3VZFE vs 5VZFE... Debate!!! - Page 3

Toysrme · 08-14-2007, 01:15 PM

board ate my post last night. :\ sigh lol

neways. McE ran his turbo over a year before parking it at well over 400bhp no ems (i put him around 475 personally based on that turbo & what he was pushing) before that over 400bhp worth of the juice for two years, no ems.
there's a half dozen 3vz camry's on toyotanation that run the bottle no ems (anywhere between 75 and a 200 wet shots, one 125 dry shot no ems) three on there in the last year running 125 - ya about 350 at the end of the day, but close enough...

the obd-I of teh 3vz-fe would easily let someone get away with sub $300 worth of fuel mods to make 450bhp'ish. no aftermarket management required. it wouldn't run as well a car with another grand dropped into EMS solutions. the point is that it could be made to run perfectly acceptably & safely until around there.
HP fuel pump $100
12:1 fmu $100
fuel filter $15
new plugs $12
the differance is that the obd-II cars will run rich enough to foul the plugs & go lean under boost over time, where the older engine will simply run rich under boost until your fuel pump chokes. on a 12:1 FMU you won't see a wideband gauge do anything but bottom out at a 10:1 A/F ratio until around 350bhp even in the high par tof the middle rpm ranges.
we have yet to discuss starting off with a mild injector swap that the ECU will tune itself out during closed loop once warm yet!
tehehehehehe nor have we said you *probably* wouldn't need to touch the distributor for a measily old 350bhp since they're so retarded from the factory. we all just do it for peace of mind really...
or water/alcohol injection lol

nor have we discussed replacing the stock fpr completely with a $200 fmu that has adjustable base pressure, and adjustable rise VS manifold pressure. now you're opening the door to running relatively large injectors acceptably in closed loop without EMS.
<- still not discussed mild afm tuning to help those injectors life on the street either.

3vz-fe motto = get there cheaper, with more faster; if you're not opposed to applying FI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dance_Business

Who has 400 hp and no EMS?

Weasy2k · 08-14-2007, 08:32 PM

you can run wet kits on OBD-II vehicles too...with no problems...

mr2greasemonkey · 08-14-2007, 09:41 PM

Well, just got back from PacNW2007, this is a lil off topic but I'm gonna have to say, hands down, SC 5vz rocks. Had couple of trans. issues, gonna need to talk to the rebuilder, couldnt get into second and the "welded" diff didnt stay welded. But for the most part, the car drove exceptionally well. I asked the best drivers there to take it out on the course and see what they thought. As far as puttin down the power, the car basically drove around the whole course in 3rd even through the tight stuff without any problems. Some of the comments: Zack- I was surprised how it was able to pull quickly from such a low rpm coming outta the corners. Dan- It turns in very well, and the power is right there when you want it. Caleb-3rd gear the whole way around the track and never lacked for power. Most people liked the power band and for only using 3rd gear, how smooth and broad the torque was. Hopefully someone will post up videos soon.

Weasy2k · 08-14-2007, 09:42 PM

to be expected :P Torque is over 200 from 1500rpm onwards...no need to shift

mr2greasemonkey · 08-14-2007, 10:12 PM

yeah, hehe, I'm tryin to imagine what it would've been like to have 2nd gear.

Toysrme · 08-14-2007, 11:02 PM

hehehe depends on the quality of the tires

it would either feel alot quicker, or alot slower lmao!

mr2greasemonkey · 08-15-2007, 12:38 AM

2007 PacNW Annual MR2 Meet (8/10-8/12)

take a looksy

Dance_Business · 08-19-2007, 07:48 PM

I have found that third works well for me in autox. I was only 3 seconds off FTD today, with aweful tires and suspension. Plenty of torque!

JMcDonald · 09-13-2007, 10:44 AM

Anyone have dynos of any high-revving V6s? Id like to see them, because it will take some convincing me before I believe a 5vz will flow like a 1mz at 9k+ RPM. Im looking for an engine to spin to at least 9k, and I want the slope of the power curve to still be positive at redline.

