4AGE Motor

88-4age · 05-10-2009, 10:55 PM

i was wondering what all i could take off this motor on a 1988 Toyota Mr2 to give it a little bit more horse power (I have removed the ac unit and belt completely, Cruise Control System, The Big ass air box on the intake) i cant seem to find anything else that i can do without it costing me money to replace. any help would be wonderful please help me!!

mhamrick · 05-13-2009, 04:51 AM

Tell me you have a filter after you removed the big @$$ airbox? As to removing parts to make power that really does not work. Most parts have a purpose and I know the air intake is goofy but the length serves a purpose. It actually helps with bottom end torque. By removing it you hurt this (very minutely) and you may gain a little at the top (very minutely). It is not worth it unless you are putting a new intake on it.

I know hearing that you are making some extra HP sounds great but I am talking maybe a half a hp at the most and that is on a cold day. The only thing I can think that you can remove to get some hp is by taking your cat off and knocking the guts out. I do not suggest this at all but it will work. You can actually gain about 2 hp doing this and maybe more depending on how stopped up it is.

MRMachinist2 · 05-13-2009, 08:53 AM

The cruise control system doesn't rob horsepower. AC system does a bit but only when it's working.

88-4age · 05-13-2009, 03:43 PM

i know cruise control dont but it wasnt working so why have the extra weight....thats only a few ounces...lol
and i have straight pipe on the car im working on getting a new exhaust for it and i put a filter on the hole where the big ass box was

RIOT · 05-15-2009, 07:34 AM

dont even drive it without some kind of air filter on it!!!!

mak259 · 05-15-2009, 04:57 PM

with a car like the mr2 weight is everything...gut the car...drop the a/c...solid motor mounts...good spark plugs...pulsar...royal purple...things like this will help a lot...good plug wires...

mhamrick · 05-17-2009, 04:27 AM

The best plug wires are the stock ones. You will not get anymore power out of $200 set of plug wires then a set of stockers. I have seen numerous Toyota's at the breakers with 200xxx+ and 95% of them had stock wires. Plugs is another fallacy when it comes to making power. The only ones that I would see that has a chance making any real extra hp is the Pulsar spark plugs and they have a capacitor in them that actually amplifies the spark and makes them fire multiple times during the firing sequence (like a MSD, multiple spark distributor). The basic Platinum plug pizazz is a joke, you have to have more coil to actually get a better spark and that has nothing to do with the plug. Clean plugs are a must but not $8 platinum plus 4 or blah blah blah.

Good oil is something you should be running anyway but running Royal Purple is not going to net anything special. To me these are modification you would do once you have spent money on basically everything else and you have extra money to wring the last few hp out of the car. These mods may net you 5hp if you are really lucky and if what you are replacing is that crappy. However if these parts are not up to snuff they can also hurt your power.

RIOT · 05-17-2009, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mak259

with a car like the mr2 weight is everything...gut the car...drop the a/c...solid motor mounts...good spark plugs...pulsar...royal purple...things like this will help a lot...good plug wires...

our cars weigh nothing as is. if you are looking for power your cheapest route will be a new motor. you can find 4AGZE and 4AGE 20v motors all over the internet. the 20v is a beast of a motor

mhamrick · 05-18-2009, 02:30 PM

I don't think the 20v is a beast LOL. Its a good motor but I am intimidated by it breaking and having to wait for speciality parts and then also having to pay for those parts. I agree with the GZE but the majority of those are now 15-20 years old. I do not trust those old SC12's and if yours goes bad replacing it becomes a pain. The last time Toyota had stock replaement ones they were $2,000 and you can build a decent 4AGTE for less than that. I am not putting down the GZE as it is a great motor. I just don't want it to break.

Another option alot of people have not looked over welding in the mounts is the 3S and 5S. After the mounts they become a bolt in affair. If you are going with S-Series tranny from a MKII then you do not have to hunt down expensive axles. Plus the junk yards are sitting full of these motors and are a dime a dozen. A 5SGE (5SFE block and 3SGE head) makes excellent torque and pull hard to 7500. It is the best of both motors and can be had pretty cheap if you look in the right places. You can easily make 200+hp with just bolt ons. The weight will not be to much over the stock set-up (maybe 50lbs). I am seriously rethinking my GTE build.

deucegirl03 · 05-18-2009, 02:48 PM

guys just my two cents but if you are researching info about the 4ag/AW platform you should check out club4ag.com. excellent forum run by a bunch of old school heads with more technical info than you know what to do with...

