Getting power from a 5SFE without forced induction

[kbrew8991]

difference between static and dynamic compression ratios

[Mark_Dorman]

^ meaning???

[fvillota]

great exactly what i wanted and been looking for! thanks!

[kbrew8991]

Originally Posted by Mark_Dorman

^ meaning???

Originally Posted by mrturrari

Something to think about too is that higher duration cams decrease compression at lower RPMs while increasing peak cylinder pressures at higher ones. So if you both increase compression and install some performance cams, you can probably run lower octane fuel. How much lower I am not sure but it is the reason you see engines at 12.5:1 running on pump fuel. Their cams are big enough that detonation is less of a problem.

thats just the terms that are used to describe each

[Mark_Dorman]

Oh...I see...I thought that was in response to my post after mrturrari's.

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by Mark_Dorman

So I was thinking about just doing the webcams 294 grind and running 10.8:1 compression pistons with a .020 overbore. I talked to (message convo) kentsvision, the guy who made 148.3 whp from his 5sfe, and he said he ran a lower compression (because he was originally going to go turbo) with the stock ecu. If you think the higher compression wouldn't require serious tuning then I think I'll end up going that route. I'm gonna assume I should hit over 150whp with a mild port and polish and a basic supporting setup. If I could run 87 or 89 octane with that setup without detonation I'd be stoked. So you don't think that'd be a problem with a mild cam and higher (but not too high) CR??? Thanks...

In my opinion it would take a longer duration then the 294 to really have the effect of letting you use a full grade lower octane fuel but still you might be able to use 89. We don't have a lot of data for high compression 5sfes to pull from. You'll just have to see on that one. Remember that the only 5sfes to get near 150rwhp so far are tuned. You should at least be in the 140s though.

[Mark_Dorman]

^ The gas octane would just be a perk...I know a little bit of dyno tuning would be necessary but if kentsvision can make 148whp with an untuned stock ecu and low compression, I think I can make at least that much running a higher compression. We'll just have to wait and see. I just don't want to run a piggy back or stand alone system. I'll make a thread when I start my build. I think I'm gonna be doing the build along with Honda_Bar.

I think I'm gonna have to set my goal at 155 whp at least...I know I'll get a lot of flak for that but I could use the challenge

[honda_bar]

I will be happy getting into the forties! Mark, I have been doing my homework....................reading and learning

[mrturrari]

I think some may be missing the point... please read the first post again. We have seen time and time again that if you start with mild cams you will have mild results. Get the cams to match your goals and build everything else around them. This is the trap that the 5sfe community has been in since the beginning. If you start with cams that can't outrun the fuel system then you will never make more power then the fuel system was designed for. Unfortunately that means you have to make a leap. You must upgrade the fuel system at the same time you upgrade the cams. That is what the performance build is. Once you make that leap all of your other mods will have more effect and it goes up from there. Now someone might be able to hit 150rwhp with the 294 cams but it is going to be tuned and it will be a lot more work.

By the way Kentsvison's mod list included tuning with a piggy back and larger injectors.

[honda_bar]

WANTED: mild build, also throw in a p&p. A header would be nice but would have to disguise it, and a custom catback would also be nice. Mark and I have to deal with CARB like I said, but there are WAYS I guess. We wanted to do a similar build at the same time and avoid an ECU retune or piggyback...

[honda_bar]

Found this just searching around the net..........

Posted by: Tony the Tiger

As you progress into internal mods for all motor, it doesn't get any more reliable than a low boost setup with a S/C or turbo.

To make good power NA, you usually run the following basic upgrades:

- higher compression pistons (depending how high)
- more aggressive cams -- street, race, pure drag, etc...)
- better top-end parts (valvetrain, ported head, running higher redline)
- etc...

When you have bigger cams, your car will not run properly at lower RPM's usually... You will have a chance to fail your emissions. You will also have a narrower powerband in most cases. If you opted for mild street cams, the improvement is almost negligible... The choice is yours, and that choice will be based on how much you really understand the motor.

When you get into upgraded valvetrain, there will be more stress to neighbouring stock valvetrain components. Stiffer valvesprings will allow higher lift and duration cams and more redline. but they also put more stress on lifters/rockers, and more wear and tear. How much redline will you need based on your cam selection is the key... What specs of valvesprings do you want to run? Too stiff you will break things...too soft you will float your valves. This is another choice that you will need to make based on how much you know.

Power is power... once you reach a certain power level on smaller displacement motors, there is no such thing as better reliability from being all motor, or turbo, etc...... Reliability comes from how well you build the car and how well it is tuned. Forced induction seems unreliable in most cases because they make a lot more power than most all motor setups... but honestly, high engine RPM kills motors faster than anything.