Weasy2k · 09-13-2007, 04:54 PM

Ide like to see the mz's do that too!

again people...JUST because this engine is in a truck does not mean it wont do what the other 6's are speculated to BETTER then the 5vz....they all have similar head design and can be ported to match each other....

Im doing some tests here that will put the mz and vz side by side n/a with the SAME intake manifold and similar duration cams....

yes SAME intake manifold....dual TB or single...i will have all that but i am so busy doing other crap here that i cannot work on my own stuff at the moment.

JMcDonald · 09-13-2007, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasy2k

Ide like to see the mz's do that too!

Id actually want to see any of V6s do that. I keep hearing about all these V6s out at Race Wars on something spinning over 8k with huge turbos, but I havent seen any graphs over 300rwhp except Brad's, and that curve was exactly opposite what I am looking for, heh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasy2k

again people...JUST because this engine is in a truck does not mean it wont do what the other 6's are speculated to BETTER then the 5vz....they all have similar head design and can be ported to match each other....

It doesnt bother me at all that it is out of a truck. I am going strictly by the pics Ive seen, and the descriptions Ive been given about the ports on the 5vz heads vs the others. But I trust your opinion that they can be ported to match eachother, since you've seen them all up close.

Out of curiosity, about how many mm of material would you say can be ground out of the ports of the 5vz to straiten them out?

Weasy2k · 09-13-2007, 05:53 PM

^ i will be cutting a 5vz head with a bandsaw here soon enough so you can see what can be done

VeilsideMR2 · 09-13-2007, 05:54 PM

this thread is awesome... i really want to look up into all the swaps possible and their pros/cons...

JMcDonald · 09-13-2007, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasy2k

^ i will be cutting a 5vz head with a bandsaw here soon enough so you can see what can be done

Wow! Nice!!! That will be very neat to see!

I love cutting big things with big bandsaws lol. The biggest thing Ive done so far has been the stock Turbo exhaust, heh.

Weasy2k · 09-13-2007, 06:30 PM

hehe yea its going to be awesome...i buy sets of heads from all over the place for the cams and most of the time the heads are messed.

Gimpster · 09-14-2007, 10:18 AM

Hehe, I have a bunch of Honda heads I've done that to with my bandsaw. I just lay the cut head on the flatbed scanner and posted the pics for others to use. I make one cut alone the center line of the exhaust/intake port and then a cut center with the valve seat as well. At least that's what most people always wanted to see. Really is a big help.

Just have plenty of bee's wax next to you to keep that blade traveling smoooooove.

You should see the bandsaw I have, it's like... 100% homebrew. Not OSHA approved.

Weasy2k · 09-14-2007, 01:37 PM

I have yet to get one or else it would be done already

Something bigger is taking up my budget :P

4v6 · 09-15-2007, 04:50 AM

Hmmm i was thinking about this debate last night.

As far as i know the 5vz has 0.4 litres extra displacement, a longer stroke which lowers max acceptable piston speeds ( why its in a truck perhaps?) and has heads that flow worse than a 3vzfe.

Its not that im knocking the 5vz at all ( id love one to play with!) im just thinking that the 3vzfe isnt showing the kinds of outputs some 5vz's have because the same efforts may not have been expended on it.
After all the 3vzfe has a very similar iron block and forged crank

08-14-2007, 08:32 PM	#42 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,886 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	you can run wet kits on OBD-II vehicles too...with no problems... __________________ -Johnny @ Sea2Sky Tuning - www.sea2skytuning.com http://www.mr2.com/forums/sea2sky-tu...-out-sale.html

View Poll Results: 3VZFE or 5VZFE
3VZFE	53	52.48%
5VZFE	48	47.52%
Voters: 101. You may not vote on this poll

08-14-2007, 09:41 PM	#43 (permalink)
mr2greasemonkey Mines Bigger Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,174 Thanks: 4 Thanked 39 Times in 26 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Well, just got back from PacNW2007, this is a lil off topic but I'm gonna have to say, hands down, SC 5vz rocks. Had couple of trans. issues, gonna need to talk to the rebuilder, couldnt get into second and the "welded" diff didnt stay welded. But for the most part, the car drove exceptionally well. I asked the best drivers there to take it out on the course and see what they thought. As far as puttin down the power, the car basically drove around the whole course in 3rd even through the tight stuff without any problems. Some of the comments: Zack- I was surprised how it was able to pull quickly from such a low rpm coming outta the corners. Dan- It turns in very well, and the power is right there when you want it. Caleb-3rd gear the whole way around the track and never lacked for power. Most people liked the power band and for only using 3rd gear, how smooth and broad the torque was. Hopefully someone will post up videos soon.

