the car). There is a lot of electrical work in getting a 20v to work, and if you're good at electrical, but not very experienced at in-depth auto work, I wouldn't attempt it - I mean, I know these cars inside and out, and a 20v swap kinda intimidates me. The 20v doesn't rev to 12k though. The silvertop is supposed to be about the same as the 16v, and the blacktop will do 8.3k. The 12k motors are the formula atlantics - be prepared to spend a lot of money, and have crappy drivabiltiy (unless you live in the plains and never have to go below 50mph for anything).

Building an NA motor for lots of power requires a lot of money. There aren't really a lot of performance bolt-ons either. At heart, the 4AG (NA) and the 4AGZ (SC) are more or less the same motor. The 85/86 does have some differences between the 87+ motors (which include the supercharged), but they're not too critical. I would reccomend doing a search for "4AGZE Swap" They're a bit of work, and requre some definate mechanical and electrical knowledge, but it's the best way to get some performance without spending a huge amount of money. Also, the 85/86 NA used a C-50 transmission, and the later NA's used the C-52 both of which are pretty much interchangable (the C-52 has provisions for mounting the starter on either side of the engine), but the SC used the E-51 (pretty much the same internals as the 91 Turbo tranny IIRC). If you put in the E-51 transmission with an SC motor, you will have to modify some of the mounts, and get longer shifter cables and a different set of axles. If you aren't planning on making big power with an SC motor, you can use the C-50 that is already in your car with the stock flywheel from your NA, and save yourself a lot of headache. You'll just spend less time in each gear (1st will fly by like there's no tomorrow) with the extra power. because the NA transmission has shorter gear ratios than the SC. It really is a lot easier/cheaper to stuff in a stock SC and put on a bigger pulley, than try to make big power with the NA. With the SC, you crank up the power with more boost without really affecting drivability, but to make power with the NA means you'll lose some bottom end and drivability.

Header - don't mess with it. The stock header should only be replaced if you're putting in some mean cams, or if yours is cracked. Testing has been done, and the stock header is rather good. It will flow just fine. The $350 it will cost for one could be put to way better use somewhere else. I think only maybe 1 or 2 companies even make a header for the AW11 - I've never really looked to see who is still making them. You might consider a different exhaust (pull the cat too) but not for flow - only for the weight saved. I've used a couple different exhausts and the only thing that made a difference was one of them was messed up and was choked to about 1 1/2" after the cat in an attempt to get it to pass CA smog. Anything over 6k felt like crap. Other than that, they all feel the same to me. You will get a little more zing in the top end (maybe 4 or 5 hp if that) by getting rid of the stock intake system, and just mounting a filter directly to the AFM (there's writeups, and I'm working on a sturdy rally-grade kit) and the AFM to the throttle body.

The biggest gain you will get with these cars is in the suspension. Always Always Always upgrade the suspension before going for big power. Get some Tokico, or Koni adjustable shocks, Eibach pro-kit springs, the High&Tight/Prothane bushings, High&Tight rear swaybar (or if you like oversteer mess around with a new set of front endlinks, and a '92 turbo rear sway - you can also get the suspension techniques front and rear sway kit), a front strut bar, better brake pads (Porterfield R4S, Hawk HPS) and new rotors, stainless brake lines and clutch line, short shift kit, and get some decent rubber on it. I like light 15" wheels, with 205 width sticky tires. I have 16"s on mine, and there's just not enough feel to them. The sidewall is too stiff, and too hard to tell when you're pushing past the envelope. Also, consider a smaller steering wheel like a Momo (11.8" in mine). Also, Lotek makes a gauge pod which covers part of the a-pillar. Not too bad of a piece, but watch out when you're installing it that you don't drill through any of the rubber drain tubes in the body a-pillar (assuming it's a sunroof). Check out www.twosrus.com as they have a lot of this stuff for decent prices.

I know Eibach for a short while wasn't making our springs, but they have released a new batch. The TRDs, if you can find them, are supposed to be a bit stiffer, but I think the Eibachs are pretty darn good, and do the job well. Some people kinda hack a Miata coilover set to make them work, but it worries me that at full unload, there is a gap between the spring and perch. I would really prefer a coilover kit that is designed for this car, and fits correctly (only because my car does occasionally see airtime - blown a few cheap struts too but no springs... like I said, I like the Eibachs).

You could also consider a lightened flywheel. They improve the on and off throttle response of the 4ag a lot. If you plan on going with a GZE, get a GZE one, as it will handle the torque and your clutch will last longer. Also, if you go with a GTE, look at a megasquirt running the megasquirt-n-spark extra firmware. I have a writeup from JamesL over on the ***** as to how to make it work with the stock wiring harness, and stock ignition system.