88-4age · 05-18-2009, 09:44 PM

i'm officialy doing a s series swap damn thing broke a motor mount today so **** it imma swap it

328FTW · 05-19-2009, 11:19 PM

GL it's a big undertaking, there are wiring diagrams for the mkII mr2 3sg(t)e swap but if you get a celica motor I may be able to help you out cause it is what I have in mine out of a st183 (the non turbo 2wd early 90's celica) The mounts for the celica and mr2 are slightly slighty different, they swap over easy but it was only the other day I found this out when I put a celica engine in my mkII and it had a lean on when I put the bolts in

mhamrick · 05-20-2009, 03:27 AM

deucegirl- club4ag is ok if you have an AE. You can hardly get any answers regarding the AW from them BUT what goes for a AE 4AGE will apply to AW 4AGE. If you really want some specific help go to MR2OC.com. They are far more knowledgeable about the AW and the 4AGE's.

Also why not look into a 3rd gen 3SGE and run a S series tranny from a MKII? This will kepp you from having to search for hard to find axles and keep the weight down dramatically. If you are going 3SGTE then this is not an option at all but it is OK for some NA power. You can also swap a 3SGE head on to a 5SFE block and have 5SGE.

Jackstand Queen · 05-20-2009, 11:50 AM

Quote:

I do not trust those old SC12's

SC owners are pretty much S.O.L. the only parts support they have now is 20 year old used stuff. And that stuff is getting more scarce every day. I think AW11 owners are breaking new ground each year. We are finding out what it takes to keep some of the oldest mass produced EFI engines running. By the way, the Earliest EFI's were Mercedes from the 70's. And today +99% are rusting hulks, or recycled.

Quote:

A 5SGE (5SFE block and 3SGE head) makes excellent torque and pull hard to 7500.

This sounds like a plan, 200 HP without all the headaches of forced induction. I wonder which axles hook this up, and if the rear wheel spindles need to be SC, or N.A.? I would think the wiring issues would end up being the most challenging.

328FTW · 05-20-2009, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackstand Queen

This sounds like a plan, 200 HP without all the headaches of forced induction. I wonder which axles hook this up, and if the rear wheel spindles need to be SC, or N.A.? I would think the wiring issues would end up being the most challenging.

The n/a celica axles I used on mine fit straight into my n/a mkI hubs and I just needed to lengthen the rear track width a bit to stop the axles bottoming out in the housing. The wiring took about 20 hours but it was a celica motor (and loom) which had not been documented like the 3sgte swap, another mk1.5 guy I was talking to said 6hours for him and he was a wiring noob using Paul woods guide. Once it runs though the mk1.5 is a little beast

It sh**s over the 4agze I had in it the torque difference and better top end of the 3sge makes it better than the lightly modded 4agze and ultimatly with a turbo setup more potential. Plus the parts are easier to get.

This weekend is its first high speed run if the event doesn't get cancelled

I may get an in car film and post it somewhere if I have time.

Capt.Evergreen · 05-20-2009, 05:40 PM

ya old parts suck so bad... I m thinken of the 9ag... 2.0 liter 4a throw a turbo and ull be slideing for days... its on mr2oc under motor swaps... the 4a is so tiny... would love a 3s but i would want to spend to much money... besides the aw11 was built around the lagendary 4AG... but the power band is tricky to stay in driften... um look at so D1 corollas... most run under 200 hp 4age aginst 400+ 240s.... its funny most cars dont understand the 4ae and cant match lines at all.... I LOVE THESE CARS
deuce deuce
Capt. EverGreen

mhamrick · 05-21-2009, 02:27 AM

Capt. Evergreen- There is a guy on MR2OC.com that built a 9A block and guess what? It is sitting in basement floor gathering dust. Know Why? He said it was truck motor.Sometimes things look great on paper and sound great but once you start throwing it together it does not turn out right. I saw a 9A motor that was sold on craigslist and the posting read: Need to make room in my Garage. Raced for one season. He sold it for less than a third compared to what had in it. He quoted the power at something above 200 and great torque. Now what does not make sense is that he kept 2 silvertops and some other motors that were not worth a crap. Why would someone keep a stock 4A motors when he could use this all so great 9A? The only reason I can come up with is it is not so great. If it were me I would hold my breath til the 9A is proven and someone is making 200hp and driving it daily with 12xxx+ miles on it. For the money the 9A is not worth it as there is a boat load of other motors that make better power for LESS money.

