Honda Engine in the AW11 - Pitchforks Anyone? (J35)

IDon'tKnow · 11-20-2009, 11:45 AM

Alright guys, slow down, don't jump to conclusions out of the gate. I think I might have devised a plan to swap a Honda motor into the MK1 that isn't just plain idiotic. I know how all of you purist have responded to this sort of inquiry in the past, and it wasn't pretty. You're free to flame me as you like, but I think my reasoning on this one is sound so hear me out.

ENGINE CANDIDATE: Honda Odyssey J35A6, 3,471cc 60* V6 with J32A2 Pistons

TRANNY CANDIDATE: Acura TL Type-S 6 Speed Manual

Reasoning:

The J motor is cheaper (My friend has both motors, J32 & J35 sitting in his storage unit right now and he'll give them to me for a song)
Guys over in the Honda crowd are swapping the J32A2 pistons out of the TL Type-S into these Odyssey motors (making the CR something like 11.8:1) and making 290hp at the wheels.
It's intake manifold design is more conducive to MR placement, at least in the MK1 with less space than the MK2.... hopefully I can get it in without having to chop up a bulkhead
The 6 speed, apart from the fact that I can get these motors very cheap and that they make great power, this is the main reason for choosing this direction
The 6 Speed is a cable box so making it work in an MR vehicle shouldn't be too much trouble. The Evora isn't going to be coughing up the 6 speed for the GR anytime soon.... at least not for a decent price.
The new TL Type-S motors have very nice inlet manifolds and they are a direct swap
Piss people off
Do something different

The plan is to buy the motors in the next few days and sit on them until the funds are accumulated to move forward on this. I plan on putting fresh bearings, rings, of course head gaskets, and a fresh hone on the motor.

I'll have to find a 6 speed for it, they can be found for about $600.

Megasquirt kit will be on it's way for Christmas and I'll get that up and going on the 4AGE first, but will have it on hand for the J motor.

My buddy swears up and down that he can get the original splines swapped onto modified TL axles for $200, so that's a big expense averted.

After that it's a handful (albeit are fairly large handful) of small expenses to get everything up and going.

Alright guys: flame away!

CJMR2T · 11-20-2009, 12:05 PM

No flamming here as Im the type of person that looks at the overall picture in respect to performance and reliability. I couldn't care less who made the equipment, I care about how well it performs and how long it lasts at a particular power level and how well it delivers that power....

So with that being said, what is the weight differance? That a big factor. Is it going to be noticable heavier?? If so then that alone makes it not a good idea. Another thing is dont worry about what people are doing to get to a particular power level, worry more about if its reliable at that power level. What good is an engine that makes XXX hp if it only last a year doing so...

One other thing though, aren't those engine some sort of Vtec? If so, your not going to get the same power with a megasquirt cause you car control the Vtec correctly especially if it is a i-VTEC equiped engine...

IDon'tKnow · 11-20-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CJMR2T

how long it lasts at a particular power level and how well it delivers that power....

Reliability is certainly a concern for me. Apart from the torque issue, it's probably the main reason I would prefer a V6. The engine in my Acura RL is a J35A3; it's got 94k on it and runs like clock work and it's beautifully linear. (The RL is 1,000lbs. heavier than the MK1)

Quote:

what is the weight differance?

I can't give you an authoritative answer to this at this point, but I've seen #'s posted around (we all know how reliable those can be) that claim the engine weights a hair over 325lbs with everything on it. That leads me to believe that it's actually a bit lighter than the big Yota 6's. I don't have a scale on hand that can read that high so I can't just go weight them.

Quote:

worry more about if its reliable at that power level

There are plenty of Honda guys that make - and have made for a long time - upwards of 450hp on those J motors with boost on factory internals. I would guess that with a bumped up CR and good gas the motor should be fine - after all Toyota and Honda are legendary for their reliability.

Quote:

One other thing though, aren't those engine some sort of Vtec?

