Engine turns then jams

reights · 11-06-2007, 11:07 PM

I have a 91 mr2 NA. Car ran fine then was parked. return to start the car and sounded like a connecting rod bearing. I dropped the pan all bearings ok. However when i spin the engine it spins and then stops. Sounds like something internally hitting and causing the engine not to spin freely. any possible cause as to such??

Weasy2k · 11-06-2007, 11:46 PM

Hows the headgasket? I have had an occasion that something similar had happened and the coolant filled a cyl up to a point where when you try to compress the piston it would hit the water and be unable to release it through the exhaust valves at all just because of where its sitting on its stroke and how much water there is in there....

This has only happened ONCE so i dont know if thats the case for you. Are you in Neutral when trying to start?

reights · 11-07-2007, 09:32 AM

The plugs are removed (i guess if any water is in the cylinder it would blow out) and I'm turning the engine using a socket on the damper. You can actually hear a knocking noise once the engine turns pass a certain distance. I turned the engine to a position where its free and tapped on the valves all seems to be ok. then i turned the engine to where it locks up and the tapped the valves same result all are moving freely. it doesn't seem to be anything internally in the engine. but still can't come to a concrete reason for the problem. any ideas??

mrturrari · 11-08-2007, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reights

I have a 91 mr2 NA. Car ran fine then was parked. return to start the car and sounded like a connecting rod bearing. I dropped the pan all bearings ok. However when i spin the engine it spins and then stops. Sounds like something internally hitting and causing the engine not to spin freely. any possible cause as to such??

Did the car actually run when you tried to start it but had what sounded like rod knock or did it seize?

Some things to try:

I'm assuming it is seized from what you have said. Stupid stuff first... is the car in neutral?

Does it change when someone is depressing the clutch?

Where are the pistons when it stops? If two of them are close to the top then you might have something in one of those two cylinders. Were any pieces missing from your spark plugs when you pulled them? If the pistons stop part way up then it could be one of the rod bearings. When one spins it will often seize the engine only at a certain crank angle. You can also check to see if it stops when a particular valve is trying to open. Also check to see if it always stops in the exact same place. And don't worry about turning a 5sfe backwards, our tensioner pulley is torqued down once you have set the tension so it won't allow the timing belt to slip.

reights · 11-08-2007, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrturrari

Did the car actually run when you tried to start it but had what sounded like rod knock or did it seize?

Some things to try:

I'm assuming it is seized from what you have said. Stupid stuff first... is the car in neutral?

Does it change when someone is depressing the clutch?

Where are the pistons when it stops? If two of them are close to the top then you might have something in one of those two cylinders. Were any pieces missing from your spark plugs when you pulled them? If the pistons stop part way up then it could be one of the rod bearings. When one spins it will often seize the engine only at a certain crank angle. You can also check to see if it stops when a particular valve is trying to open. Also check to see if it always stops in the exact same place. And don't worry about turning a 5sfe backwards, our tensioner pulley is torqued down once you have set the tension so it won't allow the timing belt to slip.

The engine only turns about 180degrees and stops(between 0-180 does not turn completely around). I turned the engine in both directions. The car is in neutral. I also put it in gear with clutched depressed gearbox is turning alright. My next step is to remove the timing belt cover to see if any thing is loose.

mrturrari · 11-08-2007, 10:59 PM

Try turning your crank so you can reach the bottoms of the rods then try to move the rods up and down and front to back on the crank. There should be absolutely no detectable movement. You can use a pry bar against the block to get a little more pressure on the rods if they are hard to reach. At this point I can't think of anything else that would cause what you are describing except a rod bearing that spun. Well maybe a broken flywheel or crank but that would be really hard to do when the car is in storage. Anyone else have any ideas?

Weasy2k · 11-08-2007, 11:49 PM

hrmm with the spark plugs removed stick a long bar into each cyl spark plug hole till it touches the piston now turn the crank and verify its actually going up and down. Im wondering if a bearing cap is off or falling off. Or just remove the oil pan like others have said and see how things look in there.

reights · 11-10-2007, 12:38 PM

Removal of the oil pan was my first step. The rod bearings are all good. There is no debris in the oil pan also. The pistons are moving up and down. There is nothing in the bell housing either. Already removed the gearbox.

mrturrari · 11-10-2007, 11:27 PM

I guess the next step is to check the top half of things. With the valve cover off, try to see if anything is getting in the way of the cams turning. Something I have seen before is that people will leave the 10mm bolt in the exhaust cam gear. It is only supposed to hold the scissor gears in place until the cam is in but you can't turn the engine all the way around unless it is removed. If you still can't find anything then try taking the timing belt cover off and look there. You are fast running out of places to look. Maybe another pair of eyes would be a good idea at this point.

