Anyone tried cutting stock springs?

abarks · 10-02-2009, 01:15 PM

I know what you're thinking: why do that when Eibach will sell you a much better solution for not-a-lot of money.

I am building a MK1 car for 24 Hours of LeMons, so I have to keep the expenditures down. I'm dropping in new struts, and it sure is tempting to lop off those springs. The only issue I see (aside from how much to lop) is the cone shape of the rear springs. The diameter of the coil is bigger at the top - like a cone.

Does anyone have any experience cutting these? Were you able to get them to seat well in the back? If so, how much did you cut?

o6spdracer · 10-02-2009, 02:08 PM

I would strongly suggest you do NOT cut the stock springs. You will blow out your new struts faster and the ride quality will suck! Save up and buy a set of TRD ones from Aaron at Lithia Toyota (email awillis@lithia.com). He is running a group buy on them and those springs will probably be discontinued soon (if not already). It will be cheaper in the long run to change out the springs now and than having to replace the blown struts from cutting the springs.

countyboy3188 · 10-02-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by o6spdracer

I would strongly suggest you do NOT cut the stock springs. You will blow out your new struts faster and the ride quality will suck! Save up and buy a set of TRD ones from Aaron at Lithia Toyota (email awillis@lithia.com). He is running a group buy on them and those springs will probably be discontinued soon (if not already). It will be cheaper in the long run to change out the springs now and than having to replace the blown struts from cutting the springs.

+1 on that. The ride quality will def suck and you probably won't get a performance gain out of it it might actually handle worse.

lsgheero · 10-02-2009, 02:54 PM

We have had threads on this before... guys he is doing a race that you are only allowed to spend x number of dollars on the car for in order to participate (aka within a very small budget).

Therefore he most likely cant/wouldnt buy new/aftermarket springs if he can get away with it. plus I think the cap for spending 24hol is like a grand lol.

To OP as for the springs I have never done it but search the forum a bit as I mentioned we have had users as this question oddly enough regarding the same race lol....

Raptor13x · 10-02-2009, 04:13 PM

Oh my god some of you FAIL at reading. He said he is entering the 24 hours of lemons... that means he has approximately $0.00 budget for aftermarket parts, per the rules. Aftermarket springs cost $200+ on average, which would DESTROY his budget for the important things.

Despite commonly held belief, you CAN cut your springs with good results. It just gets a bad name because 99% of people that do it do it wrong, and don't understand exactly what is happening when they cut them. When you cut your springs, you INCREASE the spring rate. If the shocks are left stock, this will mean they will be inadequate for the modified springs (hence the bouncing you see). However, most aftermarket springs also have a higher spring rate, so you really need better shocks either way, which I'm glad to see you're adding. The HUGE advantage in cutting your springs over using aftermarket is that, although you are increasing spring rate, you're leaving it in the stock ratio front-rear, which most aftermarket spring companies change for the worse.

The next area most people screw up is by not measuring and cutting the EXACT same amount off each spring. Cut no more than 1/2 coil before reassembling the car and testing it. The steps to do so are as follows: (reference = Chassis Engineering, by Herb Adams, paraphrased)

1) Carefully remove the coil springs. Note how the end coils of the springs are slightly bent so that it seats properly in the strut assembly.

2) Mark off exactly 1/2 coil on the spring.

3) Cut the spring using an acetylene torch or saw.

4) Heat the 1/2 coil below your cut so you can bend it to match the spring's original shape.

5) Quickly turn the spring upside down and bend the top coil by pushing down on the spring. Do NOT quench the spring with water, allow it to air-cool slowly.

6) Paint the spring to avoid rust and reinstall.

abarks · 10-03-2009, 08:05 AM

Thank you, Raptor13x, for your comments. You're right, I'm looking to spend no money.

I simply do no buy that cutting a spring is always bad. Cutting too much spring is always bad. The question is how much is too much.

If anyone has a link to the thread that you mentioned, please send it. I cannot find it.

If anyone has experience with cutting the stock spring, I'd like to know how much you cut and the results that you got.

Raptor13x · 10-03-2009, 10:37 AM

I was referencing a book, not a thread.

q-authority · 10-03-2009, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor13x

Despite commonly held belief, you CAN cut your springs with good results. It just gets a bad name because 99% of people that do it do it wrong, and don't understand exactly what is happening when they cut them. When you cut your springs, you INCREASE the spring rate. If the shocks are left stock, this will mean they will be inadequate for the modified springs (hence the bouncing you see). However, most aftermarket springs also have a higher spring rate, so you really need better shocks either way, which I'm glad to see you're adding. The HUGE advantage in cutting your springs over using aftermarket is that, although you are increasing spring rate, you're leaving it in the stock ratio front-rear, which most aftermarket spring companies change for the worse.

