5S-GE

Medusa · 10-14-2009, 02:33 PM

I've done a lot of searching and found some useful information, but I still have some unanswered questions.

I'm thinking of swapping the head from a 3S-GE/GTE onto my 5S-FE.

1) Can I put the head from a BEAMS engine onto my 5S block? What would be required to make this work? I kinda like the idea of having the vvt-i, but also keeping the 2.2L displacement. More precisely though, is it easier/cheaper to do this as opposed to swapping the whole engine?

2) I know the head from a 3S-GTE will fit, but will it require drilling new coolant passages? My MR2 is a 1993. Also, what changes would be required to make the GTE heads fit? I'm planning on staying non-turbo for a while.

It's pretty much down to the BEAMS/GTE head swap, or just dropping in a 5VZ-FE. Is the V6 swap a cheaper option, as far as cost for power ratio?

Denz · 10-17-2009, 04:10 AM

It really depends what your looking for.
Here in New Zealand where 3VZ are cheap as chips itd be much cheaper to do the V6 option.
You should have a look around for engine prices in your area.
But all of these swaps would require a bit of time off the road.

Medusa · 10-17-2009, 02:47 PM

Yeah, I'm set to have the car on stands for a month or so. I can deal with that, but I'm just trying to find out how feasible it is to swap GE heads and keep it N/A.

I can get a 5VZ-FE for probably $1000, ready to drop in my car.

fvillota · 10-17-2009, 03:19 PM

im looking into this too..

fvillota · 10-17-2009, 03:19 PM

but i dont think the head completely matches up...
how much would drilling new coolant lines to match up cost?

Medusa · 10-17-2009, 03:28 PM

If you're careful and have a drill press, you can do it yourself. You just have to know how to drill aluminum.

fvillota · 10-17-2009, 03:44 PM

lol i do but i dont dare lol.

Medusa · 10-17-2009, 11:24 PM

I was reading up about that, it actually looks really easy. You just have to be careful and measure accurately.

Come on people, isn't there anybody that's even attempted this before? I need info!

Basement Digital · 10-17-2009, 11:58 PM

In the Honda world you can bolt a B16 head to a CRV B20 block, bolt an Integra Type R intake manifold up, swap Civic SiR cams in and install name-that-part from name-your-other-vehicle with a B series engine.

The Toyota world is soooo much different. Unbelievably, even 20R's are quite different from 22R's. (Same series engine - different displacement)

Although I'm speaking out of ignorance in this case; I am 90% certain that swapping a 3SGTE into your NA would be easier than putting a Beams head on a 5SFE block.

Heck - it's easier (for me at least) to pull an MR2 engine than to replace the head of an MR2 engine (while it's still in the engine bay).

Just get that 3SGTE and call it a day! It's hard to argue with a bolt-on 90hp upgrade.

fvillota · 10-18-2009, 12:11 AM

cause if i were to get a 3sfte.. i dont really need anything but the ecu right?
do i need a new harness or just repin

mrturrari · 10-18-2009, 01:14 PM

I wish people would stop telling others that the 3s head bolts on to a 5sfe. I really do!

The 3s head bolts to the block when you modify the coolant passages or get a certain year of block BUT

It does NOT bolt to the intake manifold
It does NOT bolt to the distributor
It does NOT line up with the pistons

You end up with lower compression engine and a bottom end, that if you actually used the extra flow the 3sge head and cams gives you, would risk stretching the rod bolts and spinning a bearing.

There is one guy I have heard about who actually managed to make a hybrid distributor and was able to talk to the 5s ECU but think about what you are stuck with with this combo. The red line is still 6300rpms and you loose torque across the rev range because of the lowered compression. Also if you started with a rev1 5s then you would have to use the on/off switch that is the 5s TPS.

So just remember that all the people who have successfully done this and have been able to use the benefits this gives you, they have all started out with a full, working 3s and added the 5s block and crank to it with a bunch of custom work.

Maruki-kun · 10-18-2009, 01:25 PM

high compression pistons matched with the first gen 3SGE head on a 5SFE block (no machining required) with upgraded cams would be sexy, near 160-170HP and a constant torque band.