My suggestion would be save up the money and rebuild your stock motor... just a fresh stock rebuild... Then buy a Rippmods supercharger and run their low boost setup. That is easily 160WHP of reliable power

[Mark_Dorman]

hum...guess I should set my goals lower. Maybe just the overbore and only raising the compression to 10:1 would be better. I really don't want to do a piggyback and/or major tuning (I feel like this is where things get really expensive). I can live with 140 to the wheels easily and spend the rest of the money on weight reduction. I wanna drop at least 100 lbs without sacrificing comfort (I know it's a fine line to walk), but I think I can make it all work

[mrturrari]

Cool. Sorry if I misunderstood your situations. I would first do the 294 cams and the cat back exhaust and see where you sit. Higher compression and over boring does give you a little but you will have to decide if it is worth the cost of rebuilding the motor. With 4 cylinders it's not very much of a displacement increase and the higher CR only gives you a few percent. Those kind of mods start having more effect when you make your power higher up in the RPMs because of the relationship of torque and horsepower and because of the properties of the larger cams.

[Mark_Dorman]

I see...I was considering rebuilding the motor anyways so I figured I'd do that while I was at it but I haven't completely decided yet. I'll need to get a compression test first to see where I sit and if the engine is solid I'll just do the head work with cams and the exhaust and intake. If I don't need to rebuild and I won't be able to make that much power on the stock ecu I think I'll just stick to a top end rebuild. If I wasn't in Cali it'd be a different story but we have emissions Nazi's down here and gas prices aren't making me want too much more power as it is. Thanks for all the input...I'm sure I'll end up saving a lot of time and money thanks to your advice (slash talking some sense into me).

Do the piston rings on the 5sfe hold up pretty well in the long run?

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by honda_bar

Found this just searching around the net..........

Posted by: Tony the Tiger

As you progress into internal mods for all motor, it doesn't get any more reliable than a low boost setup with a S/C or turbo.

To make good power NA, you usually run the following basic upgrades:

- higher compression pistons (depending how high)
- more aggressive cams -- street, race, pure drag, etc...)
- better top-end parts (valvetrain, ported head, running higher redline)
- etc...

When you have bigger cams, your car will not run properly at lower RPM's usually... You will have a chance to fail your emissions. You will also have a narrower powerband in most cases. If you opted for mild street cams, the improvement is almost negligible... The choice is yours, and that choice will be based on how much you really understand the motor.

When you get into upgraded valvetrain, there will be more stress to neighbouring stock valvetrain components. Stiffer valvesprings will allow higher lift and duration cams and more redline. but they also put more stress on lifters/rockers, and more wear and tear. How much redline will you need based on your cam selection is the key... What specs of valvesprings do you want to run? Too stiff you will break things...too soft you will float your valves. This is another choice that you will need to make based on how much you know.

Power is power... once you reach a certain power level on smaller displacement motors, there is no such thing as better reliability from being all motor, or turbo, etc...... Reliability comes from how well you build the car and how well it is tuned. Forced induction seems unreliable in most cases because they make a lot more power than most all motor setups... but honestly, high engine RPM kills motors faster than anything.

My suggestion would be save up the money and rebuild your stock motor... just a fresh stock rebuild... Then buy a Rippmods supercharger and run their low boost setup. That is easily 160WHP of reliable power

Good stuff. The kind of cams they are talking about which make it not run properly and not pass emissions will be 101s (272 AD and even those might be ok) and above. Just remember that even the mods I list under the Performance Build are just street level mods and if done right will not significantly effect reliability if they are installed correctly with all the right supporting mods to go with them.

Don't get me started about the Rippmods supercharger.

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by Mark_Dorman

Thanks for all the input...I'm sure I'll end up saving a lot of time and money thanks to your advice (slash talking some sense into me).

I really just hope we can see more people making more power with the 5sfe. Good luck with your build.

Originally Posted by Mark_Dorman

Do the piston rings on the 5sfe hold up pretty well in the long run?

Yes the stock ones go forever. If you rebuild though make sure you get Moly or Nitride rings. Many companies will sell you a cast iron top ring and it doesn't last as long. Cast iron is ok for the second ring though.

[Mark_Dorman]

So the likely hood of really needing to rebuild the motor is very small yeah??? I guess I'll save the money and put it towards weight reduction and suspension (mine is shot).

[mrturrari]

Originally Posted by Mark_Dorman

So the likely hood of really needing to rebuild the motor is very small yeah??? I guess I'll save the money and put it towards weight reduction and suspension (mine is shot).

Well compression check it to be sure but yeah these motors take a lot of abuse. If your rings were gone you would probably be seeing smoke or a big drop off in power too. It's always good to know you are starting with a healthy motor before you start adding power.