Ncturnal · 11-11-2007, 01:01 AM

For something this extreme you may as well remove the motor. Even if you do get it to spin there is no way you could trust it enough to drive it and it could cause even more damage than is already present.

Weasy2k · 11-11-2007, 02:07 AM

at this point i have to agree with brian....something is terribly wrong...or just simple stupid (see mrturrari's post above), but with motor out can see everything

reights · 11-11-2007, 09:21 PM

The problem started after the car was parked for two weeks. The car ran perfect before then.

The engine is not seized. The engine turns a max of 180 degrees and then jams. You can actually here it hitting on something but what is the big question.

Steps taken so far:
Removal of oil pan.
Removal of timing belt cover.
Removal of timing belt.
Removal of gear box.
Loosen connecting rod bearings and try turning engine.
Removal of main bearing one at a time and tried turning engine.

Next step removal of head to see what's in the cylinders. I don't think of any other place to look.

mrturrari · 11-12-2007, 01:40 AM

Yeah, sounds like you've looked everywhere else. Let us know what you find.

Weasy2k · 11-12-2007, 04:15 AM

yea at least just check the cams and you can also shine a flashlight down the splrk plug hole to see whats up

reights · 11-12-2007, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weasy2k

yea at least just check the cams and you can also shine a flashlight down the splrk plug hole to see whats up

Forgot to mention I also sticked a magnet down the spark plug hold and nothing was detected. Did shine a flash light down the spark plug hole also and the top of the piston's appears not to be damaged.

fosley · 11-13-2007, 02:56 PM

What you are describing sounds like when Toyota shipped me the wrong bearing to me. One of my bearings is a different size, and the slight thickness difference (< .008 in) seized the motor so hard that I broke the crank bolt trying to turn it. If the car sat around forever and the oil drained out, then the bearing spun ever-so-slightly on startup, it could have done this.

If so, you might be able to get away with just replacing all the bearings, but I've only done it once.

Edit: The crank would spin about 180° like you are describing, but then I tried to turn it all the way around and broke the crank bolt.

mr220v · 11-13-2007, 03:09 PM

Unlikely, but easy to check, how about the starter?

fosley · 11-13-2007, 03:15 PM

The starter won't affect it turning by hand. Even if it were stuck in the "out" position, the one-way clutch/ratchet/whatever-they-use device would let the motor spin one way and not the other, or it would spin both directions fine because that device is broke, or it would spin neither direction because that device is broke. Given the starter/flywheel ratio, even if the starter were stuck so it would only spin so far, it would lock the engine well before 180° (more like 5°).

11-06-2007, 11:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
reights No Skills Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 17 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Engine turns then jams I have a 91 mr2 NA. Car ran fine then was parked. return to start the car and sounded like a connecting rod bearing. I dropped the pan all bearings ok. However when i spin the engine it spins and then stops. Sounds like something internally hitting and causing the engine not to spin freely. any possible cause as to such??

11-06-2007, 11:46 PM	#2 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,949 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	Hows the headgasket? I have had an occasion that something similar had happened and the coolant filled a cyl up to a point where when you try to compress the piston it would hit the water and be unable to release it through the exhaust valves at all just because of where its sitting on its stroke and how much water there is in there.... This has only happened ONCE so i dont know if thats the case for you. Are you in Neutral when trying to start? __________________ -Johnny @ Sea2Sky Tuning - www.sea2skytuning.com Im back...just trying to catchup on 2months worth of backlog!!

11-07-2007, 09:32 AM	#3 (permalink)
reights No Skills Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 17 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	The plugs are removed (i guess if any water is in the cylinder it would blow out) and I'm turning the engine using a socket on the damper. You can actually hear a knocking noise once the engine turns pass a certain distance. I turned the engine to a position where its free and tapped on the valves all seems to be ok. then i turned the engine to where it locks up and the tapped the valves same result all are moving freely. it doesn't seem to be anything internally in the engine. but still can't come to a concrete reason for the problem. any ideas?? Last edited by reights; 11-07-2007 at 09:38 AM.

