Sound Quality

[MANDALAY]

I thought ild start this thread given what was said in another thread.
Start yes obviously i have a MR2 and it has a new RED TOP BEAMS installed.
Being in car audio for 28 years doesnt necessary make me an expert but i was there which some people would discribe as the beginning.
My other car is a 318is BMW with a full blow IASCA sound quality system that has retired undefeated. It beat the pros on point score. It was in the 300-600 watt class and was finally crowned the Australasian champion. It was heavy featured as it had breakthough technology that was only coming in. I wanted the best system in Australia and searched around the world. I came across Eric from speakerworks then DAVID NAVONE and RICHARD CLARK of Autosound 2000 who taught me a lot and dispelled a lot of myths. Trouble shooting and WHAT TO DO .
With this knowledge i realise the MR2 would never be the host for such a system so l have left it stock. Now for all the MR2 guys and gals lets start from the beginning and have a mature discussion about the pros and cons about adding equipment, selection reasons and ultimate results. Please note budjets need not apply . This is a pure thread which will show limitations of equipment and short comings. Lets be mature and see if we can help anyone reading this thread, SO LETS START

[MANDALAY]

SELECTION OF A HEAD UNIT.
What is important besides features , cost , brand.

[MANDALAY]

No one want to start it ?
Not interested ?
Let me start anyone consider output impedance ?
Output voltage ?
Check for isolation ?

[Luni]

Well, Ill chime in and say how you can figure out how much power your amps are capble of pulling, or how you can check to see if youre overtaxing your stock charging system.

Wattage is calculated by volts * amps.

So if your amplifier says its x amount of watts, look at the fuse it comes with. If it comes with a 25 amp fuse, you know at 14.4 volts it could never output more than 360 watts. No matter what its advertised at, 360 watts. If it were to make more power, youd exceed the fuse amperage and POP the fuse.

So you can also use the same formula to determine if your amplifier load will put too much stress on your charging system. At first I was doing 2 different equations for the 2 different types of charging systems found in MK2 MR2s, but after realizing the 30a difference between EHPS and non EHPS cars, I figure the EHPS might just use that 30 amps so I just treat it like it isnt there.

The charging system is good for 1008 watts RMS before your alt has absolutely NOTHING left to charge the battery.

And keeping in mind the average car takes 10-20 amps to run all the systems, so you should take 20a off the top and do your math for the difference. So in the REAL world this means you shouldnt be running more than: 720 watts RMS

So again, to restate: Watts = amperage * voltage. If you follow this you wont ever overdraw your charging system. This can also help you determine how many more amps your alt would need to output in order to keep your car/system happy.

[DenverMR2]

When looking at a head unit i look at features then rca output voltage the only other thing i may look at is distortion. Luni that actually is a perfect equation as that equation is constantly proven in physics. It is part of Ohms law power=amperage*voltage is one equation and the other is voltage=amperage*resistance.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by DenverMR2

When looking at a head unit i look at features then rca output voltage the only other thing i may look at is distortion. Luni that actually is a perfect equation as that equation is constantly proven in physics. It is part of Ohms law power=amperage*voltage is one equation and the other is voltage=amperage*resistance.

So what is considered the norm these days as voltage output ?
How do you check distortion at full volume ?
You havent cosidered output impedance ? I guess thats normal only to fully build a system and then cry over having alternator whine and wantind a magical cure.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by Luni

Well, Ill chime in and say how you can figure out how much power your amps are capble of pulling, or how you can check to see if youre overtaxing your stock charging system.

Wattage is byproduct of volts * amps. It isnt a perfect equation, but it seems to work in the real world especially with car audio, so its a good thing to know.

So if your amplifier says its x amount of watts, look at the fuse it comes with. If it comes with a 25 amp fuse, you know at 14.4 volts it could never output more than 360 watts. No matter what its advertised at, 360 watts. If it were to make more power, youd exceed the fuse amperage and POP the fuse.