Megasquirt has a VTEC control circuit - or one can be added. Although I haven't read into in depth, I've seen a little bit of info about it on DIYAutotune.

bassman54 · 11-20-2009, 12:57 PM

If Paul Woods can drop and Audi V8 into his MK1, you can drop whatever into yours. The difference is he's doing it, and the MK1 community is way into it. Just do it. Build the motor. Get the motor. Take some measurements. Commit to the project.

Just do it.

lucky_charms · 11-20-2009, 01:30 PM

yeah just go ahead and start the project

randomxzero · 11-20-2009, 03:18 PM

Ya man no flaming here..
i would have flamed if you were swapping in a B16 or B20 but a J35, its something different, good luck on the swap man!..

IDon'tKnow · 11-20-2009, 07:18 PM

Well, I'm not in the best shape financially right now so you won't see this progressing particularly quickly, but I bought both of those engines a few hours ago and I'm pretty excited about all of this.

I should have taken some pictures of them on the floor of the storage unit. I guess that will have to wait till I get my hands on some engine stands and move them elsewhere.

I think I'm going to throw some ARP bolts on them and get the rods shot peened as well. Turns out that the 3.5 is a J35A4 - Which means it has a cast crank - makes me a bit nervous - but I suppose I'll be fine seeing as I am not trying to build a 9k rpm monster and that same engine has been used by plenty of other tuners with good results and 7200rpm redlines. The benefit to using that engine is that the heads are exactly the same as the 3.2 liter type-s head.... big ports, big valves, and better cams.

Also, another bonus is that one of the motors already has DC Headers on it - that's at least $400 saved on the build since there is no chance I would run with the factory cat-in-header manifolds.

I'm going to use my parts car to get everything mocked up and measured so I won't be without a my daily driver while I pursue this..... objective which will probably take me quite a while to achieve.

Thanks for the encouragement guys..... it seems you've eliminated reasoning bullet #6.

Edit: Oh yes, and I've been told by a reliable source that these J motors are incredibly reliable - +300k mile service life.

Just for clarity:
Step one in Project J35 AW11 has been taken. Today I bought a J35A4 (240hp / 242tq) and a J32A2 (260hp / 232tq).

Denz · 11-23-2009, 06:19 AM

This sounds good
ive done a small bit of looking around about these engines.
Here honda engines are so damn cheap.

328FTW · 11-23-2009, 08:30 AM

Alright coming back down to earth you have to think about A LOT of little things when putting in an engine like this. Wiring is one thing that is killer if you go stand alone you still have to wire it and then tune as well most likely without a base map since near stock motors don't usually get stand alone it's reserved for turbos, insane n/a builds or running on alcohol so you will be self tuning or paying someone.

Also axles will have to be made you will need honda one side and toyota the other and now it the time to think about strut and rotor upgrades as you could use any spline/strut combo you wish at this point being custom but once you commit to the type of frakinshaft you are locked to it.

Engine mounts will have to be made which is not an issue its that with the motor being so different the stock mounting point on the motor may not match strong mounting points on the body which means some thought has to be put into where you bolt to the body. Also you will need dampening if its a road car not solid mounts which means you have to choose what type of mount ie rubber sandwhich, polyfills etc etc

Shifting cables will have to be made and set to move the right amount to allow selection of all gears in the standard H pattern not a backwards H either

and the shift arms will likely being a fwd honda engine on the wrong side so you can go ghetto like I did or figure something else out. Also some honda trannys use pipe shifters which is going to require you to swapping that to a cable system. Also the clutch will need to be setup somehow with brackets.

Then there is auxiliarys like AC if you want it and water plumbing honda may use a different diamter water pipe so you have to get creative like I did with the 3sge swap I used tractor pipes in that thing lol. Also you will have to fuse everything in case of a short so you will have to stup your own fuse system unless you intend to integrate into the existing mki stuff in which case get familiar with wiring diagrams been there done that it is frustrating and can prove fruitless.