Also, upgrading the ECU won't really do anything for you with a stock 20v or 16v motor. Changing fuel and ignition timing may gain 1hp or so, not enough to notice, or make the cost worth it. The only reason to go to a standalone is if you're going to turbo or sc the car (and it wasn't turbo or SC already), or are going to spend the huge amount of money it costs to make NA power with cams and other head and bottom end modifications. Toyota really did tap most of the available power out of these motors.

TedComponents - http://www.tedcomponents.com/4ag.htm - can make you an awesome head and cam setup, but it costs a pretty penny, and will not net you a whole lot unless you want to sacrifice all your bottom end for more top end. The best way to make more power (after you get all your suspension fixed up) is to do a GZE swap and either put on a bigger pulley (NonStopTuning - http://www.nonstoptuning.com/pKitToyMR2GZ.htm) or make it turbo. You get the bottom end grunt and the top end scream. The 20v is fun for people who can keep it on the redline all the time, but for a car that you're going to drive a lot, the GZE/GTE is a better option. I can answer lots of questions about that setup too.

A final thing to consider is a 3SGTE swap from a 2nd gen turbo. It's a lot of work with both fabrication, and wiring. You'll get better oomph from the 2L motor, and can make more power than the 4AGTE or 4AGZE, but it's a lot heavier, and a lot of work.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

[justkitteh]

thats exactly what i was looking for... sorry you had to copy it over, i looked around the forum and didnt find anything... i did over look using the search function tho... oh well... i guess then it would be better to just get a car that came with the super charger... but as far as ive heard the later MKIs were heavier and handle worse... is there any truth to that?

and is there a twincharge kit available for the 20v? or the 16v? that always seemed like a nice option, not just running both but having bypass valves and stuff...

im sure i sound wholy unprofessional and almost as tho i have no idea what im talking about... and in truth, thats not compleatly wrong, ive been driving old minis for about 3 years now, my uncle raced them or still does... idunno, hes very vague, but this will be the first car ive owned, and i fully see the reasons not to have it as your first car, but as its far from the first car ive driven i thought id give it a go...

in truth my dream car is a mini thats been frankenstiened by zcars, they rip everything out add a rollcage and a mid mounted hayabusa in a car that weighs 1,322lb... the hayabusa makes ~130 pounds of torque at just 3k rpm and revves all the way to 8k i think... but these dreams are stuffed by the fact that for some reason minis cost like 8k in california wtf...

i wonder if anyones ever put a bike engine in an mr2... theres the hayabusa V8... hmm... i think ill start another thread about that... >.>~

[canadam]

Finding a twin charge kit (for the 16V) is near impossible, you'll have to make 1.

[CpuZapper]

No worries about the work involved. I like helping the community.

They re-designed the later model mk1s to a suspension that was "more predictable, and safer for the inexperienced driver" (or something similar). In other words, they used bigger struts, and removed the rear sway (except on SCs). There were some other changes in suspension such (there were a lot more than these though overall) as slightly different hubs, bigger brakes, etc. The only advantage I can see is the larger brakes, though as far as I know, no one has tested to see if they actually stop better. The later models are also a bit heavier, but not much. The SC is a couple hundred pounds more than the NA.

There is no twin charge kit ever produced (as far as I know) for a 20v, as the twincharge kit was only designed to go on the SC. They are extremely extremely hard to find (last I heard Ken Tokowitz had two of the manifolds, and some electronics, but it's been years since I talked to him). HKS also made just straight turbo kits for the NA with bigger injectors, and a piggyback F-Con fuel controller, but good luck finding one. They're almost as rare as the twincharge (watch out, some people on e-bay like to try and sell their AE86 HKS turbo manifolds (which aren't too rare) as AW11, but they don't fit without re-working the engine compartment. Twincharge setups are pretty crazy too. I agree... trying to run all the bypass valves and whatnot is a pain without the original purpose built HKS electronics and hardware.

I've always liked the original mini, but I have a strong bias against FF cars (front engine, front wheel drive). I think the only time again I'll ever own something other than MR is either a FR (or AWD) rally car or truck to haul the car. A frankenstein'd mini doesn't sound too bad. On that weight, just wait till we get d962r's car going. Mid engined, nearly the same weight, and more power... Also, I've heard rumors that the 4ag was loosely based off of a bike motor (or maybe it was the head), but I think it's more of a clone of the Cosworth BDA.