So you can also use the same formula to determine if your amplifier load will put too much stress on your charging system. At first I was doing 2 different equations for the 2 different types of charging systems found in MK2 MR2s, but after realizing the 30a difference between EHPS and non EHPS cars, I figure the EHPS might just use that 30 amps so I just treat it like it isnt there.

The charging system is good for 1008 watts RMS before your alt has absolutely NOTHING left to charge the battery.

And keeping in mind the average car takes 10-20 amps to run all the systems, so you should take 20a off the top and do your math for the difference. So in the REAL world this means you shouldnt be running more than: 720 watts RMS

So again, to restate: Watts = amperage * voltage. And again it isnt a perfect equation that is the end all solution, but it works pretty well and if you follow this you wont ever overdraw your charging system. This can also help you determine how many more amps your alt would need to output in order to keep your car/system happy.

A fuse is to prevent a fire in the case of a short circuit .
You math is correct but NO ONE jams up the street listening to sine waves.
Music is dynamic. If you set your amp gains correctly with no overlap it will be working full 100% at only 10% of the time.
In SPL and Drag comps yes the alternator has to be big .THATS WHERE THE POWER comes from. Yes caps have no relevance. Thats if its want your in to. Sound quality is what im in to. And frankly ill rather have a system that can play loud and accurate. My system is LOUD and not by exaggerating 10 db gain on the sub. It is flat. Caps have relevance here to release the energy immediately when needed.
Thats where all you guys have misunderstood me

[DenverMR2]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

Caps have relevance here to release the energy immediately when needed.
Thats where all you guys have misunderstood me

I fully understand you there sorry if i didn't clarify that and yes I can see where a cap maybe needed but i truly don't think though that it should come before an alt.

I don't measure the distortion i go off what the manufacture says and i would have know clue about how to measure it. And please clarify output impedance.

[MANDALAY]

A head unit has a volume control. It might be 25 , 100 or just a simple knob that says max. They are just numbers. What you have to do is see at what number , position befor it starts to clip. You might find that at 3 / 4 its already in distortion. Make sence ?
As soon as the head unit is giving a distorted signal the amps will amplify it = blown speakers. You need a CATHODE RAY OSCILISCOPE . play a signal CD and then see on the scope the number or position it distorts.
May l recomend getting the Autosound 2000 testdiscs. There in the States
You can do it with these discs if you dont have a CRO.
PS no manufacture prints distortion relative to the control knob. You have to do it.
If a car audio sales man or shop cant quote you output impedance or know what your talking about , JUST LEAVE.The lower the better as close to zero as possible. The lower it is the less chance to pick up noises on the signal cables.Ive had signal cables ontop of the pwercable with no pick up but obviously due to the low impedance.
If this is new ill take it slow and dont be affraid to ask as l believe a lot of this information which we strived to learn has been lost to the new generation.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

A fuse is to prevent a fire in the case of a short circuit .
You math is correct but NO ONE jams up the street listening to sine waves.
Music is dynamic. If you set your amp gains correctly with no overlap it will be working full 100% at only 10% of the time.
In SPL and Drag comps yes the alternator has to be big .THATS WHERE THE POWER comes from. Yes caps have no relevance. Thats if its want your in to. Sound quality is what im in to. And frankly ill rather have a system that can play loud and accurate. My system is LOUD and not by exaggerating 10 db gain on the sub. It is flat. Caps have relevance here to release the energy immediately when needed.
Thats where all you guys have misunderstood me

You also stated in the other thread your SQ system was in the 300-600 watts class. You shouldn't be in any danger of needing an HO Alternator at that wattage. If you have an SQ system pulling 2000-2500 watts total, you'll need an HO Alternator. It's not just SQ vs SPL. Whether SQ or SPL, if your alternator is not capable of supplying the system with the full power, you need to upgrade. I know why are you are saying caps have relevance. You want it so it can supply the dynamic and transient response in an SQ system, most I've met who think this way use it for the mids and highs since they are more audible. I'm met people on both sides of the fence as to whether that makes a difference. Again, if your alternator is capable of supplying the system with the power it needs, you shouldn't need the cap for that, as the HO Alternator is more than capable of supplying the system with the energy immediately when needed. Both SPL and SQ guys benefit from HO Alternator. If your OEM Alternator can't keep up all the time, time for an upgrade.

