about converting AFM to MAP

falcon021084 · 11-20-2009, 04:14 AM

I've been wondering about my American version mr2 has only 105-110 hp

where as Japan and other countries are well above (115-125hp). then i read this

"The use of an air flow meter (MAF) sensor, which restricted air flow slightly but produced cleaner emissions that conformed to the U.S. regulations, limited the power to 112 hp (84 kW) whereas the Japanese model—which used a manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor—produced 130 hp (97 kW)." wtf sup with that? is this really true my maf sensor being this restricted? my friends corolla has a 4age and kicks my ass. we both have the same engine. cept his was imported. can I switch from AFM to MAP? is it possible? if so what do i need?

mr2_mk1.5 · 11-20-2009, 08:47 AM

The easiest way to switch from map is to either get a JDM ecm which I think also requires other mods to the wiring harness and clips but I'm not 100% sure. The second way is to go standalone and the third option is search google for a conversion kit, I know I've seen them for VW's which use the same fuel injection but the last conversion kit I seen was $700+

mr3 · 11-20-2009, 09:51 AM

Or with the money you will be spending, buy a 4age blacktop and swap that in. More than 130 horse power and it's a map based engine. The silver top uses an afm which can be a pain to find.

CJMR2T · 11-20-2009, 11:13 AM

As others have said, you will need at least the JDM or what ever ECU is used on the MAP based engines.... some wiring might need to be changed as well but thats easy as long as the plugs are the same. If the plugs are different, then you'll have a bit harder of a time but it can still be done.

One thing to note is that although MAP based is less restrictive, there is one major inherant flaw with a MAP based system that is not inherant with MAS type systems. This flaw is the Fueling is less sensitive to VE changes in the engine. By this I mean, If you do things to improve the VE (making the engine flow air better), the ECU will not compensate the fuel thus as you inprove VE, your AFR's get leaner. MAS bases systems actually measure the volume of are entering the engine so if you increase VE, you increase the Volume of air being ingested and the MAS is measuing this to calculate the true mass flow of the engine. on a MAP bases system, the ECU is using the simple Ideal Gas Law to calculate the mas flow but in no way accounts for volumetric flow. Remember, MAP is Manifold Absolute Pressure and you can have a decent change in flow volume and overall mass with no real noticable manifold pressure change.

This is why MAP based EMS's are usually in pretty desperate need of "tuning" when you start doing a lot of things to improve VE... At that same token, aftermarket programmable EMS's use MAP based systems due to thier simplisity and robust nature along with the fact that its "tunable"..

MuMan · 12-22-2009, 08:48 AM

It's relative easy to upgrade to the Gen3 JDM MAP based electronics. There's a few good threads about on the subject. I did an upgrade a few years ago using both a Gen3 and blitz access ECU's.
Most of the parts needed can be sourced easily & fairly cheaply. Biggest problem would be the OEM Gen3 MAP at a reasonable price..better still, you could put the cost of that towards a MAP ECU2 ($695) and use the internal MAP. Plus you get full Ign/Fuel control of the stock ECU and a host of other functions to boot..dual mapping, fuel cut, speed cut, 8ch Ign, EBC, O2 adj, WB and a lot more.. plus you can switch your T-vis with the ECU2.
I wouldn't worry too much about VE upgrades as the Gen3 engine has a slightly higher VE anyway, and you'll be running well into the rich side..plus if you were to go with the ECU2, you'd be able to tune for any VE improvements.

Oteck · 12-22-2009, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by falcon021084

I've been wondering about my American version mr2 has only 105-110 hp

where as Japan and other countries are well above (115-125hp). then i read this

"The use of an air flow meter (MAF) sensor, which restricted air flow slightly but produced cleaner emissions that conformed to the U.S. regulations, limited the power to 112 hp (84 kW) whereas the Japanese model—which used a manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor—produced 130 hp (97 kW)." wtf sup with that? is this really true my maf sensor being this restricted? my friends corolla has a 4age and kicks my ass. we both have the same engine. cept his was imported. can I switch from AFM to MAP? is it possible? if so what do i need?

you should consider the fuel they have in japan, they have above 91 octane

MR2enV · 01-06-2010, 10:53 PM

would this work for 3sge's also.. As in can I run a 3rd gen 3sge ecu on my second gen.