Well, keep us posted on whatever you end up doing. I'm outta here - My girlfriend just made breakfast and I need to eat before it gets cold.

[mr2greasemonkey]

3tc with a blower, heeeeeh!

[justkitteh]

how are you managing that weight cpuzapper? doesnt the mki weight like 2500lbs? and by the way... zcars has a twin engined version with 400bhp... that weighs 1,433lbs but with carbon flip fronts and whats not... yea... :P

whenever i get thinking about engine swaps my mind keeps wandering back to putting a 2JZ-GTE in a 240z *drools* 350@5600bhp 335@3600tq rawr

anywho, im going to find some engines that look like they would be nice in the mki mr2... ill post my musings... i guess theyll all be toyota because those would probably be an easier swap ya? a vtec might be nice tho :X

[justkitteh]

kay, well... one sleepless night of engine swapping fantacies later... ive decided that a 1GZ-FE swap was just stupid... and started thinking rationaly boooo no fun

oh well... so ive come to terms with my insanity and decided on an 85 mr2 as it still has the "unsafe" suspention as that guy from lotus said it should be, they changed it in 86 because of the over steer cherictaristics

engine wise ive decided on either a 4A-GZE from 91-95 if posible or a silver top... i know the black top makes 5 more bhp but as the internals are even thinner it would make it less modable... or well... you know what i mean

i might stray off and do a 3S-GTE... but as im not a huge fan of fabrication its a big well see

so for now which is better, the 20v or the gze? the gze has more low down torque ya, but the 20v has more top end power... id like to see some power numbers of the stock engines... like... numbers at 1k numbers at 2k and so on... :| idunno, everything i come across is pretty vague

[CpuZapper]

Umm... d962r's car is a fiberglass porsche 962 body over a custom made steel tube race chassis with a mid mounted 4AGTE. That's how it's that light. Should provice some good downforce too. I'll see if I can find you some dyno plots of a 4AGZ vs 20v. I would still take a GZE + NST pulley over a silver top any day. Should be good for around 160-170 or so with lots more torque, more with a good intercooler, water injection, and other goodies. Consider 145 hp from the stock GZE, and then add 5 lbs more boost with an NST, then put in an ST165 A2W Intercooler w/big heat exhanger, and an aquamist water injection system. For the same price as a silver top and all the stuff to install it, you can put in a GZE, and do all the aforementioned mods.

[justkitteh]

well, im spent =3 gze sounds the best...

also... my friends and i have been talking about this twin charging system... and it keeps making me quite excited... so id like to get a block that wouldnt die under 2 bars of boost ^^;;; idunno... we were talking about the gze beign a nice starting point... specially since others were interested in it as well... however a twincharged engine that revs to 9k+ makes me happy in pants :x

idunno... for a twincharge set up a 3sgte might be best

please dont bother telling me im fickle... i have ADD like a mother... but usually things turn out very well in the end... so... i guess its not bad...

since im doing this twincharge thing already maybe i could sell the bits not including the blowers as a kit... hmmm... maybe, thats a long time coming tho because well... ya

and ya... fiberglass space frame porsche with the engine in the right place... seems strong

lol, c zars does a mini with that spec 0-60 in like 2.7 seconds i think? rediculess... its a bike engine tho, so geared as it is it tops out at 150... however no clutch needed to shift because its a bike engine... so... awsome

[Supa Fast]

Hmm i would probally would have to recommend a 4agze or a REdtop 7 rib 4age . if you dont want to spend a custom fab a 3sgte then this is the only way

[seven_mgte]

Originally Posted by CpuZapper

In other words, they used bigger struts, and removed the rear sway (except on SCs).

Good info in this thread.

Just a note on this however, not all SCs came with the sway bar. I believe it was kind of a random amount of 88s that did, and all 89s.

Ask me how I know

[justkitteh]

Originally Posted by seven_mgte

Good info in this thread.

Just a note on this however, not all SCs came with the sway bar. I believe it was kind of a random amount of 88s that did, and all 89s.

Ask me how I know

how do you know

[supermr2]

Originally Posted by seven_mgte

Good info in this thread.

Just a note on this however, not all SCs came with the sway bar. I believe it was kind of a random amount of 88s that did, and all 89s.

Ask me how I know

Actually all the '89 had the rear bar and the 88's did not. However half way through the 88 year the mounting tabs can be found on the strut housings.

[justkitteh]

Originally Posted by supermr2

Actually all the '89 had the rear bar and the 88's did not. However half way through the 88 year the mounting tabs can be found on the strut housings.

they ran out of parts >.> el oh el zee