The next area most people screw up is by not measuring and cutting the EXACT same amount off each spring. Cut no more than 1/2 coil before reassembling the car and testing it. The steps to do so are as follows: (reference = Chassis Engineering, by Herb Adams, paraphrased)

1) Carefully remove the coil springs. Note how the end coils of the springs are slightly bent so that it seats properly in the strut assembly.

2) Mark off exactly 1/2 coil on the spring.

3) Cut the spring using an acetylene torch or saw.

4) Heat the 1/2 coil below your cut so you can bend it to match the spring's original shape.

5) Quickly turn the spring upside down and bend the top coil by pushing down on the spring. Do NOT quench the spring with water, allow it to air-cool slowly.

6) Paint the spring to avoid rust and reinstall.

I fully agree that cutting springs can be done right, but seldom are, and that is why it has the bad rap. I did some research on this earlier this year and found one or two very credible posts from people in the business who explained very well that it could be done, if done properly.
I don't have the specs in front of me regarding how to calculate the proper amount of coil to cut off, in order to meet your needs, but only a little is usually required. If I recall properly, I had caluclated that only about 1/4 of a coil needs to be removed from a MKI in order to achieve an approximate 1" drop, but there are calculations for this, and a simple web search should bring them up. The 1/2 coil statement above was also, I believe, just a general reference, and did not have the MR2 in mind. Additionally, cut from the end of the coil that is not progressively wound (unevenly spaced), otherwise you amy get some unusual, almost impossible to calculate, results. Also, if you cut from the proper end you should not need to rebend the remaining portion of the cut coil, as it does not change shape at that end on MKI's.
If I can find a spare set of decent oem SC springs, I am going to try it on mine at some point, especially since the rear SC springs are already 10-11% stiffer than the NA springs, and switching to after market springs only gives you a lowered advantage and no extra stiffeness. Cutting about 1/4 coil off such a spring will, I believe lower it about 1" and increase the spring rate by about 10% or a little more.

abarks · 10-04-2009, 01:15 PM

G-Authority -

Thanks for the info. I used the formula on the Eaton Springs website to create a spring rate calculator spreadsheet. I pulled the stock springs, measured them, added the values into my spreadsheet.

Bottom line: 3/8 of a coil results in 9.5% rate increase. 1/2 coil is 13% increase. The value is essentially identical for front and rear springs.

My plan at the moment is to remove 3/8 of a coil from each for starters. There is clearly a point at which cutting springs will take away too much suspension travel for the resulting spring rate increase. I'm sure that's were folks start to get into trouble. At some point, a spring would simply have to increase the diameter of the wire in order to increase the rate while retaining the necessary travel.

In my case, I'm only running the car on a race track, so I shouldn't need all of the suspension travel. Second, I'm removing weight, so I need to lower the car back down.

That's my plan. I'll post the results when I put the car back together.

jholder · 10-04-2009, 01:25 PM

I seem to recall that it is possible for the crowd to vote to have your car destroyed as a penalty..... Is that right? If thats the case, he could spend the money and still lose all of it

ahh yes....

* $500 limit to prep car. This includes the purchase price of the car, any modifications made to it, and other assorted expenses (such as labor and sponsorships) are figured into the cost. Approved safety equipment (see below) plus brakes, wheels, and tires are not included in the $500 figure.
* Items sold off of a car can be deducted from the total spent, so it is possible to buy a more expensive car and sell off parts, or sell parts and buy better equipment. (i.e. Selling off parts from a BMW or other similar Luxury Car to circumvent/comply with the $500 rule.)
o If the event organizers feel the car has exceeded its $500 limit, they assign whats called a BSF (Bull**** Factor), where every $10 the car exceeds over the $500 is docked one lap.
* Car must have four wheels and been legal for highway use at its time of manufacture.
* Event organizers have full rights to buy the car for $500 at the end of the race.
* Event organizers have full rights to outright destroy the car at anytime however they see fit.

Not sure I'd want to invest in much when you could lose it for 500. :/ still sounds like fun though.

q-authority · 10-04-2009, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abarks

G-Authority -

Thanks for the info. I used the formula on the Eaton Springs website to create a spring rate calculator spreadsheet. I pulled the stock springs, measured them, added the values into my spreadsheet.