Also throttle cabling and where the wires come through the body and where the things like the igniter bolting to the body, may seem silly and "easy" but these little things add up to one big headache and eat heaps of time especially at crank time because you get eager to start it but it's not quite ready best thing is to have it all sorted so if it does not start when you first start trying it is easy to track and trace.

Sorry for the long rant but there is a lot to it and it gets fiddly all I can remember from swaps is the hours spent finding threaded bolt holes to bolt that one last thing down and redoing firewalls. Good luck with it anyway I think you will see what I mean with fiddly once you get into it those 10 minute jobs add up

IDon'tKnow · 11-23-2009, 10:01 AM

I don't imagine that I'm in for an easy and pain free swap. In fact, if I were to go at this alone I would definitely go with something better explored. I'm simply not very mechanically experience when it comes to in depth hands on work.

My good fortune in this situation is that a good friend of mine, who just happens to have been the lead mechanic at the two best tuning shop / dyno centers here in North AL, is extremely excited about this project and is going to be lending me his support free of charge.

The shifter assembly that mates to the 6 speed looks almost identical to the MK1 shifter assembly and I'm hoping that will be a stroke of luck.

I've been spending a good bit of time pouring over information about the J series engine and am very confident that I can make 300+ whp with inexpensive off the shelf OEM components and some port work. Crank, Rods, & Pistons are all available FORGED... off the shelf OEM.

The first order of business is going to be for me to clean out the engine bay of my parts car and start disassembly on the motors. Once the parts are disassembled and I have the parts for my build set out, I'll take the spares and assemble a mock up case to use to get mount locations, exhaust, coolant hose routing & axles sorted out. I'll need to get my hands on a transmission before doing the mock up so I'll be keeping my eye out for a good deal.

While that waits I will put the block, rods, & tb in the machine shop for some love. I'll work on port matching and porting the headers, upper & lower intake manifold, and heads in the mean time. I've also got plenty of research ahead of me to get all of my Megasquirt ducks in a line.

All in all I do agree that this is a daunting task to say the least, but if I take it one step at a time I'll eventually end up with something very special. At least I will have the parts car and spare engine assembly to work with. You'll see a build thread started in the not so distant future.

11-20-2009, 11:45 AM	#1 (permalink)
IDon'tKnow but I can find out. Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: DC Posts: 392 Thanks: 6 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Honda Engine in the AW11 - Pitchforks Anyone? (J35) Alright guys, slow down, don't jump to conclusions out of the gate. I think I might have devised a plan to swap a Honda motor into the MK1 that isn't just plain idiotic. I know how all of you purist have responded to this sort of inquiry in the past, and it wasn't pretty. You're free to flame me as you like, but I think my reasoning on this one is sound so hear me out. ENGINE CANDIDATE: Honda Odyssey J35A6, 3,471cc 60* V6 with J32A2 Pistons TRANNY CANDIDATE: Acura TL Type-S 6 Speed Manual Reasoning: The J motor is cheaper (My friend has both motors, J32 & J35 sitting in his storage unit right now and he'll give them to me for a song) Guys over in the Honda crowd are swapping the J32A2 pistons out of the TL Type-S into these Odyssey motors (making the CR something like 11.8:1) and making 290hp at the wheels. It's intake manifold design is more conducive to MR placement, at least in the MK1 with less space than the MK2.... hopefully I can get it in without having to chop up a bulkhead The 6 speed, apart from the fact that I can get these motors very cheap and that they make great power, this is the main reason for choosing this direction The 6 Speed is a cable box so making it work in an MR vehicle shouldn't be too much trouble. The Evora isn't going to be coughing up the 6 speed for the GR anytime soon.... at least not for a decent price. The new TL Type-S motors have very nice inlet manifolds and they are a direct swap Piss people off Do something different The plan is to buy the motors in the next few days and sit on them until the funds are accumulated to move forward on this. I plan on putting fresh bearings, rings, of course head gaskets, and a fresh hone on the motor. I'll have to find a 6 speed for it, they can be found for about $600. Megasquirt kit will be on it's way for Christmas and I'll get that up and going on the 4AGE first, but will have it on hand for the J motor. My buddy swears up and down that he can get the original splines swapped onto modified TL axles for $200, so that's a big expense averted. After that it's a handful (albeit are fairly large handful) of small expenses to get everything up and going. Alright guys: flame away!

