Rain+Cone Airfilter question

[muffinman]

Originally Posted by LokiRx7

The first time I EVER cleaned mt K&N years ago I used too much of the spray oil on the filter (It wasnt turning red, I was young so I kept adding... stupid mistake I learned from it)

So explain to me, WHY did the Rx-7 not start and WHY did I have to do a full carb rebuild and scrape oil out of all the air passages and some fuel passages in the carb? Why if air will just pass through DID IT PULL OIL THROUGH THE FILTER??? (And it didnt atomize it, it literally sucked liquid oil off of the filter and into the throat of the carb, thats how strong the intake pulses were)

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

Oil is pulled through the "filter" when your pcv splashes oil... you must have too much crankcase pressure in your 12A that is enough for oil to get through the PCV. Further, at a starting cranking speed there isn't enough vacuum to pull the oil through, this probably occurred at high RPM. If you really think you can refute this, I would like you to include the actual math. Physics don't lie in that lighter particles will move through the path of least resistance. If the oil was getting pulled through, then the area that had been oil soaked was large enough or your air filter was too small to accomodate for the required amount of air for that given RPM.

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

Sorry if I actually read what you said and know what I am talking about.

[toyotaspeed90]

I'll admit... that's funny... I've just been looking at this when on break at work.... and that was out of context

if you rebuilt your carb because of oil coming off of your air filter, then wow..... you do realize that the fuel will burn the oil off.... and "fuel passages in the carb".... now I know you're lying or don't know what you're talking about..... the only thing in the carb that the air/oil mixture could have contaminated anything fuel related would be the jets... which typically face downwards and the air moving across it can't actually "access" it.... all of the fuel systems should have positive pressure in them..... again, defying physics.

if my smallport/megasquirted mr2 wasn't piled under so much junk I would tape dunking the filter in water and starting the car.... but I can barely muster the motivation to do work to a car that needs it let alone prove that a wet filter will allow air to pass through, allowing the car to start.

[toyotaspeed90]

Now that I'm at home..... and have a little extra time to collect thoughts....

fact of the matter is that if you want to use a heatshield as a water shield due to the engine lid vent... go ahead... but really you're just installing an unnecessary accessory.

And to use an AW11, an ae92 gts, and an ae86 GTS, all of which are over 20 years old with who knows what engne variances, all have different drivetrain setups, different driving styles, probably different engine blocks, probably slightly varied timing.... and then compare air filters to all of them which might affect performance on a 4age by 1% is a horrible comparison.... you might as well compare your air filter on one of these cars and on a civic....

[efx]

Well, I just bumped into this filter thread and thought it was cool, then I hit the middle and wow, hey I won't get into anything with anyone. I just got a setup, but I will need to add the ac line into it which it does not have. The reason I thought I try this is to make room, the stock one moves a bit and sometimes air gets in through the old elbow. The old clamps suck. And I just want to see what the difference is between this and stock. Thanks for the rainguard info though. If they sell those at the local auto parts then that's even better. Still cleaning the stuff I got. For those that have this setup, how did you get your ac lines on this thing. Pictures anyone. I saw the padandwheels, but I wonder if anyone has actually tapped a hole on the body.

As for water and sparks, they don't mix. I remember going through some big puddles on an old celica with carbs and man if that thing got the slightest water, the car would just almost die. Oh yeah, I just did a little engine cleaning and the truth is you can't avoid getting water on the engine. Trust me, let's just say the spark plugs were flooded so the engine turned, but will not turn on. Then again, it's common sense, I just had to add that in here.

Here's an exercise you guys can do, close your mouth, pinch your nose and then try to breath? All I know is that anything that needs breathing and can't, will DIE! LOL. I Really have to stop procrastinating...ahhhh

[muffinman]

Originally Posted by efx

For those that have this setup, how did you get your ac lines on this thing. Pictures anyone. I saw the padandwheels, but I wonder if anyone has actually tapped a hole on the body.

it works just fine but obviously start with a very small hole and keep test fitting as you go so it's not too big.