Medusa · 10-18-2009, 03:08 PM

@Basement Digital - I've been reading your two threads on the 5S-FE to 3SGTE swap, and it has really really helped me out a lot with my decision. I have to thank you for such an amazing write-up. Because of that thread, it's down to a 3/5VZ-FE, or 3S-GTE swap.

I'm pretty good with wiring, and a some custom fabrication doesn't scare me. And seeing how cheaply and easily I can do a 3S-GTE swap, it's becoming a more valid option.

The (relatively) huge torque of the V6 motors is still a big draw for me though, so I've still got to decide between these two.

fvillota · 10-19-2009, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrturrari

I wish people would stop telling others that the 3s head bolts on to a 5sfe. I really do!

The 3s head bolts to the block when you modify the coolant passages or get a certain year of block BUT

It does NOT bolt to the intake manifold
It does NOT bolt to the distributor
It does NOT line up with the pistons

You end up with lower compression engine and a bottom end, that if you actually used the extra flow the 3sge head and cams gives you, would risk stretching the rod bolts and spinning a bearing.

There is one guy I have heard about who actually managed to make a hybrid distributor and was able to talk to the 5s ECU but think about what you are stuck with with this combo. The red line is still 6300rpms and you loose torque across the rev range because of the lowered compression. Also if you started with a rev1 5s then you would have to use the on/off switch that is the 5s TPS.

So just remember that all the people who have successfully done this and have been able to use the benefits this gives you, they have all started out with a full, working 3s and added the 5s block and crank to it with a bunch of custom work.

well you would use the intake and the dizzy from the other one no?
isnt low compression good for boost?
boost the **** out of it?! haha

Medusa · 10-20-2009, 12:23 PM

^ Except I said I'd prefer to keep it N/A.

And low compression isn't good for boost, you just can't run high compression without ridiculous detonation. The Ford Ecotec engine on the new Taurus SHO is 10:1 compression, but it has direct injection which keeps the cylinder temperatures down a lot lower than port injection like we have.

mr220v · 10-20-2009, 12:33 PM

One thing that might help with a beams head on a 5s block is the beams does not use a domed piston. This would likely keep the compression at a reasonable level. It would be nice to have the various combustion chamber volumes....but looking at the beams, the gen3 and the 5s pistons side by, it appears that the 5s and beams might be similar.

I'm considering a beams head on a 98 5s bottom end for my next project....just depends on if I can get by with the 1piece pan.

djskorch · 10-20-2009, 01:14 PM

if your looking for cheap, reliable, and a nice upgrade in power, why not go with a 3rd gen 3sge (the gen before the beams) its good for around 175hp and 160ish tq. great upgrade over the 5s, reliable and gets better mpg than the 5s, nearly as fast as a stock turbo, and a complete swap set will run you under 1000 if you keep your eyes out. and the best part is that it is a weekend swap. everything is exactly the same as the 5s with the exception of the body plug pin and a couple other wires so if you have the tools and some simple knowhow and you dont have to order any parts, youll be done in a couple days. hope this helps. heck, your in reno, if you decide to go this route, i could come and help you with it for a small fee. i love drivin and workin on 2's so....

mr220v · 10-20-2009, 01:19 PM

^An awesome option if you're on a budget. I know of one near my house from a celica for $850. I had a gen2 in my mk2 before the beams. Big improvement over the 5s. There was a guy on the other board selling one cheap as well.

fvillota · 10-21-2009, 01:10 PM

so a 3rd gen 3sge
bolts right up.. its like doing a 3sgte swap with no turbo?
and then all i gotta worry about is the wiring which is like what? 12 wires?

djskorch · 10-21-2009, 01:15 PM

well going into a 94 its nearly a direct bolt up, i only had to change a 22pin plug and about 8 wires however going into a 91-93 is a little more work (just more wireing) mr220v should be able to make you a custom harness out of your 5s and your 3s harness so everything would be plug and play. it is really a great swap for the price and ease of it.

