Slightly random 3sge question???

Mark_Dorman · 07-15-2008, 11:54 AM

So I know you can put a 3sgte head on a 5sfe to make a "5sgte"...but I was wondering if you could put a 3rd or 4th generation 3sge head on a 5s? Would that require a 3sge ecu to run? I was thinking about it because the 5sfe's head flows pretty crappy but the 3s (2nd-4th gen) seems to have better flow characteristics. I don't want to do a swap because of california smog regulations.

mr220v · 07-15-2008, 12:12 PM

Using a 3sge head would be considered a swap. If you used a 2nd gen head, you might be able to tell them you had a turbo and just took it off. You can use 3rd gen and beams heads on a 5s block (the beams with more difficulty) but there'd be no chance of getting by a california visual inspection.

It's not that swaps are the only thing illegal in California, it's that nearly any internal modification is illegal. The modded 5s guys rely on the fact that most of their mods are hidden, or not very obvious whereas an engine swap will be completely obvious.

Either way you go, if your mod is not carb certifiied, you're breaking the law according to the california authorities.

Mark_Dorman · 07-15-2008, 12:27 PM

I just realized what I asked. I wouldn't want to do a beams head because of the vvti and it is a bit more obvious. You really think they could tell the difference if I swapped a 3rd generation 3sge head onto the block? Some places aren't that anal.

So does that mean I'd need a 3rd gen ecu to run the head/cams? What else would I need besides the head, ecu, and new headers?

mr220v · 07-15-2008, 01:02 PM

Your better bet would be a 2nd gen head. It retains usdm parts availability, and would be easier to fit with egr (maybe). Also, it looks just like a usdm 3sgte, just with a different intake manifold, and no turbo. Maybe you could convince a shop that you just removed your turbo?

In stock form, the difference between a gen2 and 3 is cams and compression. With a 5sge you'd need custom or aftermarket pistons anyway, so you'd get to choose your compression rate, so the only difference in this case would be a somewhat hotter cam.

Also, for exhaust, a 5s header will fit a gen2 head. So there would be no exhaust fab problems.

You would need a gen2 engine wiring harness, ecu, and 4 wire o2.

Mark_Dorman · 07-15-2008, 01:09 PM

So I found a lot of info on this subject on a celica forum. Seems like a huge pain for not much gain. It looks like I would need the head, electronics, wiring harness, ecu, while still having to do some modification to fit it. Way more expensive than I thought it might be. I'll just port and polish my head and be done with it

If anyone is interested here are the threads:

CelicaTech

CelicaTech

Mark_Dorman · 07-15-2008, 01:09 PM

So I found a lot of info on this subject on a celica forum. Seems like a huge pain for not much gain. It looks like I would need the head, electronics, wiring harness, ecu, while still having to do some modification to fit it. Way more expensive than I thought it might be. I'll just port and polish my head and be done with it

If anyone is interested here are the threads:

CelicaTech

CelicaTech

mr220v · 07-15-2008, 01:23 PM

Yeah, it's not real easy or real cheap.

Best bet is to either get a 3sge, or do what toms says and get some cams for your 5s. He says cams before all else.

Mark_Dorman · 07-15-2008, 01:28 PM

Yeah...that's my plan. I'm gonna do the 294 webcams, port and polish the head a little, do some port matching, gasket matching, 58mm TB (mine is 55mm), and full exhaust. I think I'm gonna do it all at once. I know the gains won't be huge, but it'll be enough for me and it shouldn't cost too much

honda_bar · 07-15-2008, 11:11 PM

hot august nite

OldSkool · 07-23-2008, 07:29 PM

Cali emissions are not that tough, I did a complete engine pkg. for a guy in 99
and passed easily, but used all heavily massaged stock parts except the throttle
body, it was off another same brand engine... Cam, intakes, TB, ported heads...
and a tune by a local shop.

07-15-2008, 11:54 AM	#1 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman SoCal MR2 Revival!!! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 422 Thanks: 29 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	Slightly random 3sge question??? So I know you can put a 3sgte head on a 5sfe to make a "5sgte"...but I was wondering if you could put a 3rd or 4th generation 3sge head on a 5s? Would that require a 3sge ecu to run? I was thinking about it because the 5sfe's head flows pretty crappy but the 3s (2nd-4th gen) seems to have better flow characteristics. I don't want to do a swap because of california smog regulations.