Originally Posted by efx

Here's an exercise you guys can do, close your mouth, pinch your nose and then try to breath? All I know is that anything that needs breathing and can't, will DIE! LOL. I Really have to stop procrastinating...ahhhh

I'll have to try that later.

but i would like to add to your exercise by adding that in theory if you submerge yourself under water you should still be able to breath fresh air through the water from the surface because air will filter through the water safely.

[toyotaspeed90]

You guys need to read what is being written.

I clearly stated that you will have a problem when the filter is completely submerged under water... that is when hydrolock occurs and that's why AEM designed the bypass filter for CAI setups.

Now.... to add to your stupid exercise..... to prove what I am stating.... put 1/2 of your mouth underwater and breathe... surprise surprise, you can breathe... because the heavier water is staying low and the lighter air can get by.... Similarly, to give yourself a filter in a time of need you can dampen a t-shirt and breathe through it.... the damp shirt will catch contaminants while you can still breathe through it. It won't be as easy, but you'll be just fine.

[efx]

Toyo, I get it. I was just messing around. Don't take it personally. Sometimes I come here just to get away from reading my homework. It helps me calm down a bit. Class is stressing me out a bit so you see, I mean nothing bad. Most guys here are pretty nice, and yeah once in a while you may find one that just won't stop. But don't worry I'm done, I did learn something even though it wasn't always agreed upon as to who is right or who is wrong. Like I said before, I always learn something new. I didn't know about the heatshields so now I do. You can take is as you like since I know it's harder to figure out if someone is being mean or serious or kidding when reading anything online.

[toyotaspeed90]

Heh... usually I am one of those people who just won't stop....

I consider myself a "right fighter".... to give you an idea... I took a day off and went to court over a $10 parking ticket several years back.... If I get a speeding ticket and I was in the wrong... I pay it... if the officer made a mistake, then I fight it.

This is getting really off topic.... but

I've learned on these cars through the years.... and being a member on MR2OC never really helped much... In the past when I found myself at a point where I didn't know what to do, I would ask for help on there and those that actually know the answers wouldn't respond.... this turned into delays and higher costs. I come on to these forums now with much more experience -- I include what I have or haven't done -- try not to comment when I don't have experience on something specifically unless I think I can speculate based on facts elsewhere and experience. I don't want to be one of those members on OC (like ITA_MR2... Bill Strong, etc) who usually don't add much to the conversation (with the rare exception) and usually only post when it has to do with their projects. I've also learned that when I have a question I either just spend the time to figure it out myself in the garage or I will ask the one person who might know... call him a friend or a mentor.... but he's more than twice my age and has more years of experience with Toyotas than I have been alive... I usually suggest that others find someone local like this.

[espguitarist33]

my filter sits next to the battery above the fuel filter. no rain there!

[ToyotaTechGeek]

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

Heh... usually I am one of those people who just won't stop....

I consider myself a "right fighter"
As do I
.... to give you an idea... I took a day off and went to court over a $10 parking ticket several years back.... If I get a speeding ticket and I was in the wrong... I pay it... if the officer made a mistake, then I fight it.

This is getting really off topic.... but

I've learned on these cars through the years.... and being a member on MR2OC never really helped much... In the past when I found myself at a point where I didn't know what to do, I would ask for help on there and those that actually know the answers wouldn't respond.... this turned into delays and higher costs
<applause>. I come on to these forums now with much more experience -- I include what I have or haven't done -- try not to comment when I don't have experience on something specifically unless I think I can speculate based on facts elsewhere and experience. I don't want to be one of those members on OC (like ITA_MR2... Bill Strong, etc) who usually don't add much to the conversation (with the rare exception) and usually only post when it has to do with their projects. I've also learned that when I have a question I either just spend the time to figure it out myself in the garage
<bravo!!! not many do this anymore. forums are merely a place to come for information on a silver platter!!!>or I will ask the one person who might know... call him a friend or a mentor.... but he's more than twice my age and has more years of experience with Toyotas than I have been alive... I usually suggest that others find someone local like this.

[efx]

Great, any pictures of how you installed it ESP???