[Luni]

Yeah, I guess upon looking at it, it is perfect LOL.

Ok, Ill revise my post.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

You also stated in the other thread your SQ system was in the 300-600 watts class. You shouldn't be in any danger of needing an HO Alternator at that wattage. If you have an SQ system pulling 2000-2500 watts total, you'll need an HO Alternator. It's not just SQ vs SPL. Whether SQ or SPL, if your alternator is not capable of supplying the system with the full power, you need to upgrade. I know why are you are saying caps have relevance. You want it so it can supply the dynamic and transient response in an SQ system, most I've met who think this way use it for the mids and highs since they are more audible. I'm met people on both sides of the fence as to whether that makes a difference. Again, if your alternator is capable of supplying the system with the power it needs, you shouldn't need the cap for that, as the HO Alternator is more than capable of supplying the system with the energy immediately when needed. Both SPL and SQ guys benefit from HO Alternator. If your OEM Alternator can't keep up all the time, time for an upgrade.

I might have been the the 300-600 class but my system uses high current. All amps down to 1 ohm more like 4000 watts.
The difference in level from 25 hz to 20,000 hz is approx 8 db.
So lets take a reference 1000 hz if the driver is 90db / 1 watt efficient an increase in loudness by 3 db will be a doubling of power i.e
1 watt=90
2 watt=93
4 watt=96
8 watt=99
16 watt=102
32 watt=105
64 watt=108
128 watt=110
256 watt=113
562 watt=115
1124 watt=118
2248 watt=121
Therefore you can see that you need at least 2248 watts going to the mid just to play 121 db. A second mid will give you an extra 3 db.
So music is transilitional, dynamic so there is at least a 10 db move So if this was your driver and you had a 2248 watt amp most of the time 95% all the amp will be doing is 128 watts get it ? Those short times in transit you will use the 2248 watts. So it you want to play on average WITHOUT COMPRESSION OR DISTORTION 110 db you will need 2248 for those drivers.
Now the best way instead of buying amplifier power = $ get better efficient drivers to start with mine are 110 db/1 watt. So you can see to get the same level all i need is
1 watt = 110 db
2 watt = 113 db
4 watt = 116 db
8 watt = 119 db
16 watt = 121 db
16 watts thats it !
You do the math add see what it really can go up to . This high SPL in this frequency will make you deaf in a few seconds.
Apply this efficiency to all the other drivers and guess what you are not drawing a lot of power at all for a very loud system. The reason again l have all the power is to take car of transits without compression. NO distortion.
Wrong frequency and distortion is what KILLS speakers.
I have run 1000 watts into a toyota factory 5 inch driver without blowing it up >500 hz

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

I might have been the the 300-600 class but my system uses high current. All amps down to 1 ohm more like 4000 watts.
The difference in level from 25 hz to 20,000 hz is approx 8 db.
So lets take a reference 1000 hz if the driver is 90db / 1 watt efficient an increase in loudness by 3 db will be a doubling of power i.e
1 watt=90
2 watt=93
4 watt=96
8 watt=99
16 watt=102
32 watt=105
64 watt=108
128 watt=110
256 watt=113
562 watt=115
1124 watt=118
2248 watt=121
Therefore you can see that you need at least 2248 watts going to the mid just to play 121 db. A second mid will give you an extra 3 db.
So music is transilitional, dynamic so there is at least a 10 db move So if this was your driver and you had a 2248 watt amp most of the time 95% all the amp will be doing is 128 watts get it ? Those short times in transit you will use the 2248 watts. So it you want to play on average WITHOUT COMPRESSION OR DISTORTION 110 db you will need 2248 for those drivers.
Now the best way instead of buying amplifier power = $ get better efficient drivers to start with mine are 110 db/1 watt. So you can see to get the same level all i need is
1 watt = 110 db
2 watt = 113 db
4 watt = 116 db
8 watt = 119 db
16 watt = 121 db
16 watts thats it !
You do the math add see what it really can go up to . This high SPL in this frequency will make you deaf in a few seconds.
Apply this efficiency to all the other drivers and guess what you are not drawing a lot of power at all for a very loud system. The reason again l have all the power is to take car of transits without compression. NO distortion.
Wrong frequency and distortion is what KILLS speakers.
I have run 1000 watts into a toyota factory 5 inch driver without blowing it up >500 hz