JackStand- If you want to go the 5SGE route then try to find someone doing a 3SGTE swap into a NA MKII. The axles bolt in with no mods on the NA, the S series tranny is 50lbs lighter than the E, and once you get the mounts welded in it becomes a bolt in affair. You can pay someone to fix the harness for $250-$300 and for the slice of comfort knowing it is right I would say it is money well spent. You can do this easily for less than $1500. The patterns for the mounts on online and you can print them off and take them to your local metal cutting facility and have them cut them out for you and weld them if you do not feel up to it. Toyota sold the 3SGE here in a the late 80's GTS Celicas and you can find these in most junkyards for a little to nothing. Grab the head, intake, wiring, ECU, and some other parts and you will be ready to go. With minor bolt-ons you will hit 200 honest hp with linear power curve. The weight difference between the MKI 4AGZE and a 5SGE is about the same. Maybe 20lb difference. I have seriously rethought my turbo plans and considered building me a 5SGE with a 50 shot of nitrous for the strip.

328FTW · 05-21-2009, 03:48 AM

^ Good advice, I would try and go with a gen 2 or better 3sge. They made a bit of a jump in terms of power and removed the tvis in place of a better system. My 3sge swap was a real cheap affair. $500 for a beaten 90's celica with a good box and heavy duty clutch. It had about $300 in wheels and tyres on it so about $200 shall we say for the swap materials. That plus a good amount of time and patience and it was cheaper than fixing my 4agze. Wiring wasn't too bad, it was just the fact I was kinda on my own with it and had to figure it out myself and in the end it has worked out good. It even plug n plays like a stock loom would.

But there are limitless options with this car really, I want a v6 now that would be awesome!!

mhamrick · 05-22-2009, 12:55 AM

I like the 3rd Gen 3SGE. They are affordable and make 180hp and 140 (or 50?) lb ft of torque from the factory. You can easily break 200 on simple bolt ons. Hell you can do it with a Tune.

Jackstand- The thing about this swap you will love the best is you can put a Supercharger on it. I seen one years ago that was making 300hp from a SCed 3SGE. Imagine all that raw bone sea horsey power in a sub 2400lb car and the gobs and gobs of torque! I like 328FTW's idea of the V6 for an interesting street car. You could drive it everywhere in 5th and never shift. For a dual purpose I would have to stick with the 3SGE though. It would be SEX to swap in a 3SGE with some ITB's and cams. SEX I say.

328FTW · 05-22-2009, 05:28 AM

(JDM) Gen 1 3sge = 150ish hp
Gen 2 3sge = 160ish hp
Gen 3 3sge = 180ish hp
Gen 4 3sge BEAMS = 200ish hp

Apart from the gen 1 torque is about the same throughout

My gen 2 has had a light port and free flow exhaust along with a few other small tweaks, nothing big and it would probably be around the 180hp mark I would say. I want to put a turbo on it but am having trouble finding the time to do it. As it stands it is still a good motor. I recommend it due to it being a cheap swap better still if you can get a 3sgte, not as easy as a 4agze or 20V swap but my mk1.5 would take a dump on any of my other cars any day including my rx7.

05-10-2009, 10:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
88-4age No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 39 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	4AGE Motor i was wondering what all i could take off this motor on a 1988 Toyota Mr2 to give it a little bit more horse power (I have removed the ac unit and belt completely, Cruise Control System, The Big ass air box on the intake) i cant seem to find anything else that i can do without it costing me money to replace. any help would be wonderful please help me!!

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05-13-2009, 04:51 AM	#2 (permalink)
mhamrick Some Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Tell me you have a filter after you removed the big @$$ airbox? As to removing parts to make power that really does not work. Most parts have a purpose and I know the air intake is goofy but the length serves a purpose. It actually helps with bottom end torque. By removing it you hurt this (very minutely) and you may gain a little at the top (very minutely). It is not worth it unless you are putting a new intake on it. I know hearing that you are making some extra HP sounds great but I am talking maybe a half a hp at the most and that is on a cold day. The only thing I can think that you can remove to get some hp is by taking your cat off and knocking the guts out. I do not suggest this at all but it will work. You can actually gain about 2 hp doing this and maybe more depending on how stopped up it is.

05-13-2009, 08:53 AM	#3 (permalink)
MRMachinist2 supercharged Join Date: May 2009 Location: BC, Canada Posts: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	The cruise control system doesn't rob horsepower. AC system does a bit but only when it's working.

05-13-2009, 03:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
88-4age No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 39 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	i know cruise control dont but it wasnt working so why have the extra weight....thats only a few ounces...lol and i have straight pipe on the car im working on getting a new exhaust for it and i put a filter on the hole where the big ass box was

05-15-2009, 07:34 AM	#5 (permalink)
RIOT Apex King Join Date: May 2009 Location: Vernon CT Posts: 44 Thanks: 0 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	dont even drive it without some kind of air filter on it!!!!