Toyo, I understand where you're coming from. I would and have recently fought a ticket as I have it posted on here and the court did take that off. I was on the right and the officer was not. So I do know what you mean. If I can help someone with something I do know a bit about I would post, if not I may just try to lighten things up a bit. That doesn't always happen, but sometimes it does. I think most people here have learn much on their own and from reading others experience, including me. I'm still learning.

As for the other forum, yeah I guess you'll find people that will tell you or not. I met a few members from the other board and well, I learn about getting parts and little things like that so that was good. I also learned that everyone has their own way of doing things. I don't like how they micro manage the site because it makes it kind of annoying. But there is a lot of non-sense there too which is way off topic at times so I guess you need a bit of that. That's also the place I learned about the meets. I had no clue of what those were, but I hardly go to them anyway and at least I now have an idea of who else has a two around my area which is cool too.

I just stick to what I know and feel comfortable doing. I don't expect to get an answer on everything, but some people will chime in to help and others won't. Well it is what it is I guess. My point being that it's not worth getting into it with someone who disagrees at everything you say, maybe they're wrong or maybe they're right. I rather just move on if nothing is getting done. Just my opinion but yeah this is way off now. So I'll leave it at that since this is about the cone filter setup. I still need to see more pictures though. I've only seen one or two but very helpful so far. WE KEEP IT FOCUSED ON THIS FORUM! I'll post my pictures if I ever get mine done. Oh yeah, and there's a girl in here that actually works on cars too. She probably knows more about cars than I do I'm sure.

Originally Posted by espguitarist33

my filter sits next to the battery above the fuel filter. no rain there!

[espguitarist33]

well i cannot give you pics because I have my head off waiting to be able to afford a gasket overhaul kit. but I have a silvertop, and the intake passage is an angled piece, so from the intake box, it goes at an angle to the airflow sensor to the spectre short intake that is pushed against the batter, not a great setup but it works for me, for now

[LokiRx7]

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

I'm not saying it will aid combustion.... never did I say that.

However... you state that it was so bad you had to pull your plugs (your words)... which would imply your starter was no longer spinning (if it was still spinning, then you're showing your ignorance in saying that you had to pull your plugs to spray the water out)... implying that you had so much water in your combustion chamber that you were hydrolocked and requiring you to pull your plugs.

No I DID NOT EVER STATE MY STARTER WASNT SPINNING YOU IDIOT. I simply pulled the plugs to blow out any contaminated fuel that was in the combustion chamber. The car wasnt starting, at the time, I had fuel, air, and spark. So to eliminate any other possibilities I popped the plugs out and cranked the engine over. This is the second time you have put words in my mouth. I NEVER SAID I WAS HYDROLOCKED!!!! YOU IDIOT, IF YOU READ MY INITIAL POST I SAID WE DONT COVER OUR FILTERS FOR FEAR OF HYDROLOCKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry if I actually read what you said and know what I am talking about.



Friends 89 came with one of those stupid covers... he has a cotton k&n style filter like most, and it gets rained on through the vent. It rains enough here that his car is gutted due to the interior being destroyed. However, he has no problems starting it (well, before the rod knock) when the filter is/was wet... I know this for fact because he would have called me. Further, I know it was outside because for over a year his st165 was in the garage being worked on.

Thats wonderful, again, I was telling you my personal experience, and why I like to cover my filter.

So maybe you should be asking why your car wouldn't start when the filter was wet. Maybe it's time for a compression test? Maybe time for a tune up or plugs that aren't so fouled a mist of water will keep them from sparking?

Well, the car runs perfectly, I happened to have a no start scenario that happened WHILE THE AIR FILTER WAS WET. Maybe I had a ghost that kept my car from starting until I pulled off the filter and cranked it over without the plugs out. To be honest I think I could even admit, that maybe it just needed to crank a few times to bring up the fuel pressure. This occured about two or three weeks before I replaced the fuel pump in it. Either way, I dont like the idea of a wet filter, and I am not going to change the fact I have a cover over mine.

Your information is pretty bad, to be quite honest.

