Turning bad luck into another upgrade

mrturrari · 04-07-2008, 01:26 AM

I haven't been on much lately because I've been swamped with work and in between working on the car. Here's the story:

About three weeks ago I was getting off the freeway and my car suddenly started acting like it only had three cylinders. I limped it up to my dad's house a few miles away and there started trying to find the cause. Checked ignition, fuel, timing, the SMT6 and everything checked out so I did a compression check. Cylinder 2 showed nothing... natta... zip. Knew then that is was not just going to be a minor fix. Next I pulled the valve cover and everything looked fine from the top. So I cranked the engine around so the valves would be closed on cylinder 2 and did a crude leak down where I wrapped a plastic bag around an air hose and stuffed it down the spark plug tube. (Ghetto engineering) It took a minute to figure out where the air was escaping... out the number 4 spark plug tube?!?! Turns out that the exhaust valves were open on 4 and so I knew then I had a valve problem on the exhaust side of cylinder 2.

Two and a half hours later, I had the head pulled and I observed the carnage... I had dropped a seat and that cylinder looked like it had been running lean while the others looked overly rich. The seat had pounded the head pretty good but luckily only just barely nicked the piston. The head though is toast and has cracks between the seats and spark plugs. I could only guess what had happened at that point but I had my suspicions. Next day the injectors went out to Witchhunter to be cleaned and flow tested.

When I got them back it partly confirmed what I had suspected, one of them had been down about 7% which probably caused the temps to rise in that cylinder. The head had been through a lot though including some detonation that cracked ring lands when I was experimenting with a big turbo and no wideband before I knew better.

The bigger seats required by the 2mm oversized valves probably also played a factor because it left less material in between but I don't think that by itself caused the failure.

Lucky me, I had a spare head that I bought off ebay for the cams to send to Webcams but of course it is just a stock 3sfe head so I couldn't have any of that.

If it weren't for the machine shop being so busy with the weather changing and racing season upon us I would have it in the car by now but they should have it finished this coming week. This time around I am using Manley 2jz valves, they measure 2mm bigger then the stock ones while the Ferreas I had before were 2.5mm larger and this time we left the stock seats in place so they just barely fit. The seats and throats were opened up under the valve to make it flow well with the new size. I also did the porting this time just like I did on the last one but I have learned a few things since then. Especially when it comes to deshrouding the valves I know I did much better this time and the valves are a better design then the ferreas so everything should flow even better.

I'll post pics when I get the head back with the valves done and some pics of the carnage I took that night. I've been meaning to dyno this car ever since I put the cams in last November. Maybe this will encourage me to get it done before something else happens.

wagonis · 04-07-2008, 01:31 AM

Wow, that sounds like a bitch but glad to see it turned out for the better. Keep us posted.

mrturrari · 04-07-2008, 08:44 PM

Carnage pics:

Mister2.2 · 04-07-2008, 09:14 PM

Damn. When did you have it turboed? Thought it was always NA.

mrturrari · 04-07-2008, 09:45 PM

Last time was a couple of years ago when I was playing with a 50trim t3/t04. It worked for about three weeks before I started sucking oil through the PCV because of broken ring lands. Now that I think about it I did have the wideband then and everything looked fine but the rev2 5sfe computer sometimes does it's own thing so it would have been a good idea to run it richer then I did. Live and learn... that's what this car is though is a way for me to play with this kind of stuff. It was NA for a year before that and before that I had run a ct-26 for 6 months or so off and on.

wagonis · 04-07-2008, 11:13 PM

Damn, that looks all sorts of nasty.

mrturrari · 04-13-2008, 03:56 AM

Well the car is back together and everything seems good mechanically. My old problem with ignition noise disrupting the SMT6 has returned. I'm probably going to need to spend some time tracking that down and dialing in the tune but it is drivable and running a little on the rich side.