10-14-2009, 02:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
Medusa HAY GUISE! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 752 Thanks: 9 Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	5S-GE I've done a lot of searching and found some useful information, but I still have some unanswered questions. I'm thinking of swapping the head from a 3S-GE/GTE onto my 5S-FE. 1) Can I put the head from a BEAMS engine onto my 5S block? What would be required to make this work? I kinda like the idea of having the vvt-i, but also keeping the 2.2L displacement. More precisely though, is it easier/cheaper to do this as opposed to swapping the whole engine? 2) I know the head from a 3S-GTE will fit, but will it require drilling new coolant passages? My MR2 is a 1993. Also, what changes would be required to make the GTE heads fit? I'm planning on staying non-turbo for a while. It's pretty much down to the BEAMS/GTE head swap, or just dropping in a 5VZ-FE. Is the V6 swap a cheaper option, as far as cost for power ratio?

10-17-2009, 11:58 PM	#9 (permalink)
Basement Digital JDMportal.com Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 357 Thanks: 50 Thanked 32 Times in 12 Posts Blog Entries: 1 iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	In the Honda world you can bolt a B16 head to a CRV B20 block, bolt an Integra Type R intake manifold up, swap Civic SiR cams in and install name-that-part from name-your-other-vehicle with a B series engine. The Toyota world is soooo much different. Unbelievably, even 20R's are quite different from 22R's. (Same series engine - different displacement) Although I'm speaking out of ignorance in this case; I am 90% certain that swapping a 3SGTE into your NA would be easier than putting a Beams head on a 5SFE block. Heck - it's easier (for me at least) to pull an MR2 engine than to replace the head of an MR2 engine (while it's still in the engine bay). Just get that 3SGTE and call it a day! It's hard to argue with a bolt-on 90hp upgrade. Last edited by Basement Digital; 11-16-2009 at 03:50 PM..

10-20-2009, 01:14 PM	#17 (permalink)
djskorch djskorch Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 634 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 23 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	if your looking for cheap, reliable, and a nice upgrade in power, why not go with a 3rd gen 3sge (the gen before the beams) its good for around 175hp and 160ish tq. great upgrade over the 5s, reliable and gets better mpg than the 5s, nearly as fast as a stock turbo, and a complete swap set will run you under 1000 if you keep your eyes out. and the best part is that it is a weekend swap. everything is exactly the same as the 5s with the exception of the body plug pin and a couple other wires so if you have the tools and some simple knowhow and you dont have to order any parts, youll be done in a couple days. hope this helps. heck, your in reno, if you decide to go this route, i could come and help you with it for a small fee. i love drivin and workin on 2's so.... Last edited by djskorch; 10-20-2009 at 01:15 PM.. Reason: spelling

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10-17-2009, 04:10 AM	#2 (permalink)
Denz Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Hamilton, New Zealand Posts: 487 Thanks: 2 Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	It really depends what your looking for. Here in New Zealand where 3VZ are cheap as chips itd be much cheaper to do the V6 option. You should have a look around for engine prices in your area. But all of these swaps would require a bit of time off the road.

10-17-2009, 02:47 PM	#3 (permalink)
Medusa HAY GUISE! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 752 Thanks: 9 Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Yeah, I'm set to have the car on stands for a month or so. I can deal with that, but I'm just trying to find out how feasible it is to swap GE heads and keep it N/A. I can get a 5VZ-FE for probably $1000, ready to drop in my car.

10-17-2009, 03:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
fvillota Did you just press that? Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 2,539 Thanks: 73 Thanked 52 Times in 52 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	im looking into this too..

10-17-2009, 03:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
fvillota Did you just press that? Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 2,539 Thanks: 73 Thanked 52 Times in 52 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	but i dont think the head completely matches up... how much would drilling new coolant lines to match up cost?

10-17-2009, 03:28 PM	#6 (permalink)
Medusa HAY GUISE! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 752 Thanks: 9 Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	If you're careful and have a drill press, you can do it yourself. You just have to know how to drill aluminum.

10-17-2009, 03:44 PM	#7 (permalink)
fvillota Did you just press that? Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 2,539 Thanks: 73 Thanked 52 Times in 52 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	lol i do but i dont dare lol.

10-17-2009, 11:24 PM	#8 (permalink)
Medusa HAY GUISE! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 752 Thanks: 9 Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I was reading up about that, it actually looks really easy. You just have to be careful and measure accurately. Come on people, isn't there anybody that's even attempted this before? I need info!

