Opinions on the "Mega-Squirt" EMS? : Ongoing MegaSquirt Discussion

[Enthalpy]

If you were building a race car, you certainly wouldn't use the AEM EMS in its plug-and-play form. You would use more accurate triggering and a peak/hold box at least.

[MuMan]

Here's what I found with the MS&S. let the flames begin..
If you have some basic or above knowledge and skills, or are willing to learn the basics, MS can do a lot of things for you, at a very attractive cost. If you rely on someone else to do the work, it still is very attractive compared to a commercial EMS.
For track/race applications, you won't get anything more by going commercial, as most of your requirements are at or near WOT anyhow.
As for a streeter or dd, I guess it's a matter of tuning, tuning and more tuning..just like any EMS. My personal view is no EMS is going to give you the reliability, flexibility and plain dependability of an OEM ECU, given the countless hours of R&D that went into it, just by a few hours on the dyno.
And there's tuners..and tuners, just like custom spray painters..you don't know what your going to end up with, till it's done. Is there a diploma in engine tuning?..I'd be asking for one.$$
The best in my book is MoTec, but I'm not about to spend $3K on one. Lets face it, for what you get..a few hundred bucks in parts and hardware, and a lot of user pays R&D, how do you justify it..then there's the tuning $??$$.

A lot of guys really don't need an EMS. Some times the stock ECU with one of the new high quality piggy-backs is a better arrangement.
And sometimes a well setup ROM tune is the go.
But if you want to play the tuning game, MS is as good as any. And who knows, if you get good at it, you can build add-ons that will do everything you could want, because it's flexible. What about a system that opens the door for you, and turns off the headlights LOL.

[Enthalpy]

Jeez, way to dig up such an old thread. J/K.

Actually, the F1 guys rely on something better than Motec. I can't remember what it is offhand, but it's many thousands more than a Motec V3.

As for reliability, OEM ECUs are purpose-built and are, as such, incredible in this department. Slightly lower on the ladder are EMSes like the Nemesis, which I have yet to see fail, yet are not purpose-built, but are mass produced. Slightly lower still are the AEM EMSes, which I have personally seen 4 fail. MUCH LOWER are the Megasquirt for the home-built reasons.

Need is a relative term. Drivability hiccups that come with most piggybacks really piss me off. If you cam or go with really large injectors or outpace the airflow of the AFM, then you should seriously consider going EMS. ROM tunes have issues that EMSes simply don't have.

The flexibility angle has been covered in this very thread. Open sourcing does little good if you are severely hardware-limited.

I proudly show anybody my EFI University authentication. That's the closest to a tuning diploma, save perhaps an engineering degree, which I also have.

No flaming here! Just a lively conversation!

[MuMan]

oldie but a goodie.

[wesnemo]

Is anybody aware of or using a hacked GM ecu? I understand a GM 7730 can be made to work without a lot of strain for turbo or NA. There is software that allows you to adjust the various maps across the rpm range and it can use a distributor or more sophisticated ignition systems.

I suspect that it may be acquired at modest cost from a Upullit JY.

I expect to find out more about this prospect in the coming months. Acquiring more mundane mechanical parts has to be finished first.

[Enthalpy]

Are you talking about LSEdit? It works well for GM setups, but I'm not sure about others. Things like MAP sensor/AFM sensor transfer functions, engine position triggers and non-stock ignitors and tachs would really throw it for a loop.

[Weasy2k]

LSEDIT is a nifty program....to bad toyota didn't allow for much OEM ecu programming ....

[wesnemo]

I actually don't know. I have a friend who builds beastly Chevrolet V-8s. He has suggested the GM and gave me a quick preview. He doesn't do rice but he said he will help me out if I am interested.

I am waiting for the weather to warm up so I can do some Upullit trolling for a setup out of a 4 cyl. Cavalier. He says get everything the ecu, harnesses, clips, all.

[Enthalpy]

"He doesn't do Rice" means he has no clue if it will work.

So he wants you to swap a Cavalier motor into the MR2 chassis? Why on Earth would you bother?

[wesnemo]

Not a Cavalier motor, the GM 7730 ecu to control one. The everything refers to the harnesses, plugs and mounting clips. Raw materials for 5s harness. Have to check compatibility with the sensors.

He does fast V-8s for a living. He doesn't do rice because he prefers domestic.

[MuMan]

There's been a bit of that going on, don't know much about it, but seems the hacked programing is being used in a lot of unusual ways.

[mr2greasemonkey]

I think if you know what you're doing and the systems you are implementing it on the MS is a pretty decent device. It would be nice to have more of the options and capabilities of the more mainstream costlier units. The MS is a very user intense unit cause you have to do a lot of tuning for each application given it's limits. From a retail point of view, I'd have to agree with Enthalpy when comparing EMS'. On the flip side, if you had the knowledge and means to exploit the MS as a base you could very well end up with the better EMS.

