Factory headers with collector for 5SFE

[TomsMR2]

mines in the mail right now.. ill keep you guys updated

[runabout93]

Originally Posted by TomsMR2

mines in the mail right now.. ill keep you guys updated

Sweeeeeet dude! Can't wait... I think i'm going to buy some of those long headers from MR2liter for now. If they fall apart I'll have these to fall back on. LOL Well, hopefully they dont fall apart though. I need to get that NATKO exhaust too. Damn that thing makes me drool.

What are you running for a header right now?

[TomsMR2]

im back to stock now. i had an ssac header that was terrible, and a pacesetter which wasnt too bad, but didnt fit until i hacked it up, and didnt make much power (bad design).

a header and a tko will be LOUD. another problem with the chinese made headers is the damn huge 1.75 primaries.. those really just make a ton of noise.

[runabout93]

Originally Posted by TomsMR2

im back to stock now. i had an ssac header that was terrible, and a pacesetter which wasnt too bad, but didnt fit until i hacked it up, and didnt make much power (bad design).

a header and a tko will be LOUD. another problem with the chinese made headers is the damn huge 1.75 primaries.. those really just make a ton of noise.

Really... They are that loud? And you are saying 1.75 is huge for primaries.. I thought that is what is needed to get some extra hp? Or is it really the B-Pipe where all the gains can be made? Would hacking the stock header to fit a 2.5" b-pipe and exhaust be the key? I think I could live with the noise of the TKO. The appearance and sound is exactly what I want. However, if Berk made an exhaust for the NA I would get that instead. Because the Berk exhaust is oval, it doesnt look like it's gonna hit the ground so much. But, having something right in back of your head droaning could be annoying.

Anyway, how about jet-hot coating the header and/or wrapping it.... do you think that would quiet it down? Jet coating and wrapping insulates heat, you would think it would help a little on sound. What's your opinion on that stuff? Eitherway, I was thinking about sending it out to be coated because of the heat issue without a shield. Unless that stuff isn't as advertised.

I appreciate your input. Thanks!

[TomsMR2]

ive wrapped my whole exhaust, and it it does help. with the 2.5 inch bpipe and stock manifold, i dont have all the top end i had with the ssac, but its close.. it has more power than stock, and the low end is smoother and stronger than the whole ssac piece.

i dont like coating because wrapping works so much better and is cheaper. it doesnt look as nice though. you can go for a long drive with a wrapped header, stop the car and immediately go grab your primaries with your bare hand.. it'll be hot as hell, but it wont burn you. you'll sear your skin off with a coated part.

[runabout93]

Tom thanks again... Few more questions and I'll leave this alone for now.

Do you have any pics of your setup with the stock mani and b-pipe? Or know of any others. Maybe I'll just go stock to 2.5 route, wrap it up... call it day, and be happy with it.

What is the real advantage of this newer mani over the original? If mine is not too beat'n up, should I just stick with it or go with this new one now to be safe? I wanted to pull the heat shield off last night to take a look but thought I would be in-trouble if I started turning those nuts.

My main thing is... I dont want to spend alot of money and dont care all that much about hp gains. I dont think there is a ton of hp to be made anyway. Really, I'm looking for a little more growl and looks... plus, reliablility. I want to get the exhaust setup so I'm happy with it. And then I do not want to change it or fix it until I have to replace, rebuild, or swap the engine.

[runabout93]

damn... I didnt know this was a sticky. Sorry.

[TomsMR2]

your questions are valid and on topic feel free to post in the sticky, someone else might have the same question too.

the stock manifold is cast iron and weighs a million pounds. the camry manifold is thin steel with real runners, a real collector, and no catalytic converter. if you look at the lower flange on the stock mr2 manifold, the stupid flange is offset from the header, effectively blocking off about half of the flange, which is already too small as-is. the camry one looks like it doesnt do that. you're saving a bunch of weight and getting a better design.. i paid 75 shipped for mine, people have paid 10 times that for other parts for the weight savings alone.

[TomsMR2]

its here.

if you're looking for a replacement for real headers. this is NOT it. these are basically just like the factory mr2 headers, except steel and the exit point is smoother. these are not going to give the easy 10whp everyones getting from full headers.

i have a welder, and a bunch of extra flanges, and o2 bungs, and random mandrel bends.. i can make this thing work. it has a < 2.0 inch bpipe.. i can hack this thing off right at the collector and fit a 2.5 mandrel pipe in there under the heat shields, and couple that to my existing 2.5 inch bpipe.. at that point i think it'll perform right up to par with the ssac headers and ill be happy. . and look totally california legal. as a drop-in solution though, its not going to cut the mustard for anything else besides weight savings.

all in all, its better than stock, great option if you dont mind hacking it up, but not a direct replacement for a header.