10-18-2009, 12:11 AM	#10 (permalink)
fvillota Did you just press that? Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 2,539 Thanks: 73 Thanked 52 Times in 52 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	cause if i were to get a 3sfte.. i dont really need anything but the ecu right? do i need a new harness or just repin

10-18-2009, 01:14 PM	#11 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Salt Lake City, Utah Posts: 655 Thanks: 2 Thanked 170 Times in 113 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I wish people would stop telling others that the 3s head bolts on to a 5sfe. I really do! The 3s head bolts to the block when you modify the coolant passages or get a certain year of block BUT It does NOT bolt to the intake manifold It does NOT bolt to the distributor It does NOT line up with the pistons You end up with lower compression engine and a bottom end, that if you actually used the extra flow the 3sge head and cams gives you, would risk stretching the rod bolts and spinning a bearing. There is one guy I have heard about who actually managed to make a hybrid distributor and was able to talk to the 5s ECU but think about what you are stuck with with this combo. The red line is still 6300rpms and you loose torque across the rev range because of the lowered compression. Also if you started with a rev1 5s then you would have to use the on/off switch that is the 5s TPS. So just remember that all the people who have successfully done this and have been able to use the benefits this gives you, they have all started out with a full, working 3s and added the 5s block and crank to it with a bunch of custom work.

10-18-2009, 01:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
Maruki-kun Cage Fighter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Millington, MD Posts: 2,487 Thanks: 9 Thanked 74 Times in 67 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	high compression pistons matched with the first gen 3SGE head on a 5SFE block (no machining required) with upgraded cams would be sexy, near 160-170HP and a constant torque band.

10-18-2009, 03:08 PM	#13 (permalink)
Medusa HAY GUISE! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 752 Thanks: 9 Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	@Basement Digital - I've been reading your two threads on the 5S-FE to 3SGTE swap, and it has really really helped me out a lot with my decision. I have to thank you for such an amazing write-up. Because of that thread, it's down to a 3/5VZ-FE, or 3S-GTE swap. I'm pretty good with wiring, and a some custom fabrication doesn't scare me. And seeing how cheaply and easily I can do a 3S-GTE swap, it's becoming a more valid option. The (relatively) huge torque of the V6 motors is still a big draw for me though, so I've still got to decide between these two.

10-20-2009, 12:23 PM	#15 (permalink)
Medusa HAY GUISE! Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 752 Thanks: 9 Thanked 18 Times in 17 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	^ Except I said I'd prefer to keep it N/A. And low compression isn't good for boost, you just can't run high compression without ridiculous detonation. The Ford Ecotec engine on the new Taurus SHO is 10:1 compression, but it has direct injection which keeps the cylinder temperatures down a lot lower than port injection like we have.

10-20-2009, 12:33 PM	#16 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	One thing that might help with a beams head on a 5s block is the beams does not use a domed piston. This would likely keep the compression at a reasonable level. It would be nice to have the various combustion chamber volumes....but looking at the beams, the gen3 and the 5s pistons side by, it appears that the 5s and beams might be similar. I'm considering a beams head on a 98 5s bottom end for my next project....just depends on if I can get by with the 1piece pan.

10-20-2009, 01:19 PM	#18 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 2,529 Thanks: 13 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	^An awesome option if you're on a budget. I know of one near my house from a celica for $850. I had a gen2 in my mk2 before the beams. Big improvement over the 5s. There was a guy on the other board selling one cheap as well.

10-21-2009, 01:10 PM	#19 (permalink)
fvillota Did you just press that? Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 2,539 Thanks: 73 Thanked 52 Times in 52 Posts iTrader Rating: (11/100% )	so a 3rd gen 3sge bolts right up.. its like doing a 3sgte swap with no turbo? and then all i gotta worry about is the wiring which is like what? 12 wires?

10-21-2009, 01:15 PM	#20 (permalink)
djskorch djskorch Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Idaho Posts: 634 Thanks: 5 Thanked 25 Times in 23 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	well going into a 94 its nearly a direct bolt up, i only had to change a 22pin plug and about 8 wires however going into a 91-93 is a little more work (just more wireing) mr220v should be able to make you a custom harness out of your 5s and your 3s harness so everything would be plug and play. it is really a great swap for the price and ease of it.