CJMR2T · 01-06-2010, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oteck

you should consider the fuel they have in japan, they have above 91 octane

Its not that much different except for California and a few other states... Japan has 98RON which is equal to what would be 94 here in the states. Many states have 93 available.. 1 point on out system isn't much at all..

Remember, thay are on the RON system where as our rating is an average of MON and RON..

Oh while we are talking about octane, I love it here in my area in florida, I have a local Sunoco station the has 100 octane at the pump (granted its about $8 a gallon but still can go anytime and get it....)

MuMan · 01-07-2010, 01:37 AM

The JDM ECU's are programmed to run 100RON. The US 94 PON, pump octane rating, is about equal to 98RON. In some countries like AU, NZ & UK where only 98RON is available, JDM's are run without many problems at all, so US94 shouldn't pose any real issue. Anyhow, on a healthy engine, with an OEM knock sensor, any low level knock as a result of poor fuel quality, will simply result in the ECU reducing Ign. advance and setting reduced values over the RPM range that the knock is detected. Worst that can happen is reduced performance in varing degrees until the fuel issue is delt with..it's not going to blow your engine.
The JDM ECU's can also be run on E85 with the correct size injector upgrade, pump & fuel rail.

mysync · 01-07-2010, 11:39 AM

do people even still use the PFC im having a hard time selling it locally.
if anyone is interested in a PFC hand commander FCC2 TS lmk im willing to let it go for cheap.

MR2enV · 01-07-2010, 07:07 PM

what part do you stay by CJMR2T.. at the sunoco where the races are held they sell 100, 105, and 110...

CJMR2T · 01-08-2010, 05:59 AM

Up in Lakeland (inbetween tampa and orlando)..

MR2enV · 01-08-2010, 09:42 PM

dam thats up there

MR2enV · 01-08-2010, 09:42 PM

down here in broward.. mins from miami

CJMR2T · 01-08-2010, 10:20 PM

yeah, I know where your at... I've been in Miramar before... I've got some friends that live in Dearfield beach...

11-20-2009, 04:14 AM	#1 (permalink)
falcon021084 No Skills Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 9 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	about converting AFM to MAP I've been wondering about my American version mr2 has only 105-110 hp where as Japan and other countries are well above (115-125hp). then i read this "The use of an air flow meter (MAF) sensor, which restricted air flow slightly but produced cleaner emissions that conformed to the U.S. regulations, limited the power to 112 hp (84 kW) whereas the Japanese model—which used a manifold absolute pressure (MAP) sensor—produced 130 hp (97 kW)." wtf sup with that? is this really true my maf sensor being this restricted? my friends corolla has a 4age and kicks my ass. we both have the same engine. cept his was imported. can I switch from AFM to MAP? is it possible? if so what do i need?

12-22-2009, 08:48 AM	#5 (permalink)
MuMan Nothing is forever.. Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 348 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	It's relative easy to upgrade to the Gen3 JDM MAP based electronics. There's a few good threads about on the subject. I did an upgrade a few years ago using both a Gen3 and blitz access ECU's. Most of the parts needed can be sourced easily & fairly cheaply. Biggest problem would be the OEM Gen3 MAP at a reasonable price..better still, you could put the cost of that towards a MAP ECU2 ($695) and use the internal MAP. Plus you get full Ign/Fuel control of the stock ECU and a host of other functions to boot..dual mapping, fuel cut, speed cut, 8ch Ign, EBC, O2 adj, WB and a lot more.. plus you can switch your T-vis with the ECU2. I wouldn't worry too much about VE upgrades as the Gen3 engine has a slightly higher VE anyway, and you'll be running well into the rich side..plus if you were to go with the ECU2, you'd be able to tune for any VE improvements. Last edited by MuMan; 12-22-2009 at 09:04 AM..