11-11-2007, 01:01 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ncturnal Google Ron Paul Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 6,842 Thanks: 91 Thanked 115 Times in 100 Posts Blog Entries: 6 My Google Map iTrader Rating: (33/100% )	For something this extreme you may as well remove the motor. Even if you do get it to spin there is no way you could trust it enough to drive it and it could cause even more damage than is already present. __________________ Brian - My MR2Trader Ads - Click here for order or shipping status if you've bought something from me recently. Technical Questions - Please post them on the forums. Others who may have the same problem don't benefit from a PM exchange. If you wish to have my input I have no problem with a PM containing a link to a thread you have already posted.

11-08-2007, 10:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Try turning your crank so you can reach the bottoms of the rods then try to move the rods up and down and front to back on the crank. There should be absolutely no detectable movement. You can use a pry bar against the block to get a little more pressure on the rods if they are hard to reach. At this point I can't think of anything else that would cause what you are describing except a rod bearing that spun. Well maybe a broken flywheel or crank but that would be really hard to do when the car is in storage. Anyone else have any ideas?

11-08-2007, 11:49 PM	#7 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,949 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	hrmm with the spark plugs removed stick a long bar into each cyl spark plug hole till it touches the piston now turn the crank and verify its actually going up and down. Im wondering if a bearing cap is off or falling off. Or just remove the oil pan like others have said and see how things look in there.

11-10-2007, 12:38 PM	#8 (permalink)
reights No Skills Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 17 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	Removal of the oil pan was my first step. The rod bearings are all good. There is no debris in the oil pan also. The pistons are moving up and down. There is nothing in the bell housing either. Already removed the gearbox.

11-10-2007, 11:27 PM	#9 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	I guess the next step is to check the top half of things. With the valve cover off, try to see if anything is getting in the way of the cams turning. Something I have seen before is that people will leave the 10mm bolt in the exhaust cam gear. It is only supposed to hold the scissor gears in place until the cam is in but you can't turn the engine all the way around unless it is removed. If you still can't find anything then try taking the timing belt cover off and look there. You are fast running out of places to look. Maybe another pair of eyes would be a good idea at this point.

11-11-2007, 02:07 AM	#11 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,949 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	at this point i have to agree with brian....something is terribly wrong...or just simple stupid (see mrturrari's post above), but with motor out can see everything

11-11-2007, 09:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
reights No Skills Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Daytona Beach, FL Posts: 17 Thanks: 4 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	The problem started after the car was parked for two weeks. The car ran perfect before then. The engine is not seized. The engine turns a max of 180 degrees and then jams. You can actually here it hitting on something but what is the big question. Steps taken so far: Removal of oil pan. Removal of timing belt cover. Removal of timing belt. Removal of gear box. Loosen connecting rod bearings and try turning engine. Removal of main bearing one at a time and tried turning engine. Next step removal of head to see what's in the cylinders. I don't think of any other place to look.

11-12-2007, 01:40 AM	#13 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Yeah, sounds like you've looked everywhere else. Let us know what you find.

11-12-2007, 04:15 AM	#14 (permalink)
Weasy2k 3.4L 10K RPM In the works Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 8,949 Thanks: 34 Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	yea at least just check the cams and you can also shine a flashlight down the splrk plug hole to see whats up

11-13-2007, 02:56 PM	#16 (permalink)
fosley Some Skills Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 91 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	What you are describing sounds like when Toyota shipped me the wrong bearing to me. One of my bearings is a different size, and the slight thickness difference (< .008 in) seized the motor so hard that I broke the crank bolt trying to turn it. If the car sat around forever and the oil drained out, then the bearing spun ever-so-slightly on startup, it could have done this. If so, you might be able to get away with just replacing all the bearings, but I've only done it once. Edit: The crank would spin about 180° like you are describing, but then I tried to turn it all the way around and broke the crank bolt.

11-13-2007, 03:09 PM	#17 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,255 Thanks: 13 Thanked 90 Times in 76 Posts iTrader Rating: (7/100% )	Unlikely, but easy to check, how about the starter?

11-13-2007, 03:15 PM	#18 (permalink)
fosley Some Skills Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 91 Thanks: 0 Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts iTrader Rating: (1/100% )	The starter won't affect it turning by hand. Even if it were stuck in the "out" position, the one-way clutch/ratchet/whatever-they-use device would let the motor spin one way and not the other, or it would spin both directions fine because that device is broke, or it would spin neither direction because that device is broke. Given the starter/flywheel ratio, even if the starter were stuck so it would only spin so far, it would lock the engine well before 180° (more like 5°).