05-15-2009, 04:57 PM	#6 (permalink)
mak259 No Skills Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 7 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	with a car like the mr2 weight is everything...gut the car...drop the a/c...solid motor mounts...good spark plugs...pulsar...royal purple...things like this will help a lot...good plug wires...

05-17-2009, 04:27 AM	#7 (permalink)
mhamrick Some Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	The best plug wires are the stock ones. You will not get anymore power out of $200 set of plug wires then a set of stockers. I have seen numerous Toyota's at the breakers with 200xxx+ and 95% of them had stock wires. Plugs is another fallacy when it comes to making power. The only ones that I would see that has a chance making any real extra hp is the Pulsar spark plugs and they have a capacitor in them that actually amplifies the spark and makes them fire multiple times during the firing sequence (like a MSD, multiple spark distributor). The basic Platinum plug pizazz is a joke, you have to have more coil to actually get a better spark and that has nothing to do with the plug. Clean plugs are a must but not $8 platinum plus 4 or blah blah blah. Good oil is something you should be running anyway but running Royal Purple is not going to net anything special. To me these are modification you would do once you have spent money on basically everything else and you have extra money to wring the last few hp out of the car. These mods may net you 5hp if you are really lucky and if what you are replacing is that crappy. However if these parts are not up to snuff they can also hurt your power.

05-18-2009, 02:30 PM	#9 (permalink)
mhamrick Some Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I don't think the 20v is a beast LOL. Its a good motor but I am intimidated by it breaking and having to wait for speciality parts and then also having to pay for those parts. I agree with the GZE but the majority of those are now 15-20 years old. I do not trust those old SC12's and if yours goes bad replacing it becomes a pain. The last time Toyota had stock replaement ones they were $2,000 and you can build a decent 4AGTE for less than that. I am not putting down the GZE as it is a great motor. I just don't want it to break. Another option alot of people have not looked over welding in the mounts is the 3S and 5S. After the mounts they become a bolt in affair. If you are going with S-Series tranny from a MKII then you do not have to hunt down expensive axles. Plus the junk yards are sitting full of these motors and are a dime a dozen. A 5SGE (5SFE block and 3SGE head) makes excellent torque and pull hard to 7500. It is the best of both motors and can be had pretty cheap if you look in the right places. You can easily make 200+hp with just bolt ons. The weight will not be to much over the stock set-up (maybe 50lbs). I am seriously rethinking my GTE build.

05-18-2009, 02:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
deucegirl03 Gearhead son! Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Canyon Country, CA Posts: 676 Thanks: 32 Thanked 15 Times in 14 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	guys just my two cents but if you are researching info about the 4ag/AW platform you should check out club4ag.com. excellent forum run by a bunch of old school heads with more technical info than you know what to do with...

05-18-2009, 09:44 PM	#11 (permalink)
88-4age No Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 39 Thanks: 1 Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	i'm officialy doing a s series swap damn thing broke a motor mount today so **** it imma swap it

05-19-2009, 11:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
328FTW Can you say grippy? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,513 Thanks: 12 Thanked 99 Times in 83 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	GL it's a big undertaking, there are wiring diagrams for the mkII mr2 3sg(t)e swap but if you get a celica motor I may be able to help you out cause it is what I have in mine out of a st183 (the non turbo 2wd early 90's celica) The mounts for the celica and mr2 are slightly slighty different, they swap over easy but it was only the other day I found this out when I put a celica engine in my mkII and it had a lean on when I put the bolts in

05-20-2009, 03:27 AM	#13 (permalink)
mhamrick Some Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	deucegirl- club4ag is ok if you have an AE. You can hardly get any answers regarding the AW from them BUT what goes for a AE 4AGE will apply to AW 4AGE. If you really want some specific help go to MR2OC.com. They are far more knowledgeable about the AW and the 4AGE's. Also why not look into a 3rd gen 3SGE and run a S series tranny from a MKII? This will kepp you from having to search for hard to find axles and keep the weight down dramatically. If you are going 3SGTE then this is not an option at all but it is OK for some NA power. You can also swap a 3SGE head on to a 5SFE block and have 5SGE.