Bottom line: 3/8 of a coil results in 9.5% rate increase. 1/2 coil is 13% increase. The value is essentially identical for front and rear springs.

My plan at the moment is to remove 3/8 of a coil from each for starters. There is clearly a point at which cutting springs will take away too much suspension travel for the resulting spring rate increase. I'm sure that's were folks start to get into trouble. At some point, a spring would simply have to increase the diameter of the wire in order to increase the rate while retaining the necessary travel.

In my case, I'm only running the car on a race track, so I shouldn't need all of the suspension travel. Second, I'm removing weight, so I need to lower the car back down.

That's my plan. I'll post the results when I put the car back together.

I had gotten my info elsewhere, but I checked out the Eaton site, and their Tech section. They had a very nice piece on calculating how to cut springs. Good luck with your project, and keep us informed as to how it turns out. I think this can be very useful for those on a budget, and who are willing to take the time to do things right.

abarks · 10-04-2009, 04:53 PM

J-Holder:

I hear you on the rule about LeMons destroying your car. I'm not a fan. My plan is to run in ChumpCar, a competitor series to LeMons. Basically, a car prepped for one series can be run in the other. LeMons, I believe, was the original series; therefore, most people don't make distinction between the two.

Chumpcar's rule makes more sense to me: they reserve the right to buy any car for $1500. My teammate and I are basically tracking to that. We bought a car with a running drivetrain and light crash damage for $400. We are doing extensive maintenance: timing belt, new hoses, ball joints, tire rod ends, OEM-style shocks, brake master, brake hoses, clutch master, and clutch slave. We're focusing on reliability and safety at this point. If we can do a cage from these guys Roll Cage Kits, Roll Cages, Produced by Roll Cage Components and Racing Accessories, we should be able to have a competition-ready car for $1500.

My teammate and I both have extensive experience working on cars, so we are doing practically all of the labor. We have to find someone to weld the cage, though.

At this point, we will probably cut the springs a bit. I'll report back on the results.

jimmer411 · 10-05-2009, 06:07 PM

What about putting rear springs up front and cutting them? They have a higher spring rate than the front, might balance things out. After all, it is lemons..lol

Raptor13x · 10-05-2009, 06:49 PM

The front and rear have different spring rates for a reason. The rear is heavier.

q-authority · 10-05-2009, 07:25 PM

They are also shaped quite differently at the top, and would not fit

scottohno · 11-18-2009, 12:05 AM

you pay shipping ill send you my 23 year old stock springs. lol i put an eiback lowering kit on my car and it RAISED it an inch in the back. lmao. seriously it prolly wouldnt be that expensive. i know youre looking for zero, but we know these will fit and work properly. they ARE a little worn out though. haha.

mattdouken · 11-18-2009, 12:34 AM

anyone know the affects of cutting MKII springs?

Maruki-kun · 11-18-2009, 04:43 AM

have you tried heating your spring, letting the car drop to desired height and then stop heating?

328FTW · 11-18-2009, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ku-sama

have you tried heating your spring, letting the car drop to desired height and then stop heating?

Cutting is better than heating, heating them just makes them go all soft and floppy and some people don't put a stop block under the car so they heat them till the car starts to drop and they take away the heat but the steel retains heat (duh) and it goes splot onto the floor and stays there. I lol at that point.

q-authority · 11-18-2009, 12:13 PM

Torching springs is really what has given changing the profile of stock springs such a bad name. I've seen custom shop guys do it, but it is meant only as a very cheap alternative where the car is not expected to be driven much in that condition. Torching the springs will also change the tension and strength characteristics of the wound steel, and will alter the spring rate in a manner that will be completely unpredictable. With cutting you can predict the new rate change, as long as you do it correctly, and have a very useable spring.

10-02-2009, 01:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
abarks No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Anyone tried cutting stock springs? I know what you're thinking: why do that when Eibach will sell you a much better solution for not-a-lot of money. I am building a MK1 car for 24 Hours of LeMons, so I have to keep the expenditures down. I'm dropping in new struts, and it sure is tempting to lop off those springs. The only issue I see (aside from how much to lop) is the cone shape of the rear springs. The diameter of the coil is bigger at the top - like a cone. Does anyone have any experience cutting these? Were you able to get them to seat well in the back? If so, how much did you cut?