01-07-2010, 01:37 AM	#9 (permalink)
MuMan Nothing is forever.. Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 348 Thanks: 0 Thanked 21 Times in 14 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	The JDM ECU's are programmed to run 100RON. The US 94 PON, pump octane rating, is about equal to 98RON. In some countries like AU, NZ & UK where only 98RON is available, JDM's are run without many problems at all, so US94 shouldn't pose any real issue. Anyhow, on a healthy engine, with an OEM knock sensor, any low level knock as a result of poor fuel quality, will simply result in the ECU reducing Ign. advance and setting reduced values over the RPM range that the knock is detected. Worst that can happen is reduced performance in varing degrees until the fuel issue is delt with..it's not going to blow your engine. The JDM ECU's can also be run on E85 with the correct size injector upgrade, pump & fuel rail. Last edited by MuMan; 01-07-2010 at 02:04 AM..

01-07-2010, 11:39 AM	#10 (permalink)
mysync No Skills Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 10 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	do people even still use the PFC im having a hard time selling it locally. if anyone is interested in a PFC hand commander FCC2 TS lmk im willing to let it go for cheap. Last edited by mysync; 01-07-2010 at 02:39 PM..

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11-20-2009, 08:47 AM	#2 (permalink)
mr2_mk1.5 Cage Fighter Join Date: May 2009 Location: Regina, Saskatchewan Canada Posts: 165 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 9 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	The easiest way to switch from map is to either get a JDM ecm which I think also requires other mods to the wiring harness and clips but I'm not 100% sure. The second way is to go standalone and the third option is search google for a conversion kit, I know I've seen them for VW's which use the same fuel injection but the last conversion kit I seen was $700+

11-20-2009, 09:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
mr3 unskilled Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Plymouth Mtg, Pa Posts: 2,408 Thanks: 24 Thanked 98 Times in 93 Posts iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	Or with the money you will be spending, buy a 4age blacktop and swap that in. More than 130 horse power and it's a map based engine. The silver top uses an afm which can be a pain to find.

11-20-2009, 11:13 AM	#4 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,689 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	As others have said, you will need at least the JDM or what ever ECU is used on the MAP based engines.... some wiring might need to be changed as well but thats easy as long as the plugs are the same. If the plugs are different, then you'll have a bit harder of a time but it can still be done. One thing to note is that although MAP based is less restrictive, there is one major inherant flaw with a MAP based system that is not inherant with MAS type systems. This flaw is the Fueling is less sensitive to VE changes in the engine. By this I mean, If you do things to improve the VE (making the engine flow air better), the ECU will not compensate the fuel thus as you inprove VE, your AFR's get leaner. MAS bases systems actually measure the volume of are entering the engine so if you increase VE, you increase the Volume of air being ingested and the MAS is measuing this to calculate the true mass flow of the engine. on a MAP bases system, the ECU is using the simple Ideal Gas Law to calculate the mas flow but in no way accounts for volumetric flow. Remember, MAP is Manifold Absolute Pressure and you can have a decent change in flow volume and overall mass with no real noticable manifold pressure change. This is why MAP based EMS's are usually in pretty desperate need of "tuning" when you start doing a lot of things to improve VE... At that same token, aftermarket programmable EMS's use MAP based systems due to thier simplisity and robust nature along with the fact that its "tunable"..

01-06-2010, 10:53 PM	#7 (permalink)
MR2enV 21.1 Gigawatts Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Miramar, Florida Posts: 1,068 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/75% )	would this work for 3sge's also.. As in can I run a 3rd gen 3sge ecu on my second gen.

01-07-2010, 07:07 PM	#11 (permalink)
MR2enV 21.1 Gigawatts Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Miramar, Florida Posts: 1,068 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/75% )	what part do you stay by CJMR2T.. at the sunoco where the races are held they sell 100, 105, and 110...

01-08-2010, 05:59 AM	#12 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,689 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Up in Lakeland (inbetween tampa and orlando)..

01-08-2010, 09:42 PM	#13 (permalink)
MR2enV 21.1 Gigawatts Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Miramar, Florida Posts: 1,068 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/75% )	dam thats up there

01-08-2010, 09:42 PM	#14 (permalink)
MR2enV 21.1 Gigawatts Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Miramar, Florida Posts: 1,068 Thanks: 0 Thanked 10 Times in 10 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/75% )	down here in broward.. mins from miami

01-08-2010, 10:20 PM	#15 (permalink)
CJMR2T Fabricator Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Lakeland, FL Posts: 3,689 Thanks: 3 Thanked 356 Times in 337 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	yeah, I know where your at... I've been in Miramar before... I've got some friends that live in Dearfield beach...