11-20-2009, 07:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
IDon'tKnow but I can find out. Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: DC Posts: 392 Thanks: 6 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Well, I'm not in the best shape financially right now so you won't see this progressing particularly quickly, but I bought both of those engines a few hours ago and I'm pretty excited about all of this. I should have taken some pictures of them on the floor of the storage unit. I guess that will have to wait till I get my hands on some engine stands and move them elsewhere. I think I'm going to throw some ARP bolts on them and get the rods shot peened as well. Turns out that the 3.5 is a J35A4 - Which means it has a cast crank - makes me a bit nervous - but I suppose I'll be fine seeing as I am not trying to build a 9k rpm monster and that same engine has been used by plenty of other tuners with good results and 7200rpm redlines. The benefit to using that engine is that the heads are exactly the same as the 3.2 liter type-s head.... big ports, big valves, and better cams. Also, another bonus is that one of the motors already has DC Headers on it - that's at least $400 saved on the build since there is no chance I would run with the factory cat-in-header manifolds. I'm going to use my parts car to get everything mocked up and measured so I won't be without a my daily driver while I pursue this..... objective which will probably take me quite a while to achieve. Thanks for the encouragement guys..... it seems you've eliminated reasoning bullet #6. Edit: Oh yes, and I've been told by a reliable source that these J motors are incredibly reliable - +300k mile service life. Just for clarity: Step one in Project J35 AW11 has been taken. Today I bought a J35A4 (240hp / 242tq) and a J32A2 (260hp / 232tq). Last edited by IDon'tKnow; 11-20-2009 at 07:33 PM..

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11-20-2009, 12:05 PM	#2 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,688 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	No flamming here as Im the type of person that looks at the overall picture in respect to performance and reliability. I couldn't care less who made the equipment, I care about how well it performs and how long it lasts at a particular power level and how well it delivers that power.... So with that being said, what is the weight differance? That a big factor. Is it going to be noticable heavier?? If so then that alone makes it not a good idea. Another thing is dont worry about what people are doing to get to a particular power level, worry more about if its reliable at that power level. What good is an engine that makes XXX hp if it only last a year doing so... One other thing though, aren't those engine some sort of Vtec? If so, your not going to get the same power with a megasquirt cause you car control the Vtec correctly especially if it is a i-VTEC equiped engine...

11-20-2009, 12:57 PM	#4 (permalink)
bassman54 Ol' School Skills Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: So Cal Posts: 184 Thanks: 15 Thanked 16 Times in 15 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	If Paul Woods can drop and Audi V8 into his MK1, you can drop whatever into yours. The difference is he's doing it, and the MK1 community is way into it. Just do it. Build the motor. Get the motor. Take some measurements. Commit to the project. Just do it.

11-20-2009, 01:30 PM	#5 (permalink)
lucky_charms custom Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: moving back to tpa fl thank god Posts: 442 Thanks: 10 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (-1/0% )	yeah just go ahead and start the project

11-20-2009, 03:18 PM	#6 (permalink)
randomxzero 562 Understeer Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: 562 Posts: 1,171 Thanks: 10 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Ya man no flaming here.. i would have flamed if you were swapping in a B16 or B20 but a J35, its something different, good luck on the swap man!..

11-23-2009, 06:19 AM	#8 (permalink)
Denz Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2008 Location: Hamilton, New Zealand Posts: 487 Thanks: 2 Thanked 16 Times in 16 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	This sounds good ive done a small bit of looking around about these engines. Here honda engines are so damn cheap.