[TomsMR2]

i guess i was a little unclear.

i *think* this will bolt on without any problems, to the factory bpipe. it sure looks like it will, but i havent test fitted it yet (and wont).

it uses a threaded o2 sensor. we use a flanged one, whatever you do, you'll need to have a flange welded on for your o2 sensor.

i measured today and the outlet is 1.75 inches. that sucks. also it dents in pretty good right above the outlet where the o2 sensor bung is welded on.. id guess its shrinking down to about 1.5-1.6 inches. the collector is going to kill most gains, so its in my vice right now and im going to cut it off tomorrow morning. it would be a waste of time to try to install it as-is. if you just want a cheap easy weight savings, sure go for it. if you want to make power, plan on cutting it off after the merge and welding a 2.5 inch pipe on it.

its not an equal length design, but it looks like 1 and 2 are equal, and 3 and 4 are equal, but 3/4 is a good amount longer. im guessing its one pulse off so technically when it hits the collector they're timed fairly properly, but im guessing. i dont have much of a problem with that section, its a decent enough design.

all in all, its not as cool as it sounds i think it can be great when modified, but its not the gravy solution i think a lot of us thought it would be.

[Jason.MZW20]

^ Unfortunate, but it was designed for a Camry. Low-end response is critical in a heavy mid-sized sedan powered by an anemic 4 cylinder. The improvement over our manifold is there though. The stock manifold on any 90-95 MR2/90-99 Celica 5SFE is terrible for flow and is heavy as hell. Not the greatest out there, but at least its smog legal in CA. Toyota did all the R&D and certification for us to ensure that. You won't have to swap manifolds come smog time. That's the only advantage other than weight that I can think of.

The official ratings for the 5SFE with this manifold are:
2000-2001
136hp* @ 5200rpm (+6 hp over the 91-92s, +1 hp over the 93+)
150lb-ft @ 4400rpm (+10 lb-ft over the 91-92s, +8 lb-ft over the 93+)

1997-1999
133hp*
147lb-ft

* Keep in mind Camrys have almost always had balance shafts to reduce NVH. Terrible for power.

I shouldn't attribute the gain in power only on the change in header design. The 2000+ 5SFEs use a full sequential injection scheme (completely dependent on crank angle) that effectively makes the 5SFE a LOT more efficient. Off-idle response is improved by a noticable amount since fuel doesn't pool in the piston cavity and also won't cool the combustion chamber temperature nearly as much. This is also why some newer 5SFEs sludge up. It runs a lot leaner than previous 5SFEs, so it runs a good deal hotter too.

[TomsMR2]

100% does not bolt up.

the o2 sensor flange is threaded, needs a normal flange welded on. the b-pipe exits about 3 inches too close to the bracket, which means the HEADER has to be cut and rewelded to mate to the bpipe, for clearance.

i hacked mine up and welded in a new section of pipe, but i know thats more than people are willing to do. ill be done here in about an hour. fab wise, it wasnt too hard, but again that damn bpipe is 1.5 inches and its a waste of time to replace the manifold without replacing the bpipe.

i guess all in all, dont waste your time unless you're in california and just dying for a header. if you're going to cut/weld, use a gen2 3sge header.

[runabout93]

hmmmm... bummer man! Thanks for the final update and treking in unknown territory so the rest of us don't suffer so much. I'm curious if there will be any change in the seat of your pants though???

[TomsMR2]

hmm.. i like it, its faster

feels better than the ssac header.. doesnt have the "whered my low end torque go?" feel like ssac, same top end. waaay less noise. keep in mind i do have that bigger b-pipe though. id definitely say it was worth my time, but keep in mind everything needed to be done.

[runabout93]

I wish I had the skills to take this one on. It would probably cost way too much to pay a shop do this.... So now if someone could make a comparable set to sell... I would be golden. I've seen a few ss headers on ebay that were for the later gen 5sfe's (94-99) But, you can see some of the same modifications are needed after the collector and flanges. But, the o2 flange looks right (best part). But, it looks like it is tucking in... so maybe that entire section after the collector needs to be cut out and rewelded (u would have to do something anyway to get it coupled to the b-pipe). Anyway, here's a link and some pictures of what i'm talking about.

eBay Motors: Toyota Celica 2.2L GT 94-99 5SFE Exhaust Header New (item 270171223008 end time Oct-01-07 20:55:36 PDT)

What do you think Tom? Would this be easier to modify? Or still better off with something else.

5sfe - header - celica gt - 94-99-2.jpg

5sfe - header - celica gt - 94-99.jpg

[TomsMR2]

i will never run a chinese header ever again. they're just made so wrong, so noisy, so leaky, so rusty.

i had to remove the gen2 3sge header.. if you're interested in that, you can pm me or something. it would need to be welded on and have the flex pipe replaced.

[Jason.MZW20]

So Tom, do you feel the shorter individual pipe lengths and shorter overall length on the Camry header are better for the 5SFE? I know the 3SGE headers use quite long tubes down to the collector. Since the heads are dramatically different between the 3SGE and 5SFE, I'd just like to know your thoughts.

Originally Posted by TomsMR2

feels better than the ssac header.. doesnt have the "whered my low end torque go?"

This strikes me as particularly interesting. It sounds like the 3SGE headers (or aftermarket 5S headers) flow too much for the 5S head and the loss in power is coming from a loss in exhaust gas velocity from the bigger exhaust pipes and header length all around. What do you think?