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07-15-2008, 12:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 73 Times in 61 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	Using a 3sge head would be considered a swap. If you used a 2nd gen head, you might be able to tell them you had a turbo and just took it off. You can use 3rd gen and beams heads on a 5s block (the beams with more difficulty) but there'd be no chance of getting by a california visual inspection. It's not that swaps are the only thing illegal in California, it's that nearly any internal modification is illegal. The modded 5s guys rely on the fact that most of their mods are hidden, or not very obvious whereas an engine swap will be completely obvious. Either way you go, if your mod is not carb certifiied, you're breaking the law according to the california authorities.

07-15-2008, 12:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman SoCal MR2 Revival!!! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 422 Thanks: 29 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	I just realized what I asked. I wouldn't want to do a beams head because of the vvti and it is a bit more obvious. You really think they could tell the difference if I swapped a 3rd generation 3sge head onto the block? Some places aren't that anal. So does that mean I'd need a 3rd gen ecu to run the head/cams? What else would I need besides the head, ecu, and new headers?

07-15-2008, 01:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 73 Times in 61 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	Your better bet would be a 2nd gen head. It retains usdm parts availability, and would be easier to fit with egr (maybe). Also, it looks just like a usdm 3sgte, just with a different intake manifold, and no turbo. Maybe you could convince a shop that you just removed your turbo? In stock form, the difference between a gen2 and 3 is cams and compression. With a 5sge you'd need custom or aftermarket pistons anyway, so you'd get to choose your compression rate, so the only difference in this case would be a somewhat hotter cam. Also, for exhaust, a 5s header will fit a gen2 head. So there would be no exhaust fab problems. You would need a gen2 engine wiring harness, ecu, and 4 wire o2.

07-15-2008, 01:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman SoCal MR2 Revival!!! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 422 Thanks: 29 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	So I found a lot of info on this subject on a celica forum. Seems like a huge pain for not much gain. It looks like I would need the head, electronics, wiring harness, ecu, while still having to do some modification to fit it. Way more expensive than I thought it might be. I'll just port and polish my head and be done with it If anyone is interested here are the threads: CelicaTech CelicaTech

07-15-2008, 01:09 PM	#6 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman SoCal MR2 Revival!!! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 422 Thanks: 29 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	So I found a lot of info on this subject on a celica forum. Seems like a huge pain for not much gain. It looks like I would need the head, electronics, wiring harness, ecu, while still having to do some modification to fit it. Way more expensive than I thought it might be. I'll just port and polish my head and be done with it If anyone is interested here are the threads: CelicaTech CelicaTech

07-15-2008, 01:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
mr220v Beams Owners Group Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,109 Thanks: 13 Thanked 73 Times in 61 Posts iTrader Rating: (6/100% )	Yeah, it's not real easy or real cheap. Best bet is to either get a 3sge, or do what toms says and get some cams for your 5s. He says cams before all else.

07-15-2008, 01:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mark_Dorman SoCal MR2 Revival!!! Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 422 Thanks: 29 Thanked 6 Times in 6 Posts iTrader Rating: (3/100% )	Yeah...that's my plan. I'm gonna do the 294 webcams, port and polish the head a little, do some port matching, gasket matching, 58mm TB (mine is 55mm), and full exhaust. I think I'm gonna do it all at once. I know the gains won't be huge, but it'll be enough for me and it shouldn't cost too much

07-15-2008, 11:11 PM	#9 (permalink)
honda_bar skills Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Pasadena, CA Posts: 166 Thanks: 21 Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post iTrader Rating: (2/100% )	hot august nite

07-23-2008, 07:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
OldSkool Some Skills Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: B-Town, Indiana Posts: 50 Thanks: 8 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts My Google Map iTrader Rating: (0/0% )	Cali emissions are not that tough, I did a complete engine pkg. for a guy in 99 and passed easily, but used all heavily massaged stock parts except the throttle body, it was off another same brand engine... Cam, intakes, TB, ported heads... and a tune by a local shop.