What I did to the head was:

I port matched it to my intake manifold which in this case is the same as the gasket. Having it that big might hurt flow a tiny little bit but what was done is done and it is better not to have any steps in the intake. The 5sfe intake ports are pretty big already so not a lot needs to be removed. I also smoothed out any edges and casting marks and tried to make a smooth transition along the port. (Smooth meaning no unnecessary slowing down or speeding up of the airflow) This head had a lot of casting flaws which were too deep to completely remove but nothing that should pose a problem. I also rounded the short side radius near the valve as much as I could to help the air turn the corner. It was pretty square to start with. Other then that I didn't touch the short side. An improvement could possibly be made by filling in the floor of the 5sfe intake ports to give a more gradual turn and then widening it or heightening it an equal amount of volume to smooth air flow back out but I wasn't that ambitious. Right now it's a pretty straight shot until the last 1/4-1/2" or so before the valve.

The exhaust ports were enlarged too all the way out but not port matched so there is a step. The short side radius was rounded just like the intake ports near the valve but other then that the short side was left alone. This also creates a larger step at the bottom where it meets the header which is supposed to help with reversion.

The stock valve seats were machined so the 45* angle was moved outward to exactly match the 45* on the larger 1mm OS valves (actually they measure 1.5mm bigger exhaust and 2mm bigger intake) and the other two angles were cut from there. There is almost no 30* on the stock seats because these valves are only slightly smaller then the OD of the seat. The 30* in the aluminum was blended into the chamber. The 60* (I might have the angle wrong) only goes as far as the bottom of the seat and blends into the bowl from there which was slightly enlarged. There were some deep casting marks which I just smoothed out. For the most part I tried to just make everything proportionally bigger from the bowl all the way out the port to match the larger valve.

For the combustion chambers I marked on the head where the sides of the cylinders would be and deshrouded the valves out to that point (the guys at my machine shop recommended this). The cutting was done with a round bit so flow around the valve would be as smooth as possible. Doing this removed some quench area in trade for more flow under the short side. The idea is to use more of the area around the valve at lower lifts (makes your cams act a little bigger then they are). It also removes some of the step the air must pass as it flows in or out of the cylinder. I didn't want to take that idea too far though so I only removed the step where the valve is closest to the cylinder wall. It's basically deshrouded the same distance all the way around.

So that is what I did. I'm not claiming that this will add any power or anything but it should in theory. I'm not an expert on head porting by any stretch of the imagination. lol

Here are some pics before I put it all together:

PHOENIX · 04-13-2008, 05:22 AM

thats awesome jeff, very clean work

mrturrari · 04-13-2008, 12:18 PM

Thanks Dave. We'll have to go for a cruise when you get back to the states... you in Phoenix with the new BEAMS and me in the Dragon with a built 5sfe.

Speaking of which are you going to be adding the turbo when you first put it in or waiting until later? Just need to know how I should set mine up. lol

Redfox · 04-13-2008, 01:36 PM

mrturrari where did you buy thoese valves link plz.thinking of changing my stock ones on my 5sf. Nice work on the valve change too, on the first pic they dont even look like they fit properly and the engine valves and block look nasty lol

mrturrari · 04-13-2008, 02:43 PM

The valves were ordered directly from Manley by my machine shop. They matched the best price I could find online though which was about $17 each. Ferreas are a little cheaper but don't have the reputation Manley has. I believe too that Weasy2k could get them for you. He sells them for V6s. You can also buy them from Import Performance Parts - Import Performance Engine & Racing Parts but you will have to make a special request to only get 8 of each. Remember rev1 5sfes get 3sgte valves and rev2 get 2jz.