08-14-2007, 09:42 PM	#44 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,886 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	to be expected :P Torque is over 200 from 1500rpm onwards...no need to shift

08-14-2007, 10:12 PM	#45 (permalink)
mr2greasemonkey Mines Bigger Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,174 Thanks: 4 Thanked 39 Times in 26 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	yeah, hehe, I'm tryin to imagine what it would've been like to have 2nd gear.

08-14-2007, 11:02 PM	#46 (permalink)
Toysrme Cage Fighter Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 677 Thanks: 4 Thanked 19 Times in 16 Posts iTrader Rating: (-1/0% )	hehehe depends on the quality of the tires it would either feel alot quicker, or alot slower lmao!

08-15-2007, 12:38 AM	#47 (permalink)
mr2greasemonkey Mines Bigger Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 1,174 Thanks: 4 Thanked 39 Times in 26 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	2007 PacNW Annual MR2 Meet (8/10-8/12) take a looksy

08-19-2007, 07:48 PM	#48 (permalink)
Dance_Business Mad Dance Skills Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: 20 minutes to Graceland Posts: 909 Thanks: 63 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	I have found that third works well for me in autox. I was only 3 seconds off FTD today, with aweful tires and suspension. Plenty of torque!

09-13-2007, 10:44 AM	#49 (permalink)
JMcDonald Cage Fighter Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 456 Thanks: 13 Thanked 12 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Anyone have dynos of any high-revving V6s? Id like to see them, because it will take some convincing me before I believe a 5vz will flow like a 1mz at 9k+ RPM. Im looking for an engine to spin to at least 9k, and I want the slope of the power curve to still be positive at redline.

09-13-2007, 04:54 PM	#50 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,886 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	Ide like to see the mz's do that too! again people...JUST because this engine is in a truck does not mean it wont do what the other 6's are speculated to BETTER then the 5vz....they all have similar head design and can be ported to match each other.... Im doing some tests here that will put the mz and vz side by side n/a with the SAME intake manifold and similar duration cams.... yes SAME intake manifold....dual TB or single...i will have all that but i am so busy doing other crap here that i cannot work on my own stuff at the moment.

09-13-2007, 05:53 PM	#52 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,886 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	^ i will be cutting a 5vz head with a bandsaw here soon enough so you can see what can be done

09-13-2007, 05:54 PM	#53 (permalink)
VeilsideMR2 91' N/A BeAsT Join Date: May 2007 Location: Jerzy Posts: 197 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	this thread is awesome... i really want to look up into all the swaps possible and their pros/cons...

09-13-2007, 06:30 PM	#55 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,886 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	hehe yea its going to be awesome...i buy sets of heads from all over the place for the cams and most of the time the heads are messed.

09-14-2007, 10:18 AM	#56 (permalink)
Gimpster Cage Fighter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Des Moines, IA Posts: 672 Thanks: 5 Thanked 46 Times in 44 Posts Blog Entries: 2 iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Hehe, I have a bunch of Honda heads I've done that to with my bandsaw. I just lay the cut head on the flatbed scanner and posted the pics for others to use. I make one cut alone the center line of the exhaust/intake port and then a cut center with the valve seat as well. At least that's what most people always wanted to see. Really is a big help. Just have plenty of bee's wax next to you to keep that blade traveling smoooooove. You should see the bandsaw I have, it's like... 100% homebrew. Not OSHA approved.

09-14-2007, 01:37 PM	#57 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,886 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	I have yet to get one or else it would be done already Something bigger is taking up my budget :P