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10-02-2009, 02:08 PM	#2 (permalink)
o6spdracer Nothing Clever Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,187 Thanks: 1 Thanked 112 Times in 107 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I would strongly suggest you do NOT cut the stock springs. You will blow out your new struts faster and the ride quality will suck! Save up and buy a set of TRD ones from Aaron at Lithia Toyota (email awillis@lithia.com). He is running a group buy on them and those springs will probably be discontinued soon (if not already). It will be cheaper in the long run to change out the springs now and than having to replace the blown struts from cutting the springs.

10-02-2009, 02:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
lsgheero RAR! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 747 Thanks: 9 Thanked 31 Times in 31 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	We have had threads on this before... guys he is doing a race that you are only allowed to spend x number of dollars on the car for in order to participate (aka within a very small budget). Therefore he most likely cant/wouldnt buy new/aftermarket springs if he can get away with it. plus I think the cap for spending 24hol is like a grand lol. To OP as for the springs I have never done it but search the forum a bit as I mentioned we have had users as this question oddly enough regarding the same race lol....

10-02-2009, 04:13 PM	#5 (permalink)
Raptor13x Legendary Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Farmington Hills, MI Posts: 3,997 Thanks: 7 Thanked 44 Times in 37 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	Oh my god some of you FAIL at reading. He said he is entering the 24 hours of lemons... that means he has approximately $0.00 budget for aftermarket parts, per the rules. Aftermarket springs cost $200+ on average, which would DESTROY his budget for the important things. Despite commonly held belief, you CAN cut your springs with good results. It just gets a bad name because 99% of people that do it do it wrong, and don't understand exactly what is happening when they cut them. When you cut your springs, you INCREASE the spring rate. If the shocks are left stock, this will mean they will be inadequate for the modified springs (hence the bouncing you see). However, most aftermarket springs also have a higher spring rate, so you really need better shocks either way, which I'm glad to see you're adding. The HUGE advantage in cutting your springs over using aftermarket is that, although you are increasing spring rate, you're leaving it in the stock ratio front-rear, which most aftermarket spring companies change for the worse. The next area most people screw up is by not measuring and cutting the EXACT same amount off each spring. Cut no more than 1/2 coil before reassembling the car and testing it. The steps to do so are as follows: (reference = Chassis Engineering, by Herb Adams, paraphrased) 1) Carefully remove the coil springs. Note how the end coils of the springs are slightly bent so that it seats properly in the strut assembly. 2) Mark off exactly 1/2 coil on the spring. 3) Cut the spring using an acetylene torch or saw. 4) Heat the 1/2 coil below your cut so you can bend it to match the spring's original shape. 5) Quickly turn the spring upside down and bend the top coil by pushing down on the spring. Do NOT quench the spring with water, allow it to air-cool slowly. 6) Paint the spring to avoid rust and reinstall.

10-03-2009, 08:05 AM	#6 (permalink)
abarks No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Thank you, Raptor13x, for your comments. You're right, I'm looking to spend no money. I simply do no buy that cutting a spring is always bad. Cutting too much spring is always bad. The question is how much is too much. If anyone has a link to the thread that you mentioned, please send it. I cannot find it. If anyone has experience with cutting the stock spring, I'd like to know how much you cut and the results that you got.

10-03-2009, 10:37 AM	#7 (permalink)
Raptor13x Legendary Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Farmington Hills, MI Posts: 3,997 Thanks: 7 Thanked 44 Times in 37 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	I was referencing a book, not a thread.

10-04-2009, 01:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
abarks No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	G-Authority - Thanks for the info. I used the formula on the Eaton Springs website to create a spring rate calculator spreadsheet. I pulled the stock springs, measured them, added the values into my spreadsheet. Bottom line: 3/8 of a coil results in 9.5% rate increase. 1/2 coil is 13% increase. The value is essentially identical for front and rear springs. My plan at the moment is to remove 3/8 of a coil from each for starters. There is clearly a point at which cutting springs will take away too much suspension travel for the resulting spring rate increase. I'm sure that's were folks start to get into trouble. At some point, a spring would simply have to increase the diameter of the wire in order to increase the rate while retaining the necessary travel. In my case, I'm only running the car on a race track, so I shouldn't need all of the suspension travel. Second, I'm removing weight, so I need to lower the car back down. That's my plan. I'll post the results when I put the car back together.