04-07-2008, 01:26 AM	#1 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Turning bad luck into another upgrade I haven't been on much lately because I've been swamped with work and in between working on the car. Here's the story: About three weeks ago I was getting off the freeway and my car suddenly started acting like it only had three cylinders. I limped it up to my dad's house a few miles away and there started trying to find the cause. Checked ignition, fuel, timing, the SMT6 and everything checked out so I did a compression check. Cylinder 2 showed nothing... natta... zip. Knew then that is was not just going to be a minor fix. Next I pulled the valve cover and everything looked fine from the top. So I cranked the engine around so the valves would be closed on cylinder 2 and did a crude leak down where I wrapped a plastic bag around an air hose and stuffed it down the spark plug tube. (Ghetto engineering) It took a minute to figure out where the air was escaping... out the number 4 spark plug tube?!?! Turns out that the exhaust valves were open on 4 and so I knew then I had a valve problem on the exhaust side of cylinder 2. Two and a half hours later, I had the head pulled and I observed the carnage... I had dropped a seat and that cylinder looked like it had been running lean while the others looked overly rich. The seat had pounded the head pretty good but luckily only just barely nicked the piston. The head though is toast and has cracks between the seats and spark plugs. I could only guess what had happened at that point but I had my suspicions. Next day the injectors went out to Witchhunter to be cleaned and flow tested. When I got them back it partly confirmed what I had suspected, one of them had been down about 7% which probably caused the temps to rise in that cylinder. The head had been through a lot though including some detonation that cracked ring lands when I was experimenting with a big turbo and no wideband before I knew better. The bigger seats required by the 2mm oversized valves probably also played a factor because it left less material in between but I don't think that by itself caused the failure. Lucky me, I had a spare head that I bought off ebay for the cams to send to Webcams but of course it is just a stock 3sfe head so I couldn't have any of that. If it weren't for the machine shop being so busy with the weather changing and racing season upon us I would have it in the car by now but they should have it finished this coming week. This time around I am using Manley 2jz valves, they measure 2mm bigger then the stock ones while the Ferreas I had before were 2.5mm larger and this time we left the stock seats in place so they just barely fit. The seats and throats were opened up under the valve to make it flow well with the new size. I also did the porting this time just like I did on the last one but I have learned a few things since then. Especially when it comes to deshrouding the valves I know I did much better this time and the valves are a better design then the ferreas so everything should flow even better. I'll post pics when I get the head back with the valves done and some pics of the carnage I took that night. I've been meaning to dyno this car ever since I put the cams in last November. Maybe this will encourage me to get it done before something else happens.

04-07-2008, 09:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mister2.2 Cheese it! Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 6,220 Thanks: 106 Thanked 107 Times in 92 Posts Blog Entries: 1 My Google Map iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	Damn. When did you have it turboed? Thought it was always NA. __________________ --Josh MR2Trader.com Free Accounts to Buy and Sell your MR2 Parts! Deal of the Week: MR2Only Magazine, Get it NOW! Click Here. Ask me about Web Hosting Solutions, starting at $5.95 a month. 'I am at two with nature.' 'Students achieving Oneness will move on to Twoness.'

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04-07-2008, 01:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
wagonis Cage Fighter Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Tampa Bay area, FL Posts: 810 Thanks: 43 Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Wow, that sounds like a bitch but glad to see it turned out for the better. Keep us posted.

04-07-2008, 08:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Carnage pics:

04-07-2008, 09:45 PM	#5 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Last time was a couple of years ago when I was playing with a 50trim t3/t04. It worked for about three weeks before I started sucking oil through the PCV because of broken ring lands. Now that I think about it I did have the wideband then and everything looked fine but the rev2 5sfe computer sometimes does it's own thing so it would have been a good idea to run it richer then I did. Live and learn... that's what this car is though is a way for me to play with this kind of stuff. It was NA for a year before that and before that I had run a ct-26 for 6 months or so off and on.

04-07-2008, 11:13 PM	#6 (permalink)
wagonis Cage Fighter Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Tampa Bay area, FL Posts: 810 Thanks: 43 Thanked 13 Times in 13 Posts iTrader Rating: (4/100% )	Damn, that looks all sorts of nasty.