Oil is pulled through the "filter" when your pcv splashes oil... you must have too much crankcase pressure in your 12A that is enough for oil to get through the PCV.

12a's with sidedraft carburators have to put a breather filter on the PCV tube thus eliminating it from possibly adding oil to the intake air. Not to mention that the PCV system on 12a's is plugged into a plate that sits under the carb from the factory eliminating the chance it could do anything to the carb. NOT TO MENTION I SPECIFICALLY TOLD YOU WHAT THE OIL WAS AND WHERE IT CAME FROM! IT WASNT CRANKCASE OIL!!

Further, at a starting cranking speed there isn't enough vacuum to pull the oil through, this probably occurred at high RPM. If you really think you can refute this, I would like you to include the actual math. Physics don't lie in that lighter particles will move through the path of least resistance. If the oil was getting pulled through, then the area that had been oil soaked was large enough or your air filter was too small to accomodate for the required amount of air for that given RPM.

DURR DURR DUUUUURRRR THE FILTER WAS TOTALLY SOAKED, READ!!!!!!! IT IS KEY IN ARGUING A POINT!!! If you dont know what you are talking about you look like an IDIOT!!! By the time my dumba$$ was done, the filter was as soaked as a SPONGE!!

And you building a wiring harness from "SCRATCH" makes you special how? I've done it several times, for mine and others.

I was simply pointing out the fact I am not some random noob that walked in and said, oh yeah I had a mad time hydrolocking my engine. No, I told you about something that occured to me, and why I cover my air filter, and then you tell me why it didnt happen and how you can prove it. Thats assinine, grow up, leave it be.


Personally owned 9 MK1 mr2's in a rainy state.... owned a plethora of other 4a and 7a powered cars... worked on probably 1/2 of the MR2's in town (and many out of town)ASE certified, worked parts for 3 years and a shop for one.... but you MUST be smart because you can get your cars to defy the laws of physics


ASE certified, you have to be smart I was ASE certified and I know quite a few techs that are MORONS, ASE means NOTHING except you took a test and passed, bravo! Unfortunately for you I worked at a Mazda dealership while certified, and if you want to play who has the bigger e-pen!s I have personally owned over thirty DIFFERENT makes and models, and worked on vehicles you most probably have never heard of. I am certified to work on Diesels and air brakes, and I was the on duty rotary tech. ASE certified MEANS NOTHING! These days it makes you a parts replacer! You dont rebuild engines, alternators, starters, carburators, injectors, calipers, you just replace entire components.

[LokiRx7]

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

Now that I'm at home..... and have a little extra time to collect thoughts....

fact of the matter is that if you want to use a heatshield as a water shield due to the engine lid vent... go ahead... but really you're just installing an unnecessary accessory.

And to use an AW11, an ae92 gts, and an ae86 GTS, all of which are over 20 years old with who knows what engne variances, all have different drivetrain setups, different driving styles, probably different engine blocks, probably slightly varied timing.... and then compare air filters to all of them which might affect performance on a 4age by 1% is a horrible comparison.... you might as well compare your air filter on one of these cars and on a civic...

Hey, they are all BIGPORT 4A-GE's the only difference is the AE-92 has a 7 rib block and 3cc larger injectors with a differnent impedence....

I WAS SIMPLY IMPYING IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE I DONT NOTICE IT!

I WASNT USING IT AS IF IT WERE SCIENTIFIC FACT!

MATTER OF FACT I NOTED THAT THE BUTT DYNO ISNT THE MOST ACCURATE!!!! READ!! READ!!!!!!!!!!!

[LokiRx7]

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

I'll admit... that's funny... I've just been looking at this when on break at work.... and that was out of context

You did realize muffinman was making fun of the fact you DIDNT READ!!

if you rebuilt your carb because of oil coming off of your air filter, then wow..... you do realize that the fuel will burn the oil off.... and "fuel passages in the carb".... now I know you're lying or don't know what you're talking about..... the only thing in the carb that the air/oil mixture could have contaminated anything fuel related would be the jets... which typically face downwards and the air moving across it can't actually "access" it.... all of the fuel systems should have positive pressure in them..... again, defying physics.