Signal to Noise Ratio. I already new that math, and while it is an interesting read for those whom do not...it really has nothing to do with my quote or your original statement. You're original post was about caps and why people didn't need HO Alternators, my post was simply a response to that. Your whole post above is based on the sentence where I said you were in the 300-600 watt class, so you were in no danger of needing a HO Alternator. It was nothing against your system, just a statement of fact that for your power needs, an HO Alternator wasn't required. You quoted my post, but went off on a tangent and never really responded to it.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

Signal to Noise Ratio. I already new that math, and while it is an interesting read for those whom do not...it really has nothing to do with my quote or your original statement. You're original post was about caps and why people didn't need HO Alternators, my post was simply a response to that. Your whole post above is based on the sentence where I said you were in the 300-600 watt class, so you were in no danger of needing a HO Alternator. It was nothing against your system, just a statement of fact that for your power needs, an HO Alternator wasn't required. You quoted my post, but went off on a tangent and never really responded to it.

This thread l started was to show a system and its power requirements.
I have started with the the head unit and its importance. If cant understand the last entry ive made you miss the whole point. As a mature person i give up and you ARE correct . Get a big alternator throw out the caps , buy your $100/meter coax ( God knows you probably have that ) ,Enjoy your ALTERNATOR WHINE ( which you probably have ) and so be it.
Anyone else who would like to share my experience please ask.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

Signal to Noise Ratio. I already new that math, and while it is an interesting read for those whom do not...it really has nothing to do with my quote or your original statement. You're original post was about caps and why people didn't need HO Alternators, my post was simply a response to that. Your whole post above is based on the sentence where I said you were in the 300-600 watt class, so you were in no danger of needing a HO Alternator. It was nothing against your system, just a statement of fact that for your power needs, an HO Alternator wasn't required. You quoted my post, but went off on a tangent and never really responded to it.

So l also have a better undestanding of your level of knowledge. DO YOU know your output impedance of your head unit, the output voltage ,does it clip at full volume ,your processor input output gains, any overlap , its responce etc etc..............
I didnt quote signal:noise ratio , l was quote SPL and power demand.
A good installer would understand everything i have said, they also have the option to tell you and ultimately charge you. I quess today its all about brand,features ( wrong ones ) price and just selling.
All the things l quoted are your starting point. You have not answered anything that l have asked.
If you would follow you will see that AT THE END when all the foundation is set and the system is perfect AND ONLY THEN if there isnt enough power THEN you take it to the next step and consider an Alternator.
Please humor me with the facts about yor system and why you needed a upgrade alternator. Did you check system noise with digital black from the outputs of the RCA's on your head unit, grounds, isolation.
An alternator upgrage is not the be all and end all, Id even bet that with the upgrade the whine is probably tripled !!!!!!!!
Now befor you think im sooki sooki im not here is a smile
The witch craft of car audio has been abolished years ago by people who spent many hours and money to dismiss the lies

[DenverMR2]

if i may ask what is t/s of those speakers that have 110 db sensitivity.

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

This thread l started was to show a system and its power requirements.
I have started with the the head unit and its importance. If cant understand the last entry ive made you miss the whole point. As a mature person i give up and you ARE correct . Get a big alternator throw out the caps , buy your $100/meter coax ( God knows you probably have that ) ,Enjoy your ALTERNATOR WHINE ( which you probably have ) and so be it.
Anyone else who would like to share my experience please ask.