10-04-2009, 01:25 PM	#10 (permalink)
jholder I put the ho in 'hosale Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 468 Thanks: 8 Thanked 16 Times in 12 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	I seem to recall that it is possible for the crowd to vote to have your car destroyed as a penalty..... Is that right? If thats the case, he could spend the money and still lose all of it ahh yes.... * $500 limit to prep car. This includes the purchase price of the car, any modifications made to it, and other assorted expenses (such as labor and sponsorships) are figured into the cost. Approved safety equipment (see below) plus brakes, wheels, and tires are not included in the $500 figure. * Items sold off of a car can be deducted from the total spent, so it is possible to buy a more expensive car and sell off parts, or sell parts and buy better equipment. (i.e. Selling off parts from a BMW or other similar Luxury Car to circumvent/comply with the $500 rule.) o If the event organizers feel the car has exceeded its $500 limit, they assign whats called a BSF (Bull**** Factor), where every $10 the car exceeds over the $500 is docked one lap. * Car must have four wheels and been legal for highway use at its time of manufacture. * Event organizers have full rights to buy the car for $500 at the end of the race. * Event organizers have full rights to outright destroy the car at anytime however they see fit. Not sure I'd want to invest in much when you could lose it for 500. :/ still sounds like fun though.

10-04-2009, 04:53 PM	#12 (permalink)
abarks No Skills Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	J-Holder: I hear you on the rule about LeMons destroying your car. I'm not a fan. My plan is to run in ChumpCar, a competitor series to LeMons. Basically, a car prepped for one series can be run in the other. LeMons, I believe, was the original series; therefore, most people don't make distinction between the two. Chumpcar's rule makes more sense to me: they reserve the right to buy any car for $1500. My teammate and I are basically tracking to that. We bought a car with a running drivetrain and light crash damage for $400. We are doing extensive maintenance: timing belt, new hoses, ball joints, tire rod ends, OEM-style shocks, brake master, brake hoses, clutch master, and clutch slave. We're focusing on reliability and safety at this point. If we can do a cage from these guys Roll Cage Kits, Roll Cages, Produced by Roll Cage Components and Racing Accessories, we should be able to have a competition-ready car for $1500. My teammate and I both have extensive experience working on cars, so we are doing practically all of the labor. We have to find someone to weld the cage, though. At this point, we will probably cut the springs a bit. I'll report back on the results.

10-05-2009, 06:07 PM	#13 (permalink)
jimmer411 NA > Boost Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Enumclaw, WA Posts: 112 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	What about putting rear springs up front and cutting them? They have a higher spring rate than the front, might balance things out. After all, it is lemons..lol

10-05-2009, 06:49 PM	#14 (permalink)
Raptor13x Legendary Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Farmington Hills, MI Posts: 3,997 Thanks: 7 Thanked 44 Times in 37 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	The front and rear have different spring rates for a reason. The rear is heavier.

10-05-2009, 07:25 PM	#15 (permalink)
q-authority Professional Multislacker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 506 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	They are also shaped quite differently at the top, and would not fit

11-18-2009, 12:05 AM	#16 (permalink)
scottohno control your hose Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Fox Lake, IL Posts: 5,100 Thanks: 43 Thanked 93 Times in 83 Posts iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	you pay shipping ill send you my 23 year old stock springs. lol i put an eiback lowering kit on my car and it RAISED it an inch in the back. lmao. seriously it prolly wouldnt be that expensive. i know youre looking for zero, but we know these will fit and work properly. they ARE a little worn out though. haha.

11-18-2009, 12:34 AM	#17 (permalink)
mattdouken Driver Of The Seven Sea's Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Greensboro,NC Posts: 702 Thanks: 53 Thanked 29 Times in 18 Posts iTrader Rating: (9/100% )	anyone know the affects of cutting MKII springs?

11-18-2009, 04:43 AM	#18 (permalink)
Maruki-kun Cage Fighter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Millington, MD Posts: 2,487 Thanks: 9 Thanked 74 Times in 67 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (5/100% )	have you tried heating your spring, letting the car drop to desired height and then stop heating?

11-18-2009, 12:13 PM	#20 (permalink)
q-authority Professional Multislacker Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 506 Thanks: 0 Thanked 17 Times in 17 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Torching springs is really what has given changing the profile of stock springs such a bad name. I've seen custom shop guys do it, but it is meant only as a very cheap alternative where the car is not expected to be driven much in that condition. Torching the springs will also change the tension and strength characteristics of the wound steel, and will alter the spring rate in a manner that will be completely unpredictable. With cutting you can predict the new rate change, as long as you do it correctly, and have a very useable spring.