I'm not a tuner, but I am a tech and I do a lot of the diagnosis and troubleshooting at the shop I work at. It's pretty amazing to see all the ingenious ways that different companies go about doing the same things. I'm sure there are a lot of people on this thread that know way more than I do about aftermarket EMS', but when I look back at all the different vehicles that i've worked on they're all pretty much set-up to do the same thing. The technology is amazing in the newer cars. But if you take a ride in a new car and then in an old car, they cruise around just the same. The reality is, the only thing most people notice is the what they can feel. You cant feel the difference between bank fire and sequential fire. You dont feel the difference between a points distributor and coil on plug. No matter how sophisticated you EMS is unless you need to utilise it's full capability you'd never notice the difference with one that has less.

Just my opinion, but i'd like to see us discuss this constructively. I'm helping a friend tune a MSI, fuel only, figured we'd see what it could do. It's on a 4age with a turbo. I have an Innovate DL-32 and LC-1 so we can datalog as much info as we can. The project starts and runs just fine. Still lots of tuning to do, we're making lots of progress. So far it's been pretty good.

[Enthalpy]

Good thoughts, MR2greasemonkey. I almost completely agree. The only thing I wouldn't entirely agree with is the "what you can feel" thing. For example, wasted fire coil packs are easier on the wallet when compared with COP. An owner would feel that, just not when on the road. Sequential injection helps out at the pumps, which you certainly do feel. Engine safety things (like dual mapping for water injection) MIGHT be felt if the system has an issue. Knock response would be the same way.

So yes, it depends on what you want to do with the car. Turbo with port nitrous, water injection and E85? Better go with a good EMS. NA 5VZ with a distributor? A MS could probably handle most of what that engine has (save perhaps the evap system, if you wanted to use it). Want to use VVTL-i? That's definitely for the Nemesis, not MS!

[mr2greasemonkey]

Haha, that's kool, wallet, that's still funny. We'll see how my buddies project goes. We're already discussing pros and cons. As well as what kinda mods, hardware/software, we could do. My bro's a hardware engineer so circuitry is no biggie for him to design and build. My cuz is a programmer so I can get him to write software for the MS if needed.

[Weasy2k]

ACIS....needs a couple outputs as well...

[Mekkahfire]

I dont do hick.

[Enthalpy]

Mekka - Not sure what that added to the conversation.

Weasy - MS will probably do ACIS in a crude fashion, nothing 3D like the Nemesis could (unless they improved that since last I touched MS2). It could probably be argued 3D is overkill. Meh. To each his own. I 3D-mapped my TVIS on my 3S-GTE. *does a touchdown dance* Does it produce gains? BSFC was improved, but only a few %. Other than that, the boolean setup is probably just fine.

[Mekkahfire]

It was supposed to add some type of subliminal sentence that apparentely wasnt picked up. lol.

It shouldnt matter if its an import or domestic car. That guy said his friend "doesnt do rice".

A motor's a motor. Every different motor uses such a vast array of technologies and concepts which in the end come together in a beautiful form... The fact that it was developed overseas should never come into play when considering a motor to experiment or tune with.

I just ate a filet of fish from Mcfatburger. Dont get that shit man my stomach is killing me now. /;

[RickyB]

The MS is a fine system for those who have excellent software, electronics and tuning skills and are looking to run a simple setup (no drive-by-wire, no closed loop variable cams and not too many other actuators to control). You don't pay a lot, but the level of time and smarts you have to contribute is very high compared to plug and play systems.

How many folks here want to spend several months of weekends learning enough about the MS software and firmware to implement special features? Even if you already have solid knowledge of high level and assembly languages plus expertise in embedded programming, you have to be pretty motivated to justify the investment time. If you are that educated and capable, you are most likely already raking in enough money to afford a fully featured unit.

Then you have to figure out how to properly wire the system into the car. You will need a scope and other tools to be able to figure out the trigger on the motor just to get started. You will need to spend time and money wiring the unit to the car in a way that doesn't leave the engine harness completely unusable if you should ever need to go back to the stock ECU or move forward to a plug and play system.

What about developing hardware support for any special features you need? Now you need to have decent electrical engineering skills on top of good software skills. Folks like that exist and most of them are quite gainfully employed.

That leaves the field of those who might use the MS succesfully for anything except doing excactly what somebody else has already done rather small. They might do it as a learning adventure knowing full well that the amount of time they will put into it doesn't justify the cost savings on the hardware over an off-the-shelf solution. For these folks, the MS fills an excellent niche.

In the end, always be mindful of this equation:

Properly working EMS setup on your car = Money + Time + Knowlege

You can save money if you have more time and knowledge, but you cannot expect to have a working EMS on your car if you are poor, busy and ignorant. This is not a stab at anyone who has posted on this thread, it is just a basic law that I have run into time and time again installing hundreds of EMS systems of all types into cars of all types.

[MuMan]

(Quote) "you cannot expect to have a working EMS on your car if you are poor, busy and ignorant."

Guess that lets most of us out...