05-20-2009, 05:40 PM	#16 (permalink)
Capt.Evergreen Cage Fighter Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 102 Thanks: 2 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	ya old parts suck so bad... I m thinken of the 9ag... 2.0 liter 4a throw a turbo and ull be slideing for days... its on mr2oc under motor swaps... the 4a is so tiny... would love a 3s but i would want to spend to much money... besides the aw11 was built around the lagendary 4AG... but the power band is tricky to stay in driften... um look at so D1 corollas... most run under 200 hp 4age aginst 400+ 240s.... its funny most cars dont understand the 4ae and cant match lines at all.... I LOVE THESE CARS deuce deuce Capt. EverGreen

05-21-2009, 02:27 AM	#17 (permalink)
mhamrick Some Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Capt. Evergreen- There is a guy on MR2OC.com that built a 9A block and guess what? It is sitting in basement floor gathering dust. Know Why? He said it was truck motor.Sometimes things look great on paper and sound great but once you start throwing it together it does not turn out right. I saw a 9A motor that was sold on craigslist and the posting read: Need to make room in my Garage. Raced for one season. He sold it for less than a third compared to what had in it. He quoted the power at something above 200 and great torque. Now what does not make sense is that he kept 2 silvertops and some other motors that were not worth a crap. Why would someone keep a stock 4A motors when he could use this all so great 9A? The only reason I can come up with is it is not so great. If it were me I would hold my breath til the 9A is proven and someone is making 200hp and driving it daily with 12xxx+ miles on it. For the money the 9A is not worth it as there is a boat load of other motors that make better power for LESS money. JackStand- If you want to go the 5SGE route then try to find someone doing a 3SGTE swap into a NA MKII. The axles bolt in with no mods on the NA, the S series tranny is 50lbs lighter than the E, and once you get the mounts welded in it becomes a bolt in affair. You can pay someone to fix the harness for $250-$300 and for the slice of comfort knowing it is right I would say it is money well spent. You can do this easily for less than $1500. The patterns for the mounts on online and you can print them off and take them to your local metal cutting facility and have them cut them out for you and weld them if you do not feel up to it. Toyota sold the 3SGE here in a the late 80's GTS Celicas and you can find these in most junkyards for a little to nothing. Grab the head, intake, wiring, ECU, and some other parts and you will be ready to go. With minor bolt-ons you will hit 200 honest hp with linear power curve. The weight difference between the MKI 4AGZE and a 5SGE is about the same. Maybe 20lb difference. I have seriously rethought my turbo plans and considered building me a 5SGE with a 50 shot of nitrous for the strip.

05-21-2009, 03:48 AM	#18 (permalink)
328FTW Can you say grippy? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,513 Thanks: 12 Thanked 99 Times in 83 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	^ Good advice, I would try and go with a gen 2 or better 3sge. They made a bit of a jump in terms of power and removed the tvis in place of a better system. My 3sge swap was a real cheap affair. $500 for a beaten 90's celica with a good box and heavy duty clutch. It had about $300 in wheels and tyres on it so about $200 shall we say for the swap materials. That plus a good amount of time and patience and it was cheaper than fixing my 4agze. Wiring wasn't too bad, it was just the fact I was kinda on my own with it and had to figure it out myself and in the end it has worked out good. It even plug n plays like a stock loom would. But there are limitless options with this car really, I want a v6 now that would be awesome!!

05-22-2009, 12:55 AM	#19 (permalink)
mhamrick Some Skills Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 51 Thanks: 1 Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I like the 3rd Gen 3SGE. They are affordable and make 180hp and 140 (or 50?) lb ft of torque from the factory. You can easily break 200 on simple bolt ons. Hell you can do it with a Tune. Jackstand- The thing about this swap you will love the best is you can put a Supercharger on it. I seen one years ago that was making 300hp from a SCed 3SGE. Imagine all that raw bone sea horsey power in a sub 2400lb car and the gobs and gobs of torque! I like 328FTW's idea of the V6 for an interesting street car. You could drive it everywhere in 5th and never shift. For a dual purpose I would have to stick with the 3SGE though. It would be SEX to swap in a 3SGE with some ITB's and cams. SEX I say.

05-22-2009, 05:28 AM	#20 (permalink)
328FTW Can you say grippy? Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: New Zealand Posts: 1,513 Thanks: 12 Thanked 99 Times in 83 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	(JDM) Gen 1 3sge = 150ish hp Gen 2 3sge = 160ish hp Gen 3 3sge = 180ish hp Gen 4 3sge BEAMS = 200ish hp Apart from the gen 1 torque is about the same throughout My gen 2 has had a light port and free flow exhaust along with a few other small tweaks, nothing big and it would probably be around the 180hp mark I would say. I want to put a turbo on it but am having trouble finding the time to do it. As it stands it is still a good motor. I recommend it due to it being a cheap swap better still if you can get a 3sgte, not as easy as a 4agze or 20V swap but my mk1.5 would take a dump on any of my other cars any day including my rx7.