You only get mad because you are incorrect. You throw out insults like "$100/meter" coax cable. I do not have $100/meter coax cable, do not have alternator whine. At 2200 watts, a stiffing cap is useless. I need an HO Alternator, and others in this position would too. You miss the whole point. You missed the point of my comments, you missed the point of everything. I have an IASCA system, yet you can't comprehend this. You rely on insults and change of topic to get your point across. You were wrong in the previous thread on many things. Again, you are the one whom had NO idea DB Drags, IASCA, and USCi all allowed you to compete with the engine running, and some even have categories for charging system upgrades. Only an idiot would think a charging system upgrade is a bad thing. If you think, well, then...

[eckoman_pdx]

Originally Posted by MANDALAY

So l also have a better undestanding of your level of knowledge. DO YOU know your output impedance of your head unit, the output voltage ,does it clip at full volume ,your processor input output gains, any overlap , its responce etc etc..............
I didnt quote signal:noise ratio , l was quote SPL and power demand.
A good installer would understand everything i have said, they also have the option to tell you and ultimately charge you. I quess today its all about brand,features ( wrong ones ) price and just selling.
All the things l quoted are your starting point. You have not answered anything that l have asked.
If you would follow you will see that AT THE END when all the foundation is set and the system is perfect AND ONLY THEN if there isnt enough power THEN you take it to the next step and consider an Alternator.
Please humor me with the facts about yor system and why you needed a upgrade alternator. Did you check system noise with digital black from the outputs of the RCA's on your head unit, grounds, isolation.
An alternator upgrage is not the be all and end all, Id even bet that with the upgrade the whine is probably tripled !!!!!!!!
Now befor you think im sooki sooki im not here is a smile
The witch craft of car audio has been abolished years ago by people who spent many hours and money to dismiss the lies

You quoted Signal to Noise of the speaker, AKA sensitivity, aka SPL (2.83V). 90db/1 watt and 110db/ 1 watt is S/N Ratio of the speaker. You should know that. You only ask if I know what I have because you are ignorant and think I am. I know damn well what I have. You don't have a clue about anything in regards to that. You just insult me and then justify it with some stupid smiley face. You are talking out your ass about what you've read. Why should I play into your game?

You insist on insulting me because I am correct. You push me for my system. Why should I list the specs? So I can post a big "steal me" post for the world to see? You haven't told us yours, you haven't listed your specs. You just talk a big internet game to intimidate people. If you think an OEM 80 Amp alternator and wiring can handle 2200 watts RMS power, properly tuned by the master installer I worked with on the system, you are a moron with no business in car audio. The end.

[MANDALAY]

Thats what the chart is every time you double the wattage you get a 3 db increase for the speaker. Then when you have 2 its another 3 db increase.
Please ask dont be hesitant.
Compression driver. People believe that i have radians , but in actual fact they are custom made units that operate from 350 hz to 20,000 hz. 4 inch diaghram with a 1.5 exit throat. Berylium material. These big units were required so l could lower the cross over frequency to a low 350hz. Does absolute wonders having single point source for most of the directional dependant frequencies.

[MANDALAY]

Originally Posted by eckoman_pdx

You only get mad because you are incorrect. You throw out insults like "$100/meter" coax cable. I do not have $100/meter coax cable, do not have alternator whine. At 2200 watts, a stiffing cap is useless. I need an HO Alternator, and others in this position would too. You miss the whole point. You missed the point of my comments, you missed the point of everything. I have an IASCA system, yet you can't comprehend this. You rely on insults and change of topic to get your point across. You were wrong in the previous thread on many things. Again, you are the one whom had NO idea DB Drags, IASCA, and USCi all allowed you to compete with the engine running, and some even have categories for charging system upgrades. Only an idiot would think a charging system upgrade is a bad thing. If you think, well, then...

So can you answer whats the output impedance is of your head unit ?
Voltage output ? Does your head unit have a isolated power supply ?
Do you run coax or balanced lines ?
Is your car featured in any magazine or will it be ?
Will you be good enough to get an invite to the finals.
Again l can say the same why dont you want to answer these questions ? maybe you dont know.
Pardone me if they changed the rules. But you want to drag on that without moving on then seeing if an alternator upgrade is necessary . Dam do you sell alternators ?
If you are a true IASCA competitor those things would have rolled of your tongue.