11-23-2009, 08:30 AM	#9 (permalink)
328FTW Crazy Nasty Honey Badger Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 5,235 Thanks: 24 Thanked 266 Times in 239 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Alright coming back down to earth you have to think about A LOT of little things when putting in an engine like this. Wiring is one thing that is killer if you go stand alone you still have to wire it and then tune as well most likely without a base map since near stock motors don't usually get stand alone it's reserved for turbos, insane n/a builds or running on alcohol so you will be self tuning or paying someone. Also axles will have to be made you will need honda one side and toyota the other and now it the time to think about strut and rotor upgrades as you could use any spline/strut combo you wish at this point being custom but once you commit to the type of frakinshaft you are locked to it. Engine mounts will have to be made which is not an issue its that with the motor being so different the stock mounting point on the motor may not match strong mounting points on the body which means some thought has to be put into where you bolt to the body. Also you will need dampening if its a road car not solid mounts which means you have to choose what type of mount ie rubber sandwhich, polyfills etc etc Shifting cables will have to be made and set to move the right amount to allow selection of all gears in the standard H pattern not a backwards H either and the shift arms will likely being a fwd honda engine on the wrong side so you can go ghetto like I did or figure something else out. Also some honda trannys use pipe shifters which is going to require you to swapping that to a cable system. Also the clutch will need to be setup somehow with brackets. Then there is auxiliarys like AC if you want it and water plumbing honda may use a different diamter water pipe so you have to get creative like I did with the 3sge swap I used tractor pipes in that thing lol. Also you will have to fuse everything in case of a short so you will have to stup your own fuse system unless you intend to integrate into the existing mki stuff in which case get familiar with wiring diagrams been there done that it is frustrating and can prove fruitless. Also throttle cabling and where the wires come through the body and where the things like the igniter bolting to the body, may seem silly and "easy" but these little things add up to one big headache and eat heaps of time especially at crank time because you get eager to start it but it's not quite ready best thing is to have it all sorted so if it does not start when you first start trying it is easy to track and trace. Sorry for the long rant but there is a lot to it and it gets fiddly all I can remember from swaps is the hours spent finding threaded bolt holes to bolt that one last thing down and redoing firewalls. Good luck with it anyway I think you will see what I mean with fiddly once you get into it those 10 minute jobs add up

11-23-2009, 10:01 AM	#10 (permalink)
IDon'tKnow but I can find out. Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: DC Posts: 392 Thanks: 6 Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	I don't imagine that I'm in for an easy and pain free swap. In fact, if I were to go at this alone I would definitely go with something better explored. I'm simply not very mechanically experience when it comes to in depth hands on work. My good fortune in this situation is that a good friend of mine, who just happens to have been the lead mechanic at the two best tuning shop / dyno centers here in North AL, is extremely excited about this project and is going to be lending me his support free of charge. The shifter assembly that mates to the 6 speed looks almost identical to the MK1 shifter assembly and I'm hoping that will be a stroke of luck. I've been spending a good bit of time pouring over information about the J series engine and am very confident that I can make 300+ whp with inexpensive off the shelf OEM components and some port work. Crank, Rods, & Pistons are all available FORGED... off the shelf OEM. The first order of business is going to be for me to clean out the engine bay of my parts car and start disassembly on the motors. Once the parts are disassembled and I have the parts for my build set out, I'll take the spares and assemble a mock up case to use to get mount locations, exhaust, coolant hose routing & axles sorted out. I'll need to get my hands on a transmission before doing the mock up so I'll be keeping my eye out for a good deal. While that waits I will put the block, rods, & tb in the machine shop for some love. I'll work on port matching and porting the headers, upper & lower intake manifold, and heads in the mean time. I've also got plenty of research ahead of me to get all of my Megasquirt ducks in a line. All in all I do agree that this is a daunting task to say the least, but if I take it one step at a time I'll eventually end up with something very special. At least I will have the parts car and spare engine assembly to work with. You'll see a build thread started in the not so distant future.