04-13-2008, 03:56 AM	#7 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Well the car is back together and everything seems good mechanically. My old problem with ignition noise disrupting the SMT6 has returned. I'm probably going to need to spend some time tracking that down and dialing in the tune but it is drivable and running a little on the rich side. What I did to the head was: I port matched it to my intake manifold which in this case is the same as the gasket. Having it that big might hurt flow a tiny little bit but what was done is done and it is better not to have any steps in the intake. The 5sfe intake ports are pretty big already so not a lot needs to be removed. I also smoothed out any edges and casting marks and tried to make a smooth transition along the port. (Smooth meaning no unnecessary slowing down or speeding up of the airflow) This head had a lot of casting flaws which were too deep to completely remove but nothing that should pose a problem. I also rounded the short side radius near the valve as much as I could to help the air turn the corner. It was pretty square to start with. Other then that I didn't touch the short side. An improvement could possibly be made by filling in the floor of the 5sfe intake ports to give a more gradual turn and then widening it or heightening it an equal amount of volume to smooth air flow back out but I wasn't that ambitious. Right now it's a pretty straight shot until the last 1/4-1/2" or so before the valve. The exhaust ports were enlarged too all the way out but not port matched so there is a step. The short side radius was rounded just like the intake ports near the valve but other then that the short side was left alone. This also creates a larger step at the bottom where it meets the header which is supposed to help with reversion. The stock valve seats were machined so the 45* angle was moved outward to exactly match the 45* on the larger 1mm OS valves (actually they measure 1.5mm bigger exhaust and 2mm bigger intake) and the other two angles were cut from there. There is almost no 30* on the stock seats because these valves are only slightly smaller then the OD of the seat. The 30* in the aluminum was blended into the chamber. The 60* (I might have the angle wrong) only goes as far as the bottom of the seat and blends into the bowl from there which was slightly enlarged. There were some deep casting marks which I just smoothed out. For the most part I tried to just make everything proportionally bigger from the bowl all the way out the port to match the larger valve. For the combustion chambers I marked on the head where the sides of the cylinders would be and deshrouded the valves out to that point (the guys at my machine shop recommended this). The cutting was done with a round bit so flow around the valve would be as smooth as possible. Doing this removed some quench area in trade for more flow under the short side. The idea is to use more of the area around the valve at lower lifts (makes your cams act a little bigger then they are). It also removes some of the step the air must pass as it flows in or out of the cylinder. I didn't want to take that idea too far though so I only removed the step where the valve is closest to the cylinder wall. It's basically deshrouded the same distance all the way around. So that is what I did. I'm not claiming that this will add any power or anything but it should in theory. I'm not an expert on head porting by any stretch of the imagination. lol Here are some pics before I put it all together:

04-13-2008, 05:22 AM	#8 (permalink)
PHOENIX Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Tachikawa, Japan Posts: 7,254 Thanks: 71 Thanked 216 Times in 163 Posts Blog Entries: 1 My Google Map iTrader Rating: (39/100% )	thats awesome jeff, very clean work

04-13-2008, 12:18 PM	#9 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Thanks Dave. We'll have to go for a cruise when you get back to the states... you in Phoenix with the new BEAMS and me in the Dragon with a built 5sfe. Speaking of which are you going to be adding the turbo when you first put it in or waiting until later? Just need to know how I should set mine up. lol

04-13-2008, 01:36 PM	#10 (permalink)
Redfox No Skills Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Modesto CA Posts: 46 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	mrturrari where did you buy thoese valves link plz.thinking of changing my stock ones on my 5sf. Nice work on the valve change too, on the first pic they dont even look like they fit properly and the engine valves and block look nasty lol

04-13-2008, 02:43 PM	#11 (permalink)
mrturrari I <3 my 5sfe Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 403 Thanks: 2 Thanked 87 Times in 57 Posts iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	The valves were ordered directly from Manley by my machine shop. They matched the best price I could find online though which was about $17 each. Ferreas are a little cheaper but don't have the reputation Manley has. I believe too that Weasy2k could get them for you. He sells them for V6s. You can also buy them from Import Performance Parts - Import Performance Engine & Racing Parts but you will have to make a special request to only get 8 of each. Remember rev1 5sfes get 3sgte valves and rev2 get 2jz.