:FACEPALM: I dont think you understand anything I have said, its a sidedraft carb, with an air filter SOPPING WET WITH OIL! And we are NOT talking about high air velocity here.... I dont know what I am talking about, I just rebuilt that carb because I felt like it! And it had that pretty red K&N air filter oil all over my jets and air bleeds...

EDIT::
Positive pressure in a carb'd fuel system? Do you understand how a carb works? What a float bowl is? And what needle valves do? Or an accelerator pump? and the fact that max pressure is somewhere between 3-7 p.s.i. and that has NOTHING to do with the pressure of fuel coming out of the jets?

if my smallport/megasquirted mr2 wasn't piled under so much junk I would tape dunking the filter in water and starting the car.... but I can barely muster the motivation to do work to a car that needs it let alone prove that a wet filter will allow air to pass through, allowing the car to start.

At this point I dont even give a crap about that anymore.... I just wish you would read something, and then... Read it again, and just for sh!ts and giggles read it one last time....

[LokiRx7]

I know your going to get on here and 'tear my arguements up' but I do have a life so I cant respond to you everyday. At this point, Im willing to say that maybe I have a pointless engine bay 'fashion accessory' God knows my oil catch can idea was...

I for one, dont like the idea of having a wet air filter, besides the fact I use cheapies on this car anyway. The metal mesh that runs over the actual filter rusts when it gets wet, and they arent exactly 'reuseable'

I do take care of the car though, I treat my MR2 like my baby, I almost like driving it more than the 7.

I apoligize for insulting you toyotaspeed, but I dont take kindly to being called a liar. This forum is for information, as you said, and I did have experience on the subject of this thread. So I contributed, you can take it or leave it, but that experience is what led me to buy a filter cover. I can accept the fact that it may not have even been the water that caused a no start situation, but I am unwilling to totally rule it out. At least not until it were to be tested in some way.

However my Rx-7 did experience a no start situation that was caused by an excessive amount of oil entering the combustion chamber, by the time I cleared it out of the engine the carb was so gunked up I opted to rebuild it because there was filter oil EVERYWHERE inside the throat of the carb. Ive made mistakes, who hasnt? I dont think you can be considered a real mechanic until youve made mistakes, lol!

[toyotaspeed90]

Originally Posted by LokiRx7

Hey, they are all BIGPORT 4A-GE's the only difference is the AE-92 has a 7 rib block and 3cc larger injectors with a differnent impedence....

I WAS SIMPLY IMPYING IF THERE IS A DIFFERENCE I DONT NOTICE IT!

I WASNT USING IT AS IF IT WERE SCIENTIFIC FACT!

MATTER OF FACT I NOTED THAT THE BUTT DYNO ISNT THE MOST ACCURATE!!!! READ!! READ!!!!!!!!!!!

this shows your true competence.

there's more of a difference than just "7 rib block and 3cc larger injectors" between bigports. If you really think that's the only difference, you should do some more homework or go into the garage some more. You are 100% wrong here.

Further, they all weigh different amounts and all have different drivetrain setups in their respective cars. ALL will drive and accelerate differently, and again, commenting on something that has little to no effect on performance as a comparison between the 3 is pretty idiotic.

It's ironic how you continue to say "read" and I clearly stated I was on break and wasn't paying all that close attention, which is why I had laughed at my mistake. At least I am capable of seeing when something I said was wrong.

I also made an attempt to end this conversation, and yet you continue to drive it over a cliff.

[LokiRx7]

Originally Posted by toyotaspeed90

this shows your true competence.

there's more of a difference than just "7 rib block and 3cc larger injectors" between bigports. If you really think that's the only difference, you should do some more homework or go into the garage some more. You are 100% wrong here.

Further, they all weigh different amounts and all have different drivetrain setups in their respective cars. ALL will drive and accelerate differently, and again, commenting on something that has little to no effect on performance as a comparison between the 3 is pretty idiotic.

It's ironic how you continue to say "read" and I clearly stated I was on break and wasn't paying all that close attention, which is why I had laughed at my mistake. At least I am capable of seeing when something I said was wrong.

I also made an attempt to end this conversation, and yet you continue to drive it over a cliff.

Are you a child? Or do you just like to argue for the sake of arguing? You are nothing but an ass-hole, I hope you realize that. I have no other way of comparing cars, I have two 86 MR2's which I clearly stated that I compared them. And a matter of fact I have pointed it out now SEVERAL times I never use my comparison as 'scientific' fact. The cars all have the same engine, the output between the bigports DOESNT VARY MUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If I sat here and explained in detail every tiny little difference between the two I would be here all day!! You are a troll who has nothing better to do than point out every microscopic flaw in my argument, most of which I leave open because I figured maybe you would assume, yeah why would someone want to type out everything in detail, I pointed out the biggest differences that came to mind. Your right, they arent even the same displacement, comparing a 1.6 to a 1.6 is just apples to oranges. My AE-92 doesnt accelerate the same way as my 8-6 or MR2 Which is why on the interstate it nearly runs dead even with my MR2, your right terrible comparison.....

I dont own a damn engine or chassis dyno you ass, Im not taking any of my cars to one because they arent modified enough to merit the trip, ding dong. I retract my apology, you are an idiot, you are the one who thinks I threw that comment out there as if it were the gospel.

So to reiterate what I originally said for your INCREDIBLY LOW intelligence level.

My MR2 is a DD, I DONT GIVE A DAMN IF MY TINY AIR FILTER IS RESTRICTING 3 HORSEPOWER! That was why I brought up the comparison, someone said my air filter was tiny. IT DOESNT FEEL NOTICEABLY SLOWER THAN ANY OF MY OTHER 4A-GE POWERED VEHICLES. A matter of fact its kinda odd that the magazine articles from Road and track give similiar 1/4 mile times for the 8-6 and MR2 N/A. But in your alternate universe apparently MR and FR accelerate SO differently that they cant be compared at all.

Since it is a DD I DONT GIVE A DAMN IF I CANT NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE THROUGH THE SEAT OF MY PANTS. If that isnt clear enough for you BANG YOUR HEAD ON A WALL, it might make more sense.

That original post wasnt even directed at you, so I dont know why you brought it up other than to e-thug, which so far you have proved to be a failure at that too. Oh yeah, its because you dont read things slowly enough and take EVERYTHING OUT OF CONTEXT!

EDIT ::

You never made an attempt to end the conversation, you made your 'point' and then went on slandering other things I had said in posts to other people, grow up!

[efx]

Great, thanks. Maybe when you do get it back together, If not that's cool. It's no big deal. I'll try to picture it. I just like to get ideas of anything like this I guess. Never having done anything like this, it helps having pictures and that's the only reason I ask.

Originally Posted by espguitarist33

well i cannot give you pics because I have my head off waiting to be able to afford a gasket overhaul kit. but I have a silvertop, and the intake passage is an angled piece, so from the intake box, it goes at an angle to the airflow sensor to the spectre short intake that is pushed against the batter, not a great setup but it works for me, for now

[espguitarist33]

well number 1 ...guys forreal...dont flame eachother like that, your all partially correct and all partially wrong. essentially you area all both wrong and right at the same itme until we can actually see your theorys played out (quantum physics concept ) . Lets make this official since you guys are super serious about this! start a thread like wet filter testing or something and run some tests and take video/pics and show how you approached the data. i'm intrested to see the definitive answer to this myself

""ideas""
do some wet starts, half submerged starts, 3/4 submerged starts....run it half in adn take off the intake plenum and show that water is or isnt in the intake path and on the plates....just dont submerge it, or continually suck up water, just the minimum to come up with an answer




okay number 2

efx- Look at a picture of a silvertop engine, you can see the angle coming off the surge box. its the same place as your intake is, it then is turned towards the front of the car, and a cone filter is tucked between (my distributer) the valvecovers and the battery. it leaves a huge hole over where eveyrone else puts